Author Topic: Another Betson AVGA problem (Read 3061 times)

danenick · « **on:** April 05, 2005, 07:46:46 pm »

I just got my multisync and AVGA this week. Once I installed the card and drivers and loggend into windows my desktop was slightly bowed. There is a curvature to the screen that isnt there when I run my dreamcast on the monitor. Once I run any games in Mame32, the screensize is all out of wack. None of the resolutions fit the screen properly. Is it always that you have to adjust the resolutions once you get the card, or am I doing something wrong. Also I think I have a BIOS issue with the card as when I try to edit the BIOS the monitor just flashes a 41.something kHz, so I am assuming I am out of range. Im running an ASUS P4T533 mobo and Win2k, sp4 with the latest AVGA drivers.

itguy · « **Reply #1 on:** April 07, 2005, 12:19:27 pm »

You may want to try the MAME Resolution Tool. You can get it from the MAMEWAH site

http://mamewah.mameworld.net/index.htm

This utility allowed games to be displayed to be properly displayed on my Beston. You can creates ini files for diff games or groups of games (running with the same resolution). I'm running MAME windows with MAMEWah frontend.

What resolution are you running your desktop? I've had no problems with my desktop at 640x480 (XP SP1).

I'm not sure about not being able to see your bios. You might want to put a regular video card back in and check the bios settings for any potential conflicts using a computer monitor.

Good luck.

danenick · « **Reply #2 on:** April 10, 2005, 11:50:15 am »

Thanks for the advice. I've switched to Mamewah, with pretty good success. I did a frest OS install and still have some geometry issuses, I think. It may be because of the tube. The thing that throws me off is that when there is a vertical scrolling game, it sorta looks like the screen is rolling over a hill. I can take some video of it, but Im sure you know what I mean. Im still new with mamewah so Im trying to use Screamings setup utility and the mame res tool, but I get errors with both. I gotta keep trying. Another thing that is wierd is when I run any MK game, I get a flashing screen, because Im at 48.7~ kHz, 60hz. It's way out of range. Hopefully once I get the res tool to run, itll all come together.

danenick · « **Reply #3 on:** April 19, 2005, 09:38:46 pm »

Update,
So I have gotten Mamewah and the restools to work, but Im troubled by alot of the poor screen geometry. Maybe this is a quick fix, but it has me puzzled. The first problem being, as a stated earlier, a slight bowing of the windows desktop and all windows displayed, here
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/homegrone0/detail?.dir=ce17&.dnm=4fae.jpg&.src=ph
Secondly, when I start any of the MK Series or alot of other games, the geometry is horrible. http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/homegrone0/detail?.dir=ce17&.dnm=9600.jpg&.src=ph
I can get the screen a little better by adjusting things myself, but even if I get close to lined up, the screen scrolls at different rates near the edges of the screen than at the center of the screen.

Dave_K. · « **Reply #4 on:** April 20, 2005, 02:51:42 am »

Its the monitor. I too have a Betson imperial, and at 15khz the top and bottom are squished somewhat. I was able to limit some of it by going into the operators hidden menu (the purple menu) and playing with the values for hours. Warning: changing the operator defaults could lead to even more headaches...but after a few hours I figured everything out.

Bottom line was that for 15khz I have to zoom it down so it doesn't reach the edges of the screen and its barely acceptable for vertical scrolling games. So you'd have to live with a black border.

Thankfully 31kha-38khz has no geomerty issues. So I mostly use it for DC VGA games for this cab.

danenick · « **Reply #5 on:** April 20, 2005, 08:55:35 am »

Are you sure that every Betson Multisync does this? Even my wife, who isnt a gamer noticed. I already tried the service menu Vert and Horiz Line values, but that just stretched the warped area or shrank it. At this point, I don't think that zooming the screen down is an option. I really don't want to lose any screen real estate. I thought there were vert, horiz, and focus pots on the back of the monitor, but the pots I found controlled the focus (one), brightness (two), and the third did nothing. I still think I'm missing something. Thanks so far for the help though. If I can't figure this out theres always the D9200.

