Landscaping Advice Needed...

[Jabba]

Hi all, I am hoping that there are people "in the landscaping business" or others who are knowledgeable about the subject on the boards that may be able to lend me some advice.

I need to lay soil and seed about an acre of property. Currently, only about a quarter of the property is sodded (when I moved in). The land was graded where I need to place soil/seed, but has a lot of wild plants on it which we current mow down 2-3 times a year.

I've contacted a few landscaping companies and their rates are CRAZY. One guy even quoted me 16K with a straight face.

I was thinking of making this a DO IT YOURSELF project. Rent a Bobcat (something like in the pic), get the soil delivered and buy the seed.

Questions I have are...

1. Am I completely underestimateing the amount of skill/time required to complete this job on my own?

2. Is the Bobcat the way to go, or should I consider some other piece of equipment?

3. Any attachments I should consider for the bobcat/other equipment to make the job easier?

4. Would I need to "till" the weeds before starting?

5. How much soil would I need?

6. How much seed would I need?

7. I live in a somewhat rural area. Could a farmer do this type of work for me more cost effectively?

Any ideas or advice on the above would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance

[DrewKaree]

1. Am I completely underestimateing the amount of skill/time required to complete this job on my own?

No, but we'd probably have it done in less than a day for you.  It may take you the weekend to get close to the same results.  $16k is SILLY, but that's to me.  I don't know the area you live in, and the guy was probably referring to Hydroseeding - if that's the process he recommended, it's not SILLY, but it certainly IS pricier than we'd charge.

2. Is the Bobcat the way to go, or should I consider some other piece of equitment?

What's your time worth?  A bobcat (use the term skidsteer) will work, but you'll want one more attachment on there called a Harley Rake.  That will kinda "even it out" for you and remove a lot of stones you didn't think were there.  I don't know what your cost for renting those two pieces of equipment are, but a skidsteer runs ~ $150-200/day for rental, perhaps more.  The three-day rate will probably be a better price for you in the long run and allow you to not rush through the job and do it better.

If that's too pricey, you seriously can do this with wheelbarrows, shovels, and landscape rakes, it's just gonna take you time and some SERIOUS energy....probably get the topsoil laid and call it a day, and seed the next day/weekend after you've had time to rest.

3. Any attachments I should consider for the bobcat/other equipment to make the job easier?

See #2 answer

4. Would I need to "till" the weeds before starting?

Read the Round-Up label, but spray 'em dead.  Tilling them in will only spread your weeds around the yard, making it that much harder for the grass to establish.  You may have to wait a bit after killing off everything, but then you won't have to worry about established weeds making your job harder.

5. How much soil would I need?

How much needs to be seeded?  When you say you have an acre, does the house sit on that acre, or is it an acre of open land?  A 2" base would be nice to lay down to start a new lawn, but depending on the condition of your present soil, may not require that much.  Also, try to price out mushroom compost.  We've used a half & half mix of topsoil/compost which is SUPER nice, and seems to get the seed to pop and establish faster than straight topsoil.  Ask - some places have a topsoil/compost mix that they call "topsoil".  Offhand I can't say for certain without seeing your site or answering those questions, but I'd say 5 yards is a safe place to start off, and you may be looking at upwards of 10-15 yards.  Use the 5 yards to find out prices, and ask on the pricing for the larger amounts.  You usually can get a deal the more you need.

*edit*
Please don't read this to mean 5 yards will do the job.  I'm positive 5 yards WON'T do it, but I mean it to be a safe place to start for you to price this out.  I'm almost inclined to say you'll need somewhere in the 15 yard range, but that won't help you price this out.  Work in 5 yard increments for pricing.

6. How much seed would I need?

It'll depend on the directions on the bag.  Some grasses require more, some less, but the bag will tell you how much to spread based on the type of job you are doing and at what drop rate depending on the type of spreader.

7. I live in a somewhat rural area. Could a farmer do this type of work for me more cost effectively?

If he's got a tractor with a bucket and a box scraper, he'd prolly charge you a whole lot less than if you rented the equipment, however, you'll still want to go over his finish grading job with a landscape rake, and even out the area, as a box scraper isn't the ideal tool for the job.  It WILL work, but it'll depend on his skill with the tool.  A box scraper is usually used to rough grade a site, finish grading generally requires a "finer touch" machine

[shmokes]

Jesus, Drew.  I thought you drove a snowplow for a living

[DrewKaree]

That's winter work.

