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Author Topic: Michael Moore was right.  (Read 4599 times)

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mr.Curmudgeon

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Michael Moore was right.
« on: March 28, 2005, 05:13:09 pm »
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/27/politics/27exodus.html? (Login required)

EDIT:
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/index.php?id=1988 (No login required*)
*It is an exact copy of the NYT article with no additional comments/edits by Moore.

With this new information,  the single biggest criticism of Fahrenheit 9/11 goes down the toilet.
Although Moore is still fat, so there's that totally pertinent argument from his detractors. But I'll leave that discussion to the dietitians.
mrC
« Last Edit: March 29, 2005, 02:58:52 pm by mr.Curmudgeon »

ChadTower

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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2005, 05:26:06 pm »
The article requires a login.

Dartful Dodger

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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2005, 05:32:43 pm »
If only he didn't lie to us in "Bowling for Colimbine".  The USA may have listened to him.

To bad BUSH WON!

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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2005, 06:07:06 pm »
The article requires a login.
Isn't that lame.
Hey Baby, Have you ever met a Newbie with 38 pages of previous posts before? Do you Want to?

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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2005, 06:45:03 pm »

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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2005, 10:47:25 pm »
If only he didn't lie to us in "Bowling for Colimbine".
NO MORE!!

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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2005, 11:12:12 pm »
New Details on F.B.I. Aid for Saudis After 9/11
By ERIC LICHTBLAU

Published: March 27, 2005

WASHINGTON, March 26 - The episode has been retold so many times in the last three and a half years that it has become the stuff of political legend: in the frenzied days after Sept. 11, 2001, when some flights were still grounded, dozens of well-connected Saudis, including relatives of Osama bin Laden, managed to leave the United States on specially chartered flights.

Now, newly released government records show previously undisclosed flights from Las Vegas and elsewhere and point to a more active role by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in aiding some of the Saudis in their departure.

The F.B.I. gave personal airport escorts to two prominent Saudi families who fled the United States, and several other Saudis were allowed to leave the country without first being interviewed, the documents show.

The Saudi families, in Los Angeles and Orlando, requested the F.B.I. escorts because they said they were concerned for their safety in the wake of the attacks, and the F.B.I. - which was then beginning the biggest criminal investigation in its history - arranged to have agents escort them to their local airports, the documents show.

But F.B.I. officials reacted angrily, both internally and publicly, to the suggestion that any Saudis had received preferential treatment in leaving the country.

"I say baloney to any inference we red-carpeted any of this entourage," an F.B.I. official said in a 2003 internal note. Another F.B.I. official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said this week regarding the airport escorts that "we'd do that for anybody if they felt they were threatened - we wouldn't characterize that as special treatment."

The documents were obtained through a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit against the Justice Department by Judicial Watch, a conservative legal group, which provided copies to The New York Times.

The material sheds new light on the aftermath of the Sept. 11 attacks, and it provides details about the F.B.I.'s interaction with at least 160 Saudis who were living in or visiting the United States and were allowed to leave the country. Some of the departing Saudis were related to Osama bin Laden.

The Saudis' chartered flights, arranged in the days after the attacks when many flights in the United States were still grounded, have proved frequent fodder for critics of the Bush administration who accuse it of coddling the Saudis. The debate was heightened by the filmmaker Michael Moore, who scrutinized the issue in "Fahrenheit 9/11," but White House officials have adamantly denied any special treatment for the Saudis, calling such charges irresponsible and politically motivated.

The Sept. 11 commission examined the Saudi flights in its final report last year, and it found that no Saudis had been allowed to leave before national airspace was reopened on Sept. 13, 2001; that there was no evidence of "political intervention" by the White House; and that the F.B.I. had done a "satisfactory screening" of the departing Saudis to ensure they did not have information relevant to the attacks.

The documents obtained by Judicial Watch, with major passages heavily deleted, do not appear to contradict directly any of those central findings, but they raise some new questions about the episode.

The F.B.I. records show, for instance, that prominent Saudi citizens left the United States on several flights that had not been previously disclosed in public accounts, including a chartered flight from Providence, R.I., on Sept. 14, 2001, that included at least one member of the Saudi royal family, and three flights from Las Vegas between Sept. 19 and Sept. 24, also carrying members of the Saudi royal family. The government began reopening airspace on Sept. 13, but many flights remained grounded for days afterward.