AndyWarne · « **Reply #6 on:** April 20, 2005, 02:25:52 pm »

This would not be the ArcadeVGA card. It must be a monitor issue.
If you consider any monitor, even a PC monitor, you will find that the picture initially distorts when the horizontal frequency is changed. This is because of the dynamics of the horizontal scan system, and the anti-pincushion adjustment, which basically feeds a sample of the vertical signal into the horizontal.
The distortion is corrected by adjusting the settings and on a multi-frequency monitor (including all PC monitors) the settings are stored in EEPROM for each range of horizontal frequency.
I would have expected the Betson (Kortek) to have full adjustment of the picture geometry including V-Lin, Trapeziod, Pincushion etc and store the settings in a different EEPROM "slot" for 15 Khz and 31 Khz (and 38). Maybe this is not the case. Is it not possible to get the geometry correct at all or is it a case of get it right for one resolution and it goes out when you switch to another?
I suspect that the monitor is also having a struggle with dealing with the wide range of frequency, from 15 to 38 Khz. This is a lot to ask of any horizontal drive system and I guess the D9200 gets around this by having a better selection of adjustments than the Kortek. The D9200 is limited to 31 K as well, so less of a range to have to deal with.
Andy

danenick · « **Reply #7 on:** April 21, 2005, 12:38:34 am »

Thanks for the prompt reply Andy. At any rate, I figured it wasnt the AVGA card when I was getting the same result with my other ATI card. I was hoping that maybe you have heard of this problem before and maybe knew a soultion or could point me in the right direction. Actually, I'm going to try the Betson techs to see if they know what could be happening. If it is something I can change over the phone I will, if not Ill have to see what they say about replacing the monitor. What makes me think it may be a maladjusted setting is like I said earlier, my dreamcast outputs a 640X480, 31.5khz signal and the geometry is perfect, but my desktop at 800X600, 37.8khz and all resolutions below 800X600 and 38khz are off and have the odd scrolling problem. Even when I use mame32 with all games using 640X480 and 31.5khz, all the resolutions are off. I cant change the resolution of the dreamcast so I cant really narrow it down to which resoultions are true and which are off when it is connected. Looks like its only an issue between the pc and the monitor, which is bad, since thats what will mostly be used on it. Thanks anyways, maybe Ill make some headway with the techs.
Dane

danenick · « **Reply #8 on:** April 21, 2005, 07:55:11 pm »

Update 2:
I talked with a technician from Betson West and a rep from the Kortek factory service team, and ended up exchanging the monitor for a new one today. The factory service rep said the problem could be the yoke or tube calibration problem, but it was hard to tell without seeing the monitor. I had a feeling the monitor was good all along. After I got the new monitor home and set it up, I was not surprised to see the same issues. So the monitor isn't bad, unless there is an entire lot of them with the same problem. This tells me it's a pc problem. I have tried the AVGA card in both pentuim and amd setups, and those setups with a regular radeon and geforce3 video cards and Im getting the same deal with all of them. Only the geforce3 isn't as pronounced as the ati cards are. I'm stumped. Betson quoted me a price of 600$ for a WG D9200. I don't think I'll be getting one from there.

markrvp · « **Reply #9 on:** April 22, 2005, 10:20:00 am »

I have a Betson Imperial 27" multisync and AVGA and have the same Geometry issues. It's got to be the monitor. I have custom set most of my own resolutions and did a lot of tweaking and it's not too bad, now. However, the most annoying thing is that at the top of the screen everything doesn't interface properly.

I'm a little disappointed in the monitor, but it still beats the hell out of a PC VGA monitor. My next monitor for a dedicated MAME cab will probably be a WG 7400.