If I did that for a living full time, I'd have to drive to where the snow is, and I'm allergic to the upper east coast, Canada, and Alaska. 

Canada's the worst, though.  Up there, they're so snobby...it's all aboot them...cripes, those guys even wanna tell you about their Magnum P.I. dreams

[Jabba]

Hey Drew,

Wow, I hit the goldmine

[DrewKaree]

Hey Drew,

Wow, I hit the goldmine  . Thanks!! for all the great advice. I guess you'ze "in da business" for sure!

Yes indeedy I yam!

Not sure on this yet, but do you have to have some sort of special license to drive one of those skidsteers?

Shouldn't need one at all.  Here's another tip for you.  If you rent one, make sure you open the throttle up almost all the way.  It'll be easier to use, although it'll jerk you around easier and faster

Is Round-up a US brand weed killer? If I were to spray 'em dead as you suggest, wouldn't this prevent the new grass seed from taking? I mean, some of those weeds I mowed down last summer were pretty scary. I mean massive with real thick stocks. Took the mower a lot a passes to mow that sucker down.

Sounds like thistle, big fat'uns...you Canadians!  Yeah, Round-Up is a weed killer, it's a systemic herbicide, which means the stuff that's growing underground (which is how some weeds propogate) will ALSO be killed.  You'd THINK it wouldn't allow the new seed to grow, but there's guidelines on the stuff for just this use and they give you time frames which you can replant or sow new grass. 

Had you asked about this last fall, I'd have told you to lay carpet/newspaper/tarps over all that crap to cook it out and kill it off, but now you need quick knockdown of all that stuff.  I'm not sure what they'd sell it as in Canada, or even if they allow it...dunno what your pesticide/herbicide laws are up there   After spraying something like that on it and waiting the proper time, using the harley rake will pull out most all the rest of the root systems too, so you'll be killing two birds with one stone.

Like what, a couple of weeks? a month? Guess I can read the label when I go looking for this stuff.

Yeah, the label will tell you.  Each chemical will have its own properties.  I think Round-Up can be seeded over after two weeks, possibly three.  I'll try to find the chemical name so you can look for it and get back to you.

The house sits in the middle of a two acre lot. The front yard is what I am considering to work on. Total space to cover maybe a little bit smaller than an acre. I'll take some exact measurements and post them for you.

 

You're probably looking at 15 yards (probably EASY 15 yards, mebbe 20+)

Wow, I've heard minimum 4" base (Maybe I'm thinking of crushed stone bases though...). You figure 2" is enough? The land was back filled. Pretty stony. I spent a couple of days picking rocks. I'm sure there are "thousands" of them little critters 1 " beneath the surface!

With using the harley rake, you'll get that 2" using that, and blending it in with another 2" of your topsoil will bring you to that amount.  If you were just laying topsoil straigh on top of it, your figure would be a better amount, but your grass will sprout in 2" too.  It'll just have a different root system.  The thicker the base you use, the longer it will take to settle and the longer you may have to wait to cut it, and it's already gonna be REALLY long when you first cut it

Great tip...typically, in your opinion, is this type of topsoil/compost blend THAT more expensive than regular topsoil?

Depending on the place we get it from, it can be anywhere from 2 to 6 dollars more per yard, but you'll be starting your grass out in a better condition....you can always come back next year and top-dress with straight topsoil.

I'll take a picture of the surface to give you a sense of what I'm looking at. If I laid down 2" of 1 yard of soil, how many square feet would that cover?

I am assuming that the Harley rake will do the rough work, and that I would have to complete the rest by hand...Right?

That's one of those screwy "eyeball-measurement" things...I wish I could be more helpful here, I'll see if I can round up some place with guestimates/measurements...I know of one site I can direct you to, but I'm away from home until tomorrow.  I'll drop that link on you tomorrow.  Usually it's an eyeball-estimate thing for everyone, though...you'll end up with low spots you'll wanna even out, ruts, etc.

