Car problems

[ChadTower]

Okay, thinking it was a good idea, and backed by Consumer Reports, anecdotal evidence, and every other piece of info I read, my wife and I bought a 97 Subaru Legacy Outback wagon about two years ago.  It had about 75k miles on it.  A Subaru should last a long time, yes?

Well, we've put 2500-3000 in repairs into this stupid car.  I'm done.  I want to replace it, at this rate we're paying like $220/month payment + an avg of 200/month maintenance into it.  That doesn't even count downtime or hassle.

I hate cars, so I'm not really up on the latest models.  One of our main goals in replacing it is avoiding hassle.  That means I'd like to buy a new one this time, buying the used one always seems to screw us over.  I'd like to buy something similar to the Legacy Outback, AWD if possible (it's rough driving half the year here).  A new Legacy is out of our price range... anyone have any suggestions?  I was just looking at the Hyundai Tuscon and that looks pretty good at an invoice of less than $17k.

[DrewKaree]

The secretary at work traded her Elantra in on one last October-ish, and she loves it.  It was costing her more per month for her Elantra than for a brand new Tuscon, and she really likes the room, the better riding position, and the general feeling she gets while driving it.  She feels "safer" driving it, and for the money, it's a nice little car, sez she.

After borrowing it from her several times to pick up lunch, we would have been buying one this year if my mom wouldn't have given us her old new car.  The Tuscon not only seems to be a VERY nice car, it's one of the cheaper ones around with that nice Hyundai warranty on it, so it should give you YEARS of good reliable service.

Hers didn't have any traction-type controls on it (AWD, 4WD), and we live in WI, so I'd guess if they offer traction controls, it'd be EXACTLY what you are looking for.

[paigeoliver]

If you are financing a car more then a few years old then you are really going to be getting the short end of the stick. As you will be paying for both a payment, and for the higher maintenance associated with older vehicles. It is especially bad in that 80,000 - 130,000 mile range, which seems to be the time when most of the major expense (but non-fatal) things break on cars and need to be replaced.

My suggestion, buy something with cash, the odds of racking up more than $2400 a year in repairs on an older vehicle are very, very slim. I have driven almost nothing but older vehicles, and I have probably only spent $2500-$3000 in the last decade on repairs (not counting tires or brake pads, which every vehicle needs from time to time, new or old).

Because of price differentials I suggest either buying a cheapo used american car, or going with the no hassle plan detailed below. The reason I suggest American is because word of mouth about quality actually makes used Japanese cars from the good makes a terrible buy. You can get a pretty nice American used car for $2000. By the time the GOOD Japanese cars drop to $2000 they are complete turds. V6 equipped Ford Rangers (anything other than the 2.9 liter engine, that engine was a defective design), can and will do incredible mileage, and they are cheap too. Before I sold mine last month there were 3 Rangers (out of about 30 vehicles) in my little apartment complex, all of them had over 200,000 (and mine was knocking on 300,000), and 2 different guys at my church have gotten 730,000 and 304,000 out of their rangers (the 730,000 one was on it's third tranny though).

Or if you want no hassle, buy a brand new Honda Civic or Accord and keep up on your maintenance. My old Accord blew up at 180,000 which is actually low for an Accord, but the sucker never needed a single repair in the six years it had been in my family (all post 100,000 miles).

[ChadTower]

No one in New England gets 200,000 out of a car.  They rot out way before they fail.  Salt, snow, harsh winters destroy your car well before regular mechanical failure does.  You don't see beat up old trucks around here because the undercarriage rots out before they reach that age.

As for buying an older car with cash, not really going that route for the car that carries my wife and kids.  The reliability and safety issues are more important than the cost.

I talked with my wife last night.  At least for now, we're thinking mid sized sedan, four door.  That 5/10 year warranty on Hyundais sure looks good to us right now.

[Stingray]

No one in New England gets 200,000 out of a car.  They rot out way before they fail.

