The "Bible Code"

[Crazy Cooter]

I watched a program on the "Bible Code" the other night and it was pretty interesting.  Some people say it's real, some say it's not, but statistically is sounds odd enough that it's kind of creepy.  Anyone else watch it?  It was on the history channel.

For those that don't know of it (I had no idea):
There *appears* to be some kind of cryptostuff in the old writings of the bible.  If you search for a term, there are other words "coded" around it.  Kind of like a crossword puzzle where you take one word and then find other words that have an association with the first.

Here's a good explanation of it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_code

[walls83]

Ya I watched it.  but what got me was the nobody was using the same technique to find the answers.  They were yabbering on about how my tech is better and that I can find anything.. yadda yadda yadda.  the thing about this things are you never know until something happends and then they say.  LOOK LOOK its right there.

[Santoro]

I saw a similar show one time - in it they showed that someone ran the same algorithm against 'Moby Dick" and came up with substantially similar results.

FWIW

http://www.thekeyboard.org.uk/The%20bible%20code.htm

[RayB]

If you look hard enough, you can create associations between anything and everything.

[Crazy Cooter]

They mentioned the Moby Dick stuff but said that the matrixes in the Bible were "tighter".

[Lilwolf]

So you mean that the bible is a code and shouldn't be interpreted word for word???

I thought it was originally worded so it rhymed... so that when it was told from generation to generation before it was written down... people could remember it...

Another interesting point of the bible... Its called the "holy word" because in Hebrew which had no spaced between words (you could write the end of one word and lead to the next without lifting the pen) and also it had no punctuation.  The question is this.. If you move a comma in a sentence from one location to another and it DRASTICALLY changes the meaning... how can we read the bible word for word?

[menace]

uh-oh let me snug up my flame proof underwear, I sense another bible is literal/no its not debate coming 

[Shape D.]

But the bible is literal.

[Shape D.]

No its not

[Shape D.]

Shut up Shape D you don't know what youre talking about.

[Santoro]

Behave or I'll change your avatar again   

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Behave or I'll change your avatar again   

I don't care who you are, that's funny right there.

Shape D.
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Posts: 688

  <==== ROFL!

mrC

[Shape D.]

Behave or I'll change your avatar again   

I saved the graphic I can upload it if I have to.

[Santoro]

Drat, Drat, and Double Drat.


(bonus points for the first person to know where that phrase is from)

[Zero_Hour]

Drat, Drat, and Double Drat.


(bonus points for the first person to know where that phrase is from)

Dick Dastardly - "Stop That Pigeon"

I know that was the theme song, but for some reason I think the show was called something different.

[SamSom]

You dont need the bible code to know whats going to happen next it says it straight up in the bible. For example soon were all going to have to carry personal identification chips inside or hand or something,  You heard about babylon right well its in Iraq and its going to become one of the wealthiest cities in Iraq . and here comes another war, List goes on and on.

[danny_galaga]

unless the bible was written in the 15th century you can safely assume it to be coincidence. thats when the technology came about. the first cyphers were called caesar shifts (because of the time they were first used) and they were simply shifting one alphabet over another to get your cypher. thus maybe a = t, b= u, c = v etc. pretty simple. then came the monoalphapbetic cypher, the arabs were the first to work out how to decypher those in about the 9th century as they were trying to get closer to understanding mohammed. they invented 'frequency analysis'. in about the 15th century a guy came up with a polyalphabetic cypher. the 'vigenere' cypher comprises 26 alphabets in a table. anyway, you can look up how it works. facinating. the first person to crack those was charles babbage.

besides that, why would god want to NOT tell us stuff? isnt the bible his word?

[paigeoliver]

And doesn't all that theorizing forget one substantial fact? There are thousands of ancient bible manuscripts. If two manuscripts differ by a single character then they would produce a different code, and the manuscripts tend to differ by more than just a single character.

