Here we go again... dead detainee cover up at "The Salt Pit"

[Crazy Cooter]

News.Yahoo.Com Link

"In November 2002, a newly minted CIA (news - web sites) case officer in charge of a secret prison just north of Kabul allegedly ordered guards to strip naked an uncooperative young Afghan detainee, chain him to the concrete floor and leave him there overnight without blankets, according to four U.S. government officials aware of the case.
...
By morning, the Afghan man had frozen to death.
...
The CIA case officer, meanwhile, has been promoted, two of the officials said, who like others interviewed for this article spoke on the condition of anonymity because they are not authorized to talk about the matter. The case is under investigation by the CIA inspector general."

This is disturbing:
"The CIA wanted the Salt Pit to be a "host-nation facility," an Afghan prison with Afghan guards. Its designation as an Afghan facility was intended to give U.S. personnel some insulation from actions taken by Afghan guards inside, a tactic used in secret CIA prisons in other countries, former and current CIA officials said."

Spread our "democracy"?  Why?  Bunch of hypocrites.  The US has no idea of what freedom is.

[Santoro]

I won't defend any of these alleged activities, but I will say that I would bet lunch that every government on the planet uses similar tactics during wartime.  It is a shame that the US seems to be the only country that anyone cares to discuss when it comes to human rights violations. 

Compare these isolated incidents to the general and overt tryanny of the Taliban.  Can we get no credit whatsoever for making a net change for the better in Afghanistan?

Sheesh.

 

[SirPeale]

Spread our "democracy"?  Why?  Bunch of hypocrites.  The US has no idea of what freedom is.

Will you please stop asssociating all Americans in the same suite?  Our "elected" gov't != what the people want/do.

[missioncontrol]

uh-oh

[mr.Curmudgeon]

I won't defend any of these alleged activities, but I will say that I would bet lunch that every government on the planet uses similar tactics during wartime.

 

You won't defend them, yet, right on cue, you'll excuse them with a "but I will say". Can't you just say something like, "If this truly happened, then it is wrong!" Is that too much to ask for?

It is a shame that the US seems to be the only country that anyone cares to discuss when it comes to human rights violations. 

Funny. I don't find it a shame that the US, being one of the world's largest super powers, be held to a higher standard than the rest of the world. Shouldn't we lead by example, or doesn't pride mean anything anymore? Is it nothing more than a magnetic bumper sticker now?

Compare these isolated incidents to the general and overt tryanny of the Taliban.

So, you find no problem w/ comparing the U.S. to the Taliban? Even in isolated incidents? Sorry. I expect more from my countrymen.

Can we get no credit whatsoever for making a net change for the better in Afghanistan?

Sheesh.

Bush just "OK'd" a budget cut of $1.5 BILLION dollars, a good portion of which was meant to go toward aiding reconstruction in Afghanistan. These cuts comprise 50% of their reconstruction aid from the U.S....and the country is already sort on aid as it is.

So yeah, he should get credit for making the initial successes in Afghanistan, but he should also have his feet held to the fire if he fails to complete the task. Stabilizing Afghanistan is a vital part of the WoT, and it's going to take more than an election to do it.

Sheesh.


mrC

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Uh oh, is right.

This, w/ the bombing in Iraq that has killed 150+, coupled with the latest news that American soldiers have just shot an Italian Journalist who was *just* released by her kidnappers in Iraq and things aren't looking so good for Bush's Middle East adventures.



mrC

[Dartful Dodger]

things aren't looking so good for Bush's Middle East adventures.

2000 years ago, Jesus's Middle East adventures didn't look so good.

[Santoro]

Can't you just say something like, "If this truly happened, then it is wrong!" Is that too much to ask for?

If this truly happened, then it is wrong!

[Gunstar Hero]

Wow, first politics and now religion already?

That may be a record gentlemen!

[mr.Curmudgeon]

2000 years ago, Jesus's Middle East adventures didn't look so good.

ROFL. Isn't that blasphemy?

[mr.Curmudgeon]

I get annoyed when lone --missioncontrols-- are portrayed as the face of the United States.