The three Las Vegas flights, with a total of more than 100 passengers, ferried members of the Saudi royal family and staff members who had been staying at Caesar's Palace and the Four Seasons hotels. The group had tried unsuccessfully to charter flights back to Saudi Arabia between Sept. 13 and Sept. 17 because they said they feared for their safety as a result of the Sept. 11 attacks, the F.B.I. documents say.

Once the group managed to arrange chartered flights out of the country, an unidentified prince in the Las Vegas group "thanked the F.B.I. for their assistance," according to one internal report. The F.B.I. had interviewed many members of the group and searched their planes before allowing them to leave, but it nonetheless went back to the Las Vegas hotels with subpoenas five days after the initial flight had departed to collect further information on the Saudi royal guests, the documents show.

In several other cases, Saudi travelers were not interviewed before departing the country, and F.B.I. officials sought to determine how what seemed to be lapses had occurred, the documents show.

The F.B.I. documents left open the possibility that some departing Saudis had information relevant to the Sept. 11 investigation.

"Although the F.B.I. took all possible steps to prevent any individuals who were involved in or had knowledge of the 9/11/2001 attacks from leaving the U.S. before they could be interviewed," a 2003 memo said, "it is not possible to state conclusively that no such individuals left the U.S. without F.B.I. knowledge."

The documents also show that F.B.I. officials were clearly riled by public speculation stirred by news media accounts of the Saudi flights. They were particularly bothered by a lengthy article in the October 2003 issue of Vanity Fair, which included charges that the bureau considered unfair and led to an internal F.B.I. investigation that the agency named "Vanitybom." Internal F.B.I. correspondence during the review was addressed to "fellow Vanitybom victims."

Critics said the newly released documents left them with more questions than answers.

"From these documents, these look like they were courtesy chats, without the time that would have been needed for thorough debriefings," said Christopher J. Farrell, who is director of investigations for Judicial Watch and a former counterintelligence interrogator for the Army. "It seems as if the F.B.I. was more interested in achieving diplomatic success than investigative success."

Senator Charles E. Schumer, Democrat of New York, called for further investigation.

"This lends credence to the theory that the administration was not coming fully clean about their involvement with the Saudis," he said, "and we still haven't gotten to the bottom of this whole affair."

Dexter

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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2005, 04:58:08 am »
Guess oil is thicker than blood. Anyway, it was obvious when junior refused to appear before the 9/11 panel and swear on the bible that there was a cover up. The missing pages from the report covering Saudi involvement was the final nail in the coffin.

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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2005, 10:44:42 am »
I get it.  We were supposed to KILL THEM ALL right?

Saudi Royal family, diplomats, all of them.  I understand.

Being related to OBL makes them evil too.  Guilt by association.

BTW, what is the "new light" here? 
Quote
The Sept. 11 commission examined the Saudi flights in its final report last year, and it found that no Saudis had been allowed to leave before national airspace was reopened on Sept. 13, 2001; that there was no evidence of "political intervention" by the White House; and that the F.B.I. had done a "satisfactory screening" of the departing Saudis to ensure they did not have information relevant to the attacks.
Quote
The documents obtained by Judicial Watch, with major passages heavily deleted, do not appear to contradict directly any of those central findings, but they raise some new questions about the episode.
Quote
"From these documents, these look like they were courtesy chats, without the time that would have been needed for thorough debriefings," said Christopher J. Farrell, who is director of investigations for Judicial Watch and a former counterintelligence interrogator for the Army. "It seems as if the F.B.I. was more interested in achieving diplomatic success than investigative success."

So, we let the Royal family go when the adminstration said we did, the report doesn't counter that.  The question is did we give them the grueling torture we need to in order to get information.  Is that the issue here?


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Dartful Dodger

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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2005, 10:55:44 am »

shmokes

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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2005, 12:16:34 pm »
Dartful, whether he was mistaken or made it up, I would imagine that the point he was making with the title is not lost on you and you likely agree with it.  The title is ironic.  He absurdly makes the case that since both boys had bowling class that morning, that bowling must be the cause of their rampage.  He is pointing out the irony and simple-mindedness of blaming the tragedy on some single factor like videogames, or rock & roll, or even guns.  Don't get me wrong, the movie had a decidedly anti-gun message and the dirty trick he pulled on that moron idle of your, Charlton Heston, was dispicable, but he also spends a significant amount of time in Canada, a country similarly gun-crazed as America and questions why, if Canadians can get guns just as easily as America, and have historically demonstrated a similar love affair with them as Americans, why aren't Canadians killing other people at a clip anywhere close to Americans.  In other words if the problem is only a matter of gun-control, why is America so much more violent than its next-door neighbor with similar levels of gun accessibility?