The harley rake is designed to spin out a good chunk of stones, even out the surface, semi-finish grade it, and somewhat till the surface.  You'll wanna have the bucket AND the harley rake, use the bucket to drop piles of dirt all over, and use the harley rake to spread/till/mix it in to a fairly uniform depth.  Final grading should be done as you go along by someone standing close by with a landscape rake.  Pick up two or three, or rent 'em (they CAN be kinda pricey!)  You'll be able to do the bulk of the work with the skidsteer, the rest is just the handwork that comes with the job.

If, when you call the rental place, they tell you they don't have a harley rake but they do have a rock hound, hang up and call a few other places.  They are different pieces, and the rock hound will not do all the stuff the harley rake will, in spite of their claims to the contrary.

While you're at the rental joint, check out prices to rent a landscape rake or three, and a straw blower.  If the straw blower will be more than $50 to rent, skip it, but if it's less, consider renting it to spread your straw - take you mebbe a half hour with it!  Otherwise, look into something called Penn mulch (it's really just a compressed paper pellet mulch designed to retain water close to your seed and leach it slowly so your grass doesn't die off.

Drop me a PM with other questions, glad to help out.

I haven't had time to line up ANY side jobs this winter, so I'm pretty free for another few weeks...snow seems to be over here too.

[Zakk]

We are not snobby.

[DrewKaree]

We are not snobby.  Harumph.  Wait till I tell the guys at the club what you said. We shall have a good chuckle over a glass of port.   

....he said as I choked him with an insane amount of brie stuffed in his nose, until he P.I.'ed all over himself

_{(and it is not a Magnum P.I. dream dammit!!)} 

Magnum dream, Magnum dream....nener nener boo boo!

That's IT....I'm NEVER buying a house in Canada
unless I get driven around to walk through them by a realtor with a Magnum P.I. car, an appropriately sized mustache, and a hawaiian shirt!

I may buy a hockey team, since they're aboot $20 American dollars to purchase nowadays, but they'll play in my backyard....with rollerblades!

w00t!

[Jabba]

I made my way down to the local Battlefield Heavy equipment rental place and had him show me the skidsteer (when he showed me it, I could feel that Tim the Toolman Taylor grunt getting ready to explode...)

[DrewKaree]

Offhand, I'd say that looks like a rock hound, but I've not seen that particular attachment from Cat.

If those Cats are a single joystick, you will find them E-Z to use after just a touch of practice.  WAY easier to use versus the standard controls.  I believe Mustang is the big user of the T-handle, and those things I've always found to handle like ass.  And not the small good kind of ass.

Here's an example of the two items I'm talking about, and you can look at them and judge which is more like the Cat attachment there

Rock Hound:


Harley Rake:



The landscape rake I'm referring to is an actual honest to goodness rake.  It looks like a (semi) normal rake on steroids.  Here's what I meant by that

Landscape rake:


The picture of what you have there WILL work for your purposes, however the Harley rake will do the exact same thing, allow you to move faster (at least for me, anyhoo), and most importantly, SEE what you are doing quicker.  The "seeing" part makes a big difference to me, as I hate wondering what's going on.  I like to SEE what I'm doing, and quickly.  There's obviously more cleanup with a harley rake, since you've gotta pick the crap up, but swapping out the bucket solves that in a snap.

The hand landscape rake will be used by you to "fine tune" everything else.  If they charge 185/day for that hand rake, punch the guy in the face for trying to rip you off   You could BUY one of those for that price. 

It's nicer to plant in fall, but not vital.  If you plant now, you won't have problems...more stuff is conducive to fall success, like the cooler weather, rain, it might SNOW (perhaps eliminating someone walking over your newly seeded plot!), etc but you'll still have a nice yard if you do it now.  A plus for doing it now is that come fall, you can drop more seed down (overseeding) and next year, have an even BETTER looking yard. 

[ChadTower]

Definitely make sure to account for soil settling.  Last year I took a pickaxe and a 12 pack to one of my driveways, dug up the sand with a shovel and wheelbarrow... put down 4 yards of soil and then covered it with nice sod.   It looked like a million bucks.

Then the soil settled and now it's 2" lower than it was and it collects water whenever it rains.  I have to pull up all of the grass in strips and put down another 3 or so yards of soil. 