My point in bringing it up is that, while unfortunate, we need to uphold such high standards and act accordingly when they are undermined, solely *because* lone --missioncontrols-- like this will be portrayed as the face of the United States. That's the price we pay for having such power.

Hey, we agreed twice in one thread.  Not bad.

Surely Hell hath frozen over? 

mrC

[Santoro]

Sure enough.

[HaRuMaN]

Uh oh, is right.

This, w/ the bombing in Iraq that has killed 150+, coupled with the latest news that American soldiers have just shot an Italian Journalist who was *just* released by her kidnappers in Iraq and things aren't looking so good for Bush's Middle East adventures.



mrC

The vehicle she was in was approaching a coalition checkpoint at a very high rate of speed.  Considering the increasing number of car-bombings there, I would say it was a justifiable mistake, and she's fortunate to be alive.

[Crazy Cooter]

I get annoyed when lone --missioncontrols-- are portrayed as the face of the United States.

How many "lone --missioncontrols--" have there been now?  With all the mistakes/accidents/whatever that have been happening, this is the face of America that we are showing the world.  Why can't we live what we preach?  Instead here's another example of trying to "cheat the system".

Bush needs serious help in foreign relations.

Peale, if we agree or not with what our Country does, we still have to answer for it.  What our govmnt does is seen as the "will of the people" by those living outside the US.  And with all the abuse stuff, "sidestepping" of the US constitution and the Geneva Conventions, and all the other "stuff" we've talked about, I really don't think that the people making the decisions have a clue what freedom is.  We, as the public, are supposed to be the puppeteers of our govmnt.  I think somewhere it got turned around.  If a person/country wanted to get revenge for what they see is wrong, they aren't going to try and find the policy makers, they'll take it out on the first American they see.  We're all stuck in the same boat whether we like it or not.

Santoro, to get partial credit for something like this is absurd.  We're supposed to fighting against this exact kind of behaivior, not promoting it under "certain conditions".

[Santoro]

[Santoro, to get partial credit for something like this is absurd. We're supposed to fighting against this exact kind of behaivior, not promoting it under "certain conditions".

So there are literally thousands and thousands of men and women risking thier lives to make things better in Afghanistan, but it all comes to naught because of a bad dude in some prison?

[Crazy Cooter]

I'd agree with you if the ones committing the acts were the only ones at fault.  But there's a bigger problem here.  Why is there this kind of effort to circumvent the Geneva Conventions and our own constitution?  Why are places like The Salt Pit created?  Why are people in high positions making decisions to encourage and facilitate this behaivior?

I don't understand how someone (who I don't know) can tell our troops to go over there to spread democracy and then in the same breath create places like this.  This is what we're supposed to be fighting against.

This guy will get court martialled (hopefully), but what about the people that gave the orders to create it in the first place?  All they did was shuffle the shells around.
"The brick factory has since been torn down, and the CIA has built a facility somewhere else."

[DrewKaree]

But please, stop hyperventilating about how the the US as a whole doesn't know what freedom is.  It is a crazy stretch, and it doesn't hold up.

I came across this while looking for something for dwayne....seems to fit and mebbe you can take something from it.  Cheer up, Dave, the majority of folks see the greater good and don't assign the same "throw 'em all under the bus" idea to what we're achieving.  Perhaps you've heard the Ward Churchill uproar....he shares similar concepts, as you can see.


"What to Do With Misguided Americans
Friday, February 11, 2005
By Bill O'Reilly

(I know, many just stopped reading and will ignore it or "there you go" to themselves)

Wendy, I'm withholding her last name, who lives in Michigan, wrote me an e-mail Wednesday night, saying:

"O'Reilly, out of all the hate groups in America, you go after Ward Churchill who speaks the truth. Have you read the real history of the USA? Attacks on this country, verbal or violent, are the results of hundreds of years of not minding our manners."

Now as we mentioned Wednesday, about 10 percent of Americans feel the way this woman does, that's 30 million people. The question, how do you handle these folks? In your personal life you should walk away. Don't bother trying to convince Wendy of anything. There's no way anyone is going to change their point of view because it's irrational. Stay away from irrational people. It's always good advice.