Statements like that sure do make me glad I live in the middle of the continent where rust is almost non-exisitant.

-S

[TOK]

No one in New England gets 200,000 out of a car.  They rot out way before they fail.

Statements like that sure do make me glad I live in the middle of the continent where rust is almost non-exisitant.

-S

Well, they're definitely not true. My neice and her husband live in New Hampshire and have a 89 Ford pickup that's a daily driver with around 200,000 on it. I think the key is that they don't "hate" cars, so it gets the salt sprayed off at the car wash every week or so during the winter, and has also had the oil changed and little problems fixed before they become big ones.
Some cars will last longer than others, but you're not going to get long service out of any brand if you don't take care of it. It's kind of funny that Subaru came up because that'd be one of the brands I wouldn't buy used based on the demographic that buys them... people that see cars as an appliance. They aren't loved or maintained, and the only car Subaru makes that even appears to have a soul is the WRX.

My pick for a new "appliance" car would be the Toyota Camry. It's a couple thousand more than a Hyundai, but you're going to get sick of driving a cheap car that reminds you it's cheap every time you sit in it. Only the powertrain is warranted for 100,000 miles. Everything else is 5/60, and believe me the seats are going to be jabbing your ass and killing your back, and things are going to be breaking off in your hands by the time it's paid off.

[ChadTower]

Well, they're definitely not true. My neice and her husband live in New Hampshire and have a 89 Ford pickup that's a daily driver with around 200,000 on it.

There are exceptions to every general rule, but for the most part a vehicle simply rusts out faster here.  You're not going to buy a truck with 120k miles on it and get another 100k out of it.  Not in Massachusetts.  No amount of washing/spraying/rinsing is going to help you when every spot you park on is covered in salt as are the roads.  The amount of roadsalt in noncoastal MA is astounding.

Everything else on the Hyundais are 5/60 but that's a hell of a lot longer than the 30 days on a used car. 

[TOK]

I'm not suggesting that you not buy a new car, in fact I buy new ones because I know I'll keep them. If you plan on keeping it for a few years after it's paid off, I suggest spending a little more and get something thats really well built instead of something that got a reputation for being poorly built and combated that with a long warranty. It's still not a great car, Hyundai is just willing to eat more warranty work because they got a well deserved bad reputation and it was really starting to hurt sales. They've made progress in quality control,  but are still nowhere close to Honda and Toyota which aren't THAT much more money if you spread the payments out over 60 months.

I have a 99 Toyota Tacoma that I bought new and paid off last November. That truck has needed *nothing* except for normal wear and tear stuff like tires and brakes. Not one mechanical issue with it. It's a 4x4 and it is maintained, but definitely not babied. I'm pretty confident that I'll get another 5 years out of it, and still be able to sell it and make back more of  the difference than I would have saved if I had bought something like a Tuscon. Maybe it's me, but I always wind up disappointed when I shop for the bottom line instead of quality.

[ChadTower]

Yeah... half of what we want is the peace of mind that comes with that warranty... but your point makes sense and I'm considering it.

The issue we have with bottom line over quality is that we manage our finances so as to keep our monthly output as low as we can without sacrificing TOO much.  It may be that we're willing to go down from a Honda to a Hyundai in order to accomplish that.  I'll have to take a look at the raw numbers.  We likely will have to take a $1-2k loss on the Subaru in the process too.

[ChadTower]

Okay... I've done some research, talked with the wife.

It looks like we want to trade the Subaru in on a Hyundai Elantra 5D automatic.

Anyone have any opinions/advice?  I've never bought a NEW car before.

[Samstag]

Okay... I've done some research, talked with the wife.

It looks like we want to trade the Subaru in on a Hyundai Elantra 5D automatic.

Anyone have any opinions/advice?

[ChadTower]

I'll take a look at the site... all of the options I want are in the post above yours.  Thanks!