Buschmaster · « **Reply #10 on:** April 22, 2005, 11:07:48 am »

I have this same issue with my WG9200

http://www.buschmaster.com/forum/?f=3&m=463

I even brought in the screen edges like Kevin from retroblast recommended, but that didn't help any. I'm going to contact WG next week after I have exhausted every other option.

danenick · « **Reply #11 on:** April 22, 2005, 09:18:58 pm »

Mark, I think it has to do with the way the pc and the monitor interface, or how the monitor interprets the signal. Dreamcast=stellar, crisp, awesome picture. PC=booohooohoooo, BAD. I have a D9200 on the way. If the D9200 has the same issues that I had with the Kortek Im going to freaking freak out man! It cant be my PC setup because I tired two different intel modo manufacturers, an AMD mobo, AVGA card, Built by ATI card, Nvidia card, old Trident PCI Card, Pentium II with Voodoo Banshee card. Im at a loss. I have a new Athlon 64 setup on the way, but Im gonna say Ill get the same results with that as well. I need to get this resolved soon cause my slikstik cab and classic panel will be here next week. I damn sure dont wanna be switching monitors once I have everything put together. If any monitor pros are reading this, can you make any suggestions to why this could be occuring with some monitors and not others? I read a thread last night that was made a while back complaining of the same problem. It must have gotten lost in the shuffle, but even on the 2 pages of replies, still no resolve. Thankfully I live 7 miles from Betson West, so the guys there are getting to know me quite well, even if they didnt want to.

markrvp · « **Reply #12 on:** April 23, 2005, 02:16:43 am »

It's frustrating to drop that amount of cash on something that's supposed to be a Cadillac and not work any better than it does.

Dave_K. · « **Reply #13 on:** April 26, 2005, 02:03:09 am »

Danenick, its not the connection or video source. I can try the same DC game at 15khz or 31khz, and still see the geometery problems at 15khz but not at 31khz.

Its the cheap kortek tube/yolk. If you search the forum, there was a very long thread about this when I first got my Betson (in January I believe). They have another problem with screen rotation at the higher resolutions.

I even brought it up to the Betson West location and had the Operations lead take a look at it. We pulled out another brand-new one from a box. Same issues (actually worse with some tearing on one corner at 31khz). I decided to keep the one I had as at least 31-38khz looked fine (no tearing)..and I could live with the slight rotation issue.

danenick · « **Reply #14 on:** April 26, 2005, 08:20:03 am »

Dave, I noticed your thread and referred to it in my previous post, but didn't link it. I didn't have a chance to try the DC with 15khz so I don't know if mine would have the geometry problems at that scan rate. So by what your saying, most Kortek multisync suffer the same problem, or we just happen to keep getting the bad ones?

rchadd · « **Reply #15 on:** April 26, 2005, 06:02:21 pm »

Quote from: markrvp on April 23, 2005, 02:16:43 am

It's frustrating to drop that amount of cash on something that's supposed to be a Cadillac and not work any better than it does.

i agree

do all multisync monitors have these geometry issues?

what is the best? Wells Gardner D9200

Dave_K. · « **Reply #16 on:** April 27, 2005, 02:44:18 am »

All I know is I've herd the same feedback about the 27" betson imperial, so my guess is yes, they all have this same problem.

rchadd, no I don't believe this is a problem with all multisync monitors brands. Kevin at retroblast.com is the only person I know of that has been making side-by-side comparisons. Checkout his site.

danenick · « **Reply #17 on:** May 15, 2005, 01:11:25 am »

Update:
Well, two Sundays ago, I got my cab and panel, and yesterday (Friday, the 13th) I picked up my D9200 from Betson. I got it installed into the cab, and to my surprise, the same effect is happening with the D9200, but only in horizontal scrolling games. The problem is very minor compared to the Kortek monitor, so Ill have to live with it. Actually, when Im mashing buttons I have to detach myself from the game to actually notice it. The odd thing is that it happens with my Dreamcast too, which is unlike the Kortek. I realized something last night as I was laying in bed. I know this is a stretch, but my cab sits in my den directly behind (or infront of, depending if your in or out of the house) my breaker box where the power is brought in from the street. Could this have anything at all to do with what I'm seeing? I'm moving my room around tomorrow, just to do it. I wonder if I'm losing my mind trying to figure out what's going on. I still can't believe that if this is happening often enough to see multiple threads on it, that there isn't a solution of some sort. Anywho, I have some game hours to log in.