Don't make that mistake.

[Jabba]

Hey Drew/Chad, thanks for the replies...

Thanks to missioncontrol's link on google maps, I was able to drill down to my property. It is in the pic below.

Drew: The arrow in the picture is pointing to a big brown splotch. This is the area I am considering landscaping. Given the fact that the property is 2 acres, I estimate that the land I need to landscape is a little more than a qarter of an acre. Do you agree? Based on that, how much soil do you think I would need?

Thanks for the pointers on differences between the Harley Rake and the Landscape Rake. Looks to me that what I was shown was a Landscape Rake for the skidsteer. It attaches to the skidsteer. Kinda makes sense when you put it that way, I guess it would be easier if you could see what you were working on...

The $185/day was for for the Landscape Rake for the skidsteer.

[DrewKaree]

This is the area I am considering landscaping. Given the fact that the property is 2 acres, I estimate that the land I need to landscape is a little more than a qarter of an acre. Do you agree? Based on that, how much soil do you think I would need?

I'm gonna try to DL that picture and take a better look.  I just took a cursory look before replying to this.  I'll drop you a PM with what I'm thinkin'.

Thanks for the pointers on differences between the Harley Rake and the Landscape Rake. Looks to me that what I was shown was a Landscape Rake for the skidsteer. It attaches to the skidsteer. Kinda makes sense when you put it that way, I guess it would be easier if you could see what you were working on...

Yeah, the landscape rake/rock hound usually has a different ground-beating attachment as well, it's hard to explain what it looks like, but kinda picture a farmer's rake thingy....it almost ALWAYS takes more passes to get an area "cleaner" with a rock hound, or else you're spending more time to do it to get the same job done, which meant the harley rake worked faster.  I'd just check around....mebbe harley rakes are in scarce supply around there, which means you'll have to use what they got, but if you can find a harley rake, don't let 'em tell you they're the same thing.  They CLEARLY aren't, as you can now tell

The $185/day was for for the Landscape Rake for the skidsteer.  I'll see how much it is to rent the hand rake you suggested at HD. I may even end up buying one if there is not THAT much of a price difference.

Dunno how much HD sells 'em for, but they ARE pricey for a rake.  Well worth the price, though.  Some things to look for when purchasing that rake - see the side supports coming from higher up the handle attaching to the rake head?  See if those bolt in or not.  Not vital, but makes it easier to replace that piece instead of the whole rake, and that's USUALLY where we have problems with them busting (although running over them and flattening them is the #1 issue with guys who don't think to set their rake OUT of their work area )  Also, if there's one that's got all that nice padding/foam on the handgrips and there's one without, buy the one without.  Get some of that rubberizing dip and use that instead.  You can paint it on the lower hand area as well, and the rubber won't fall apart as easily as the foam crap - they'll also prolly price it higher....enough that your savings for the bare nekkid one will pay for the rubber dip.

Sounds like next month is when this whole thing will begin. Ground should be dryer by then (pleas Lord, no more snow   )I like the idea of extra seeding in the fall (prolly with a covering of extra soil).

I wouldn't seed later than the first week of next month, if that's your plan.  Plan to start this in a few weeks, late March/early April is the best time to seed, but up der in da Great White Nort dat's prolly aboot right   I wouldn't go more than a week and a half into May, though. 

Chad: Thanks for the Tip. The land has been settled for a year and a halk now. Hopefully she won't sink...

You gotta remember the stuff you're putting on is gonna settle too, though.  The topsoil will have been dug up and not part of your established yard, that's why earlier I mentioned topdressing (I believe I did, anyhoo, shoot me if I didn't ) the next season or so...prolly with straight compost instead of topsoil (the compost will be "airier" and won't compact your new grass as much, and it'll benefit the growth of your new grass)

[DrewKaree]

I called my brother-in-law, and my calculations are way off.  I was forgetting ONE figure, and when you're dealing in CUBIC measurements, that one figure screws EVERYTHING up   You're looking for something more in the 100 yard range if that's a quarter acre

I'm gonna see him on Friday, so I'll show him your picture then.