In essence, if one manuscript says "Ishmael had a clay pot" and the OTHER one says "Ishmael had a red clay pot" then the entire code will be thrown off by the extra character.

Not sure if they are using the Gospels, but there is so much variation in those manuscripts that looking for codes would be absolutely silly. They have thousands that agree with each other 95+ percent of the time, but 5 percent is a huge difference if you are looking for a code. Change 5 percent of the characters in a word find puzzle and see if it still works.

[DrewKaree]

That program has been around for quite some time.  I saw it on either the History channel or Discovery channel a few years ago.  I haven't read the DaVinci Code - thought it was what the show was based upon or versa veetavitavegamineral.

It appears to be a "what result do you want, and lets try to find it" type of exercise.  That also would explain all the differences used to get the same result you spoke of.

[GGKoul]

That program has been around for quite some time.  I saw it on either the History channel or Discovery channel a few years ago.  I haven't read the DaVinci Code - thought it was what the show was based upon or versa veetavitavegamineral.

Dan Brown's "Angels and Demons" is a much better book then the DaVinci Code.

[RayB]

"The Real Davinci's Code" on the History Channel is way interesting. (Does a good job debunking some junk in the Davinci Code book...)

[Santoro]

Dan Brown's "Angels and Demons" is a much better book then the DaVinci Code.

Except for the helicopter part, IMHO -  that part was sort of out of the realm of believability.  Great book otherwise.

[DrewKaree]

Dan Brown's "Angels and Demons" is a much better book then the DaVinci Code.

Except for the helicopter part, IMHO -  that part was sort of out of the realm of believability.  Great book otherwise.

Thanks a BUNCH, Dave    Way to ruin the ending for me!  Ya know what, in Forrest Gump, Jenny DIES!  THERE, that'll fix you!

[Zero_Hour]

"The Real Davinci's Code" on the History Channel is way interesting. (Does a good job debunking some junk in the Davinci Code book...)

I find it strange that people feel the need to debunk DA VINCI CODE, as it is a work of fiction.  Having not read it, can someone clue me in as to the writers tone - is the "junk" presented in such a way that the reader is supposed to presume it is actual historical fact? Or, rather are things presented as fact as a way to move the plot?

[Santoro]

Thanks a BUNCH, Dave Way to ruin the ending for me! Ya know what, in Forrest Gump, Jenny DIES! THERE, that'll fix you!

Hey, I deliberately kept it vague.

[Santoro]

I find it strange that people feel the need to debunk DA VINCI CODE, as it is a work of fiction. Having not read it, can someone clue me in as to the writers tone - is the "junk" presented in such a way that the reader is supposed to presume it is actual historical fact? Or, rather are things presented as fact as a way to move the plot?

Most of the organizations, places, and works of art referenced really exist.

[walls83]

walls, You saw that part where they forecasted the assassination right?

Ya I saw that.  But like the chief inspector said "We don't know if he has information from somebody else, or if it is the code"

He kept saying that over and over so I think he thinks that I think that you think that we all think hes lying.  was that clear enough?



also this was a new bible code program I saw the first one along time ago also.  This is BIBLE CODE II~In his best announcer voice.

My take on the whole thing is wait until 2012 and if we get whipped out by a comet or if we destroy a comet Ill believe it.

[RayB]

I find it strange that people feel the need to debunk DA VINCI CODE, as it is a work of fiction.

[FractalWalk]

The bible code is nothing more than what mathematicians call a datatmining artifact. It is a false pattern that can be found in any set of data by filtering on multiple algorithms.  This is the same "phenomenon" that states historically the most reliable predictor of S&P 500 returns is the production of butter in Bangladesh.  It's true, but it's bogus. It's a false positive.

The flaw in the mathematical analysis that is usually ignored is the number of different algorithms used to try to find the code. You try one algorithm (every 3rd letter) and that doesn't do too well. So you try another (every 4th letter) and another etc. etc.  The more variables you use the more likely you will find a false positive.