[DrewKaree]

If you are going through a dealership, obtain financing before going in. 

Haggle the price of the new car first, don't even mention that you have a trade in.  Get your best price on the new car.

Haggle the price of the trade-in. 

Deal with them as two separate transactions, and whenever they want to combine the two within the negotiations, make sure you bring them back to the right topic - what the current car you are dealign with will be valued at.

*edit*
If you have the time, and are willing to sit there for most of the day while they come to agree on a fair price for you, go to consumer reports and get their pricing for the vehicle you are picking up.  Figure out what you would consider a fair percentage of that price for the dealership to earn for them, and again, prepare to sit there for most of the day while you show them what the car cost them, and the amount you are willing to give them as a commission.  Doing it that way IS NOT a fun way to do it, but you'll be dealing with them on a FAR more level playing field. 

The report will cost a few bucks, but in the long run, you'll get it back in the money you save.

[ChadTower]

Code: [Select]

Chad,
        The selling price on a
2005 Elantra automatic is $11,699 after rebate and
discount.  If you have a Hyundai in your household, your price will be
$10,949.  You must ask for myself or the internet department to get
this price.  We are not based on commission.  This is why the
price is so low.  Please contact me with any questions. 
 
Thank you,

Just got that email from the local Hyundai dealer... now, that seems to be below the invoice that many sites are listing for that car.   For instance, Autobytel.com lists the invoice on this with standard tranny at $12,579.  Hrm.

[shmokes]

...the only car Subaru makes that even appears to have a soul is the WRX.

That made me smile.

[paigeoliver]

I liked the old Subaru Brats. I never owned one, but I always had a thing for cheesy early 80s cars.

[quarterback]

I liked the old Subaru Brats. I never owned one, but I always had a thing for cheesy early 80s cars.

I dated a girl with one of those.  What a goofy looking car/truck.   Like a mini El Camino with built in tail-gating seats.

[sodapopinski]

my honda has 522,000km and no engine work ever.

[DrewKaree]

They've got that new-retro version with the flop down tailgate and flip out rack for it.  The only thing it's missing is the jump seats, and in my state, if you can bolt it down and put seatbelts on it, you can use 'em!

[Trenchbroom]

I work as a total loss Auto Adjuster for a large insurance company.  #1 thing you must do if you are financing a vehicle is get Gap coverage on it (unless you are only financing 30% or less the value of the car).  ESPECIALLY if you are seriously thinking about getting a Korean car--Hyundais and Kias depreciate at an unbelievable rate.

Contact your insurance company first to see if they offer Gap coverage instead of adding it on to your financing--most finance companies will charge you $500 or so (flat rate and non-refundable) for Gap coverage.  My insurance company charges $8-$15 every 6 months for the same coverage AND you can delete the coverage once you are sure you will no longer owe more than the vehicle is worth if you total it.  However, my company only allows brand new vehicles that are added to a policy within the first 30 days of purchase to have Gap coverage, which is why you should check with your insurance company first before making the purchase. 

As for the type of vehicle to look for:  Paige is right to some degree--American cars can be very reliable and you will find them cheaper than most Japanese cars when buying used.  However, do your homework ahead of time--it is really a hit or miss situation with some makes and models, especially domestics. 

Hondas and Toyotas do command the highest money both new and used.  Their markets are pretty flat--you pay more to begin with, but after 5 years you will be able to trade them in for more (sometimes MUCH more) than most other vehicles in the same class.  It's up to you if paying more up front for what is pretty much guaranteed to be a reliable car with a high resale value is up to you...just depends on your budget and what you can find in your area. 

[ChadTower]

Okay what the <heck - edited by saint>.  I got a letter today saying I am in default on my wife's car and they are going to repossess it.  My records, and my bank's records, indicate I have made all of my payments plus a couple of additional payments.  I have payment dates of 3/18, 3/7, 2/19, 1/18... going back like that.  Yet the stupid bank claims I am in default.  How is that the these large banks manage to push people around like this and threaten them constantly, yet we get essentially no recourse?  If this takes more than a week or two to resolve, they're going to take the car, destroy my credit, and I'll likely still be out that money (it gets sent out automatically as cashier's checks).