For the most part Bowling for Columbine was a pretty good documentary and was reasonably fair, asking far more question than it tried to answer.  If you want to paint Michael Moore as a politcal hack without any journalistic integrity at least do yourself a favor and stick to Farenheight 9/11 where you can make a clear case of it.
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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2005, 01:07:50 pm »
He's a journalistic hack with no integrity.  All you have to do is watch F911.  Even shmokes can see that. ;D

AND I agree with MrC.  Michael Moore IS fat.

Alright, which of you is willing to step up and take my agreement like a woman?
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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2005, 01:14:07 pm »
Will some mod do the right thing and combine this with the thread about those bigass fast food sammiches?

Dartful Dodger

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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2005, 01:32:06 pm »
He's a journalistic hack with no integrity.

Alright, which of you is willing to step up and take my agreement like a woman?

He is not journalistic at all.  He's a director that makes low budget movies.  After his movie his fans sit around and repeat quotes from the movie and they tell each other, "That was a pretty good documentary".  The same way my friends and I talk about Napoleon Dynamite.  The only difference is they need to call his movie a documentary, because they are too educated to waste time on a movie.

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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2005, 01:35:19 pm »
They so edumacated.

shmokes

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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2005, 01:44:00 pm »
Even shmokes can see that. ;D

Guilty as charged.

For my part, I called him a political hack.  He is, of course, a journalist.  To say otherwise is like saying Hyundais aren't cars because they suck.  Gimme a break.

And quit quoting Napoleon Dynamite.  You people are obnoxious.  Is was a really good movie, but I'm starting to hate it.  Everywhere I go I here it constantly.  Knowing the script by heart is practically a Mormon requirement to get into heaven.  Much context of the movie can only be fully appreciated by people who have lived in Utah.  And the film maker, of course, is a Mormon from BYU. 
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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2005, 01:46:08 pm »
Never heard of Napoleon Dynamite.

I am as much of a journalist as Michael Moore.

shmokes

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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2005, 02:04:31 pm »
I don't know what you do for a living, but I doubt it.  But hell, maybe you're a newspaper editor.  In which case, so what if you're as much as or more of a journalist than him.  The guy goes around gathering information and interviewing people to bring that information to the public.  He does this for a living.  You don't have to be honest to be a journalist.

Anyway, whatever.  He is a journalist, he isn't a journalist.  Whatever.  I don't much care.  I was pointing out what I think was a comically absurd statement, but it's not like it really matters.  We both agree on exactly what he does, regardless of what each of us want to label it. 
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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2005, 02:49:49 pm »

He is, of course, a journalist.  To say otherwise is like saying Hyundais aren't cars because they suck.


Dude, Hyundai makes a sweet ride!

Quote

And quit quoting Napoleon Dynamite.  You people are obnoxious.


Woops!  My bad!  :-[ ;)

Quote

Is was a really good movie,


You sir, are a bald-faced liar.  The best parts of the movie made it into the commercials.  If you saw the commercials, you didn't need to see the movie.  I feel cheated that I borrowed the DVD to watch it.  I spent more in gas money driving over to pick it up than it was worth.

You're just jealous that in that movie they got to spend time on the intenet chatting with hot chicks. 


You don't have to be honest to be a journalist.


Ask a journalist.  I bet they call you a liar.  I dare you.  Ask 'em.

Although your statement is truth personified
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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2005, 03:03:10 pm »
I get it. We were supposed to KILL THEM ALL right?

No, we didn't have to KILL THEM ALL. It would have been nice if they would have held them long enough to continue a thorough investigation with them though.

Quote
Being related to OBL makes them evil too. Guilt by association.

No. But it certainly gives them the possibility of having more information about him than you or I.
You guys are defending the Bin Laden's now? Jeez...
mrC

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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2005, 03:06:04 pm »
No, we didn't have to KILL THEM ALL. It would have been nice if they would have held them long enough to continue a thorough investigation with them though.


Hold them just long enough that people started screaming racial profiling, yes?  See, they weren't actually connected to the attacks as far as we know, and therefore there was no reason to hold them.

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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2005, 03:21:41 pm »
Hold them just long enough that people started screaming racial profiling, yes?
NO MORE!!

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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2005, 03:24:12 pm »
There was no reason for them to leave either. All flights were grounded. Why give them special privileges?

Read the article again.  It says that all of their flights were AFTER the flights started being allowed again.  Private jets usually get priority because they're so small and can get in and out of the runway in a few minutes.