It's the same logical/mathematical flaw of saying that flipping twenty heads in a row on a fair coin is a million to one shot: which it is unless you try it a million times at which point it's pretty likely that you will do it.  But it doesn't make you a good coin flipper.

The "Dogs of the Dow" theory and its variations (e.g. The Foolish Four") are the financial equivalents of the bible code.

[Crazy Cooter]

Me thinks Fractal is a mathemagician (explains the name).

While it would "seem" that the offsets were random, and we use guesses to determine them, what if they were all corelated by some number like pi?

I don't believe this, but run with the idea for a minute:
Suppose the original text was written with the intentions of revealing its "secrets" as man became more aware of his surroundings.  It would be easy to filter the text through a matrix and output an encoded document.  It would be very difficult without the inverse matrix to return the original text.  If (using pi as an example), we need to start on page 14, line 14 with the 14th digit of pi to output the original text, we would never know it.  We might hit some numbers here and there, but until we knew the translation from one digit to the next, we would be poking around blind.

It seemed to me that the program explained positives too numerous to be artifacts.  It sounded like the number of "hits" in the bible far exceeded the number of "hits" in Moby Dick.  Of course all the typing shown was in Hebrew or something so I have no idea what they were really doing... not to mention that like Paige said, you'd need the first version of the book to prove anything.

[danny_galaga]

And doesn't all that theorizing forget one substantial fact? There are thousands of ancient bible manuscripts. If two manuscripts differ by a single character then they would produce a different code, and the manuscripts tend to differ by more than just a single character.

yes, i actually thought of that as soon as a left the internet cafe. unless this bible code is based on only one particular bible in one particular language. why would god do something like that? or allow it to be done?

this is one of those things where rational atheists AND christians can agree (",)

[Dartful Dodger]

I liked L. Ron Hubbard's "Battlefield Earth".

I enjoyed the movie too, but that's because I read the book 10 years earlier, and the movie reminded me of pieces in the book.

The Hitchhiker's guide should be a great movie too, although Martin Freeman didn't have a religious following so it probably doesn't belong in this thread.

[jbox]

First of all, I have to say that Dan Brown's books are cookie-cutter stuff. Once you have read one of the books simply abstract all of the names in the book and you can use the underlying template to 99.9% guess the outcome of each of the other books. The only reason I read them is because my S.O. likes them, so it gives us something to talk about. The only reason they are so popular is that people have gotten *used* to being lied to, so any book that can present a reasonable sketch of a lie and a reason to lie can eventually be picked up and turned into an urban legend... 

Secondly, word analysis is just statistical nonsense. I could just as easily develop some algorithm involving pi, e and i which takes the stars in the northern hemisphere and produces God's final message to humanity (you know, the one about the inconvienience) but it wouldn't be proof there is a God. 

Dartful - I haven't read the book for B.E. Is it similar at all to the tripod's trilogy where it takes the underground several years to develop their plan, which they then build mostly themselves? Most movie adaptations lose me the moment a country bumpkin learns how to fly the moment they get in the cockpit...   

[lokki]

Let me start this by saying that I think scientology is pure BS.

But oddly enough two of my favorite books are by Mr Hubbard.
Battlefield Earth and Fear

BE is really good, and Fear really surprised me the first time I read it (20 years ago)

[Dartful Dodger]

Dartful - I haven't read the book for B.E. Is it similar at all to the tripod's trilogy where it takes the underground several years to develop their plan, which they then build mostly themselves? Most movie adaptations lose me the moment a country bumpkin learns how to fly the moment they get in the cockpit...

[RayB]

"When I was in 7th grade" are the key words here. I used to think Stephen King was a great writer when I was in 7th grade. Now I know better.
 

[Dartful Dodger]

"When I was in 7th grade" are the key words here. I used to think Stephen King was a great writer when I was in 7th grade. Now I know better.
 

The tripods are great for a 7th grader.

Battlefield Earth is good for an adult.