In re-reading my post, you MAY wish to wait until fall to do this.  IIRC, you ARE in Canada, and you'll prolly have cool weather grass mixes available to you, which obviously will do better in cool weather.  They WILL germinate now, but waiting until next month will reduce the germination rate.  If you can't do it within the next two weeks, wait until fall so you aren't throwing more money towards buying more seed in fall.

Fall will mean LATE August/September-ish so you can plan it.

I'll get you the figures on Friday...my 10-15 yards are WAAAAAYYYYYY off.

If you can measurestimate^TM the length and width, that'll make this a bit more precise....I never knew he formulized it! 

[ChadTower]

The problem is always the Germins.

[Jabba]

Thanks Drew, Chad. Sounds like dem Germans there are nasty buggers to tame...

I've been digging around a little bit to calculate amount of soil I will need. Drew's BOL thinks it's about 2/3 of an acre, I think maybe 1/2 (property include 360 feet of drain ditch, so, based on some reseach I've done...

1 acre = roughly 76% the size of a US football field

A US football field (including the two end zones) is 360 feet long and 160 feet. When you take away the two 30 foot end zones, you get an aproximate acre. (boy am I glad 1 acre is not the size of a Canadian football field, heck, it'd be freakin CRAZY if it was a UK football field... )

1/2 an acre would therefore be roughly 150 x 80 feet

Formula to calculate the cubic yards of soil needed is : W x L / 3 (for 4") / 27 (to get to yards = 148 yards of soil!!! Ouch.

The local guy quoted me $148.50 for 5 yards which works out to $29.70 per yard (delivered)

148 yards will cost (*gulp*) = $4395.00

Man, thats a lot of soil!!!! Just so I can lay grass! Hmm, maybe I can convince the wife to put in a Par 3 while I'm at it....

[DrewKaree]

Yeah, if you've got your measurements, it's easier to come close, but you'd be surprised what you can find to do with any extra you might have....two thirds of an acre and round it up to an even 300 yards by his calculations (294, but we'd round off and blend it into your yard) if that's the size.  If he's closer to correct, and you DO have two thirds of an acre to deal with there, 150 will get you that 2", which WILL work, but spending that much money, I'd make sure you do what I suggested and beat your yard up NOW, set it aside, prepare for fall, and mix 'er all in and start in fall.  He figured half an acre somewhere closer to 180 yards. 

For MY area, your quote is only adding $10/yd to the $/yd for delivery, so that doesn't sound too out of line.  For an idea of how much dirt that is, those big dump trucks (you know, the ones with wheels galore under them?) will hold 30 yards.  5 dumpers MIGHT be something they just run back/forth for, but if they run two for you, that DOES sound like a deal!

Wanna get some SERIOUS sticker shock?  Price out sod!

[GameOver]

I'm not a landscape expert, but have successfully planted LOTS of grass seed several times.

[Jabba]

Thanks Game Over for the tips....

I'm curious - how is it you came by such a large area of dirt?

[DrewKaree]

Also, I didn't hear any mention of testing the soil to make sure grass will grow there.

That was because he's already got grass growing around the rest of the house, , and because he's seeding, he's going to be adding enough topsoil that he'd have to work at making the grass NOT grow.  If he was just tilling up his dirt and throwing seed around like a farmer, then you'd do that, or after his lawn has been growing for a year or two and settled into the rest of the yard.

Hmmmm 16k could be a good down payment on a pool - forget the grass!  Or even put in an 'extra' garage that could double as a GAMEROOM!     Heck you could get a pair of decent dirtbikes for <5k and have a good 'ol time!

BEST.  SOLUTIONS.  EVER! 

I actually just read a story about a guy in Alabama who finally won court cases to keep his entire yard the way it is....are you ready for this?  He astro-turfed the ENTIRE YARD!

That should be the goal of ANY landscaping project any of you undertake - make the house look better, while making less overall work for yourself.  And take it from me, lose the landscape fabric, and use mulch instead.  It'll look nice, and later, when the landscape fabric mysteriously makes its way up to the surface somehow and you STILL have weeds in your beds, you'll want to rip it all out later anyway.

[GameOver]

Also, I didn't hear any mention of testing the soil to make sure grass will grow there.

That was because he's already got grass growing around the rest of the house,