[ChadTower]

so, I finally get a hold of the bank today... turns out we are $600 ahead of payment schedule.  The letter was "an unfortunate error on our part".  They send me a letter threatening to repossess my wife's car for no reason.  Jerkoffs.  The ironic part is that the car has been a huge problem for us and I was very tempted to say ---fudgesicle--- it and let them take it.

[danny_galaga]

geez, and you call ME a whiner 

just leave it in a rough part of town for a few days. someone will torch it or steal it (if its still running, havent had time to read through your screed). voila, insurance sorts it all out and you're in no way to blame so you won't have their detectives hassling you.

do i have to do ALL the thinking around here? 

[mrGrinch98]

Ok, I will try to help you a bit here on your Hyundai buy.  For a couple of years, I worked in a dealership where one of the brands we offered was the Hyundai line.  The first rule on buying a Hyundai, is do not trade a car in on a Hyundai buy.  There is little actual markup on the Hyundai's, so if you trade the car in, you wll be getting a bottom wholesale price back from the dealer since he has little markup to help "pad" his figures.  Your car would probably sell pretty quickly if you put an ad out there, as they seem to have a good reputation.

As for the Hyundai cars, they have come a long way in the past ten years.  The warranty was one of the ways it brought people back to the line, as the early Hyundai's that were brought over were junk.  While the warranty is a good one, do not be fooled that it covers everything.  Anything that is normal maintance is not covered, so it pays to have a close look at the warranty to make yourself aware.  You will never get a great amount of resale in a Hyundai, but thats offset by the fact that you will probably be keeping it for a bit.  Let me know if I can help anymore............

[ChadTower]

There is no rough part of where I live.  The roughest part of this suburbia is probably the apartment complex where my mother lives... and that's just a normal little apartment complex behind a McDonald's.  There's no credible way I could dump it in a crappy place and wait for someone to steal it, since I would have no logical reason to be in such a place. 

I'm not really expecting the Hyunday warranty to cover EVERYTHING.  It would be nice, though, to have it covered if the timing belt snaps, radiator goes, etc etc.  The 6 year part is fairly extensive and that's longer already than I've ever owned a car.

The one concern I have with a private sale of my car is that it has some type of engine knock.  My mechanic has said it's probably benign, a lifter arm or something and not an actual piston.  It's getting louder, though, and I really don't want to risk selling that privately and having it come back with a dead engine in 3 weeks, as unlikely as that is.

[danny_galaga]

There is no rough part of where I live.

[paigeoliver]

I think a lot of travellers end up seeing all the rough parts of town because the airports and bus stations are usually in terrible areas, and in general travellers tend to visit the cities, which by and large are terrible, most people live in the suburbs.

[danny_galaga]

hehe. no, its definitely my 'rough part of town' radar. driving from vancouver to the grand canyon for instance doesnt really allow me to be guided by airports and bus stations...

also, i guess every time ive dropped by drews place for a drink, theres been a burnt out car in front of his place (and several on bricks in the yard) and that may have coloured my perception 

[DrewKaree]

hehe. no, its definitely my 'rough part of town' radar. driving from vancouver to the grand canyon for instance doesnt really allow me to be guided by airports and bus stations...

also, i guess every time ive dropped by drews place for a drink, theres been a burnt out car in front of his place (and several on bricks in the yard) and that may have coloured my perception 

Somewhere I'm sensing that you are poking fun at me or that there's something bad with the scenario you bring up, but that all sounds normal to me












 

[ChadTower]

Okay, update:

Last night we went and test drove a 5 door, 2005 Hyundai Elantra.  It is almost exactly what we want, and the quoted price after rebates and all that is under $12k.  I'm happy with that car at that price...