I would have left too.  With all the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- hitting the fan, why stick around when you can go home to where you are untouchable?

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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2005, 05:14:38 pm »
MrC,

Let's just say that if this shows that 160 saudis got on a plane 9/14/01 and flew back to Saudi Arabia, what exactly does that mean?

The article doesn't say who they were, it speculates a lot, but it points to diplomats and very rich saudis.  Likely some with diplomatic status.

What's the issue? 
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shmokes

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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2005, 05:23:15 pm »
Why are all Saudies terrorists?
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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2005, 08:26:06 pm »
Hold them just long enough that people started screaming racial profiling, yes?  See, they weren't actually connected to the attacks as far as we know, and therefore there was no reason to hold them.

Chad,
We'll never know if they were connected to the attacks or not....they were never interviewed.

"several other Saudis were allowed to leave the country without first being interviewed"

Quote
I would have left too. With all the <auto-censored> hitting the fan, why stick around when you can go home to where you are untouchable?

So you support the exportation, directly after the worst attack on American soil, of potentially vital witnesses, to an area were they could never be recovered?

Wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that some of these people are reported to have connections to the Bush family would it?

mrC

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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2005, 08:27:55 pm »
What's the issue? 

From the article:
"The F.B.I. documents left open the possibility that some departing Saudis had information relevant to the Sept. 11 investigation."

You tell me fredster... you tell me.

mrC

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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2005, 09:23:10 pm »

shmokes

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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2005, 10:39:16 pm »
Gore lost

...that's an interesting variation
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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2005, 01:08:01 am »
Mondale got beat like a red-headed stepchild.
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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2005, 09:26:19 am »
Chad,
We'll never know if they were connected to the attacks or not....they were never interviewed.

On what basis do you suspect they could have had that information? 

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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2005, 09:42:46 am »
Point is, they could well have been innocent, but it was WHO they were that got them out of the country unquestioned by the FBI, not what they knew/didn't know. The fact that it happened coupled with the part of the 9/11 report dealing with Saudi connections being classified that makes this whole thing stink.

If there was no Bush/house of Saud links, they would have been detained and questioned. This favouritism desecrated the memory of the people lost that day, its disgusting.

If it had been Clinton whisking off relatives of bin laden, and HIS family had links with the bin laden family, the republicans would have wanted his head on a pole, and they would have a point. Double standards as usual  ::)

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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2005, 09:48:23 am »
Nowhere does it say they were given preferential flight status.  Private jets are always given that type of treatment because they are able to get on and off the runway in minutes compared to the hours it takes a 747.  They also very, very likely were taking off from private runways so they didn't even need clearance, just for the ban to be lifted so they can register their flight plans.   That's how air travel works.

The only reason to have detained them would have been because they are Saudis.  If the airport screeners aren't supposed to racially profile, and the police aren't supposed to racially profile, why would the FBI be allowed to racially profile?

Now, SHOULD they have been detained?  Hell yes.  No one here has given a legally credible reason for detaining them.

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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2005, 10:53:48 am »
btw, that site bowlingforthetruth or whatever is the stupidest site I've ever seen.

did they think he wasn't going to edit anything?  Everything was like he left scenes out... ooohh... of course he did.  Its a movie.

I personally loved bowling for colimbined and hated 911.  Thought 911 wasn't funny and nearly all the information was already known.  And the others where un-proved.

but bowling was funny.  And VERY flawed.  Like he proved that gun ownership wasn't a problem (or thought he did with Canadians having more guns per capita)... But in the end started screaming at the Charles Heston about the deaths and gun ownership as the problem.

But all in all.. bowling was a funny movie... 911 just made me yawn... and I really don't like the presidant... believe he could be the worse presidant ever... and lies ever few minutes... makes decisions based PURELY to make his friends rich.... Wouldn't help anyone unless there is something in it for himself.   But that didn't make me like 911.

btw, doesn't anyone find it funny that Bush flew back to washington to help Shivinos law (sp?) when he wouldn't come back for a tsunami.  That and when he was the Texis Gov. he signed a law that allowed hosipitals to pull the plug on newborns AGAINST their parents will... But don't worry...  The hosipitals decisions ARE based on the parents ability to pay!  What a two faced di!@#... I wouldn't mind a pres that was for the sanctity of life... but not just when its appropriate for your voting base...

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Re: Michael Moore was right.
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2005, 10:56:35 am »
doesn't anyone find it funny that Bush flew back to washington to help Shivinos law (sp?) when he wouldn't come back for a tsunami.

I'm still laughing over that one.