Silverwind · « **Reply #18 on:** May 31, 2005, 01:49:54 am »

Quote from: markrvp on April 23, 2005, 02:16:43 am

It's frustrating to drop that amount of cash on something that's supposed to be a Cadillac and not work any better than it does.

I agree... for a while now I have been looking at getting one of the 27" multi-sync arcade monitor variants. I haven't taken the plunge.. but some of the comments on these monitors make me a little uneasy.

The D9200 looked very strong originally.. but i've heard a few bad things about it.. then out came the betson and it seems to have it's own share of problems..

Anyone here have a preference between the two? Perhaps even with their problems they are still the pinnacle of arcade displays?

divemaster127 · « **Reply #19 on:** June 02, 2005, 09:59:36 am »

I have had a betson for about 5 months & it works great, i had talked to kevin at retroblast before i purchased & he likes better than wells gardner plus the monitor supports 800X600 the wells gardner does not...in the 800X600 the picture is great
thanks

nobody · « **Reply #20 on:** June 02, 2005, 10:21:11 am »

Quote from: divemaster127 on June 02, 2005, 09:59:36 am

I have had a betson for about 5 months & it works great, i had talked to kevin at retroblast before i purchased & he likes better than wells gardner plus the monitor supports 800X600 the wells gardner does not...in the 800X600 the picture is great
thanks

but didnt kevin's betson die after 6 months?

divemaster127 · « **Reply #21 on:** June 02, 2005, 10:53:34 am »

he told me he had it repaired under warrenty but & still prefers it over the wells gardner, all i can say is mine has been problem free & looks great in 800X600 plus i purchased it from betson for 360.00 including delivery when it was on sale
thanks

danenick · « **Reply #22 on:** June 02, 2005, 08:04:29 pm »

Well, I've kinda gotten used to the geometry problems I'm experiencing. I took the monitor to a repair shop near my house last week, but when the signal generator was on you couldn't see the problem. Once I hooked up my pc to it and gave the guy an example of what was happening, he couldn't see it at first, then when he saw it he kept saying the timing was off between the videocard and the monitor, even after I told him the AVGA was designed for this monitor. So, until a new multisync monitor comes about, I'm gonna use the D9200. My big problem now is finding a freaking adaptiod that isn't going for near $70 on ebay.

markrvp · « **Reply #23 on:** June 02, 2005, 08:34:46 pm »

You know, I've gotten used to the geometry issues. I wish they weren't there, but the color of the graphics is just incredible. I play some MAME games on my laptop and another computer and everytime I come back to my cab with the Betson Multisync, I think, "man this looks nice." I've got a Wells Gardner 25" arcade monitor that needs repair, and when I get that fixed I'll be curious to see which monitor I like better. I'll have to admit it's a lot of fun to play Tiger Woods Golf and other PC games that require 800x600 VGA resolution at 31khz. That alone is probably reason enough to stick with the multisyncs.

mwoody · « **Reply #24 on:** June 10, 2005, 12:04:19 am »

I think you may have run across the first of the two problems I noted in this thread (the bowing). Note that I even got my monitor replaced in an attempt to fix it, but it only slightly lessened the effect. It's tremendously annoying, particularly at this price point. Unfortunately, I don't have any real suggestions for a fix; just figured I'd chime in and let you know it's at least common enough for me to get two in a row with the same issue.

Dave_K. · « **Reply #25 on:** June 10, 2005, 03:29:39 am »

Just to repeat, for me the only geometry problems are at 15khz. Above that (640x480 or 800x600) is all gee double oh dee good. I'm still pissed I can't play things at true low res, but now I just use the monitor in my dedicated dreamcast cab to play hi-res naomi ports.


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