The one sticking point we have left is the tradein.  They didn't seem to care about the engine knock (the car was warm and it was not that audible), but offered $3k for the car.  Kelly Bluebook puts its trade value at about $4300, which is probably high, but I don't know if I can take just $3k on it as we owe $5700.

Is the $3k low, or is it to be expected?  It's a 97 Outback Legacy wagon wiht 95k miles, body in very good shape, no major defects other than that engine knock.

[screaming]

Is the $3k low, or is it to be expected?  It's a 97 Outback Legacy wagon wiht 95k miles, body in very good shape, no major defects other than that engine knock.

  According to Edmunds, $3200 is about right for a trade-in value.

  You could try and argue for an extra $100 or $200, I'd say, but you probably won't get too far.  It's worth a shot!

-sab

[ChadTower]

Erm, am I reading that wrong, or does that link you provided show the tradein at $4200, not $3200?

[screaming]

Erm, am I reading that wrong, or does that link you provided show the tradein at $4200, not $3200?

  For me it shows the trade-in value at $3,221. $4,177 what you'd expect to get for your car if you sold it to a private party and $5,366 is what you'd expect to see it sold for at the dealership.  I may have selected a different color and I didn't know all the options you had on your car so I couldn't put those in   Maybe that's why it's different?

-sab

[clanggedin]

Edmunds numbers are pulled out of their a**. Don't ever go by Edmunds numbers. Utah vehicles are sold using the NADA guide, and the Banks use the Blue Book for financing because it has higher retail values.

We get people in here all of the time stating that Edmunds says we should be selling a car for X amount when we can't even buy the car at a dealer auction for that price.

Trade-in value from the April NADA guide (not their website which is updated quarterly) for a 97 Subaru Legacy Outback AWD with 95k miles is:

$5450 - Trade
$7075 - Retail

If it is a Limited it is:

$5700 - Trade
$7350 - Retail

Those are NADA values.

If the engine has a knock then trade-in will be less for it. If the dealership sells their vehicles at LOW BOOK then I would not take less than $3500. If they sell at Retail then I would not take less than $4000 - 4500.

You can buy 2005 Elantras all day and night at $12k. You need to work the salesman becuase they will have at least $1000 to play with.

Some dealerships will let you do a "trade-consign" where they guarantee you a certain amount, but then they sticker your car for more and if it sells for that price, then you get overage minus their consignment fee.

If the dealership will be selling your car directly to a used vehicle wholesaler then they will only offer you $3k, then they will mark it up a $1000 and sell it to them.

If the selsman wants the commission then he'll do whatever it takes to sell you the car, even if that means they have to give you more for your trade-in.

[clanggedin]

BTW... Blue Book Values are:

$6450 - Trade
$9485 - Retail

I didn't add for any options either. I left the stock values minus the mileage.

Add $300 for the Limited

[ChadTower]

So $4000 isn't really all that unreasonable a request, from what I am seeing, is that correct?

[clanggedin]

If you get $4000 then you only have to absorb $1700 in negative equity in the Elantra. If it is a 2005, then there is no book on it and you can finance up to MSRP if your credit is good enough.

Always go in high like having the dealership give you what you owe on it for trade, then you have room for negotiation. It's easier for them to settle at $4000 if they have talked you down $1700.

Remember, you can always walk away from the deal.

[ChadTower]

So the best plan, really, is to hold firm at 4k for the car.  I should be able to roll the 1700 into the auto loan for the new one with that type of loss...

[ChadTower]

UPDATE:

Deal is struck, our new car is at the dealer after two weeks of shipping.  We bought a 5 door, 2005 auto Elantra.  Got a good price with rebate and factory incentive, rolled our Subaru balance into it for just under $15k total.

We have to finish the paperwork and make the Subaru for Hyundai swap now.

[tommy]

Hyundai