But statements from anti-American people should be confronted in the arena of ideas. Anyone thinks the USA is a bad country should be directed to cemeteries all over Europe, all over the Pacific Islands and memorials in South Korea and scores of other countries attesting to the fact that brave Americans died defending people from terrible villains. That's real history.

No country on this planet has freed more human beings than the USA. That's real history. America is not a perfect place, but it is a place that respects human life and freedom.

Let's take Vietnam, for example. Extremists like Jane Fonda and Ward Churchill condemned U.S. action there, but when I visited in 1992, scores of South Vietnamese came up to me saying how much they despised the communist government.

And indeed, almost a million Vietnamese were put into concentration camps after the U.S. left. And two million people were murdered by the communist government in neighboring Cambodia.

America was in Vietnam to prevent the spread of communism, which is a brutal form of government. Right now, the USA is facing another brutal evil, terrorism. And people like Wendy and Churchill are rooting for the terrorists. There's something morally wrong with that position. So again, it must be confronted and condemned by loyal Americans."




We're doing the right thing, and punishing the abuses that are happening. 

[Crazy Cooter]

So are the CIA guys that are still creating these camps misguided too? 

Bill can't comprehend the other side of the fence here:
"America was in Vietnam to prevent the spread of communism, which is a brutal form of government. Right now, the USA is facing another brutal evil, terrorism. And people like Wendy and Churchill are rooting for the terrorists. There's something morally wrong with that position. So again, it must be confronted and condemned by loyal Americans."

Umm, yeah Bill... China is just like terrorists and 30 million US citizens are hoping for another terrorist attack. This is exactly my point when i said people can be blinded by pride.  He can't look at this objectively.  Not to mention his #'s for Cambodia are wrong.  In 1975 there was about 7.5 Million people in Cambodia.  Not to belittle anything, but the Govmnt did not murder every 4th man, woman, and child.  I *believe* it was around 1/4 million over the span of 30+ years.  My point is that the numbers he says are waaaay off.  Just like his "understanding" of what is going on now.

[saint]

See, this is why Bill comes across to so many people as a nimrod instead of a rational conservative voice. He goes from quoting Wendy:

"O'Reilly, out of all the hate groups in America, you go after Ward Churchill who speaks the truth. Have you read the real history of the USA? Attacks on this country, verbal or violent, are the results of hundreds of years of not minding our manners."

to this:

"And people like Wendy and Churchill are rooting for the terrorists. There's something morally wrong with that position. So again, it must be confronted and condemned by loyal Americans."

I'm sorry - I don't see anywhere in what Wendy said that she was rooting for the terrorists. Bill, it is possible to think your country has done something wrong and still love your country. Here's an analogy:

Kid "a" picks on another kid "b."  Teases and taunts. Kid "b" takes a stick and beats the heck out of kid "a."  The parent of kid "a" finds out the details, and tells kid "a" that he was wrong to have taunted/teased kid "b." The parent also takes the kid to the hospital, presses charges against kid "b," and does whatever else most people would think is appropriate such as teaching kid "a" self-defense, urging the school to address kid "b" to keep kid "a" safe, etc. It's acknowledged that while kid "a" was wrong in taunting kid "b," kid "b" was clearly wrong to respond the way kid 'b" did.

Bill's logic in condemning Wendy as an disloyal American who is rooting for the terrorists is analagous to someone telling the parent of kid "a" that they are a disloyal parent who doesn't love their kid and thinks kid "b" was right for beating the tar out of kid "a" just because the parent condemned kid "a" for taunting/teasing kid "b."

Well, that's just stupid. It's entirely possible, logical, and consistent to condemn the behavior of our country prior to terrorist attacks on our country, while condemning the actions of the terrorists.

Now, whether or not you agree with the position that our country's policies encouraged the terrorist attacks on us is one thing. To call in question the loyalty and to condemn those who do so is another. I think Ward is a nimrod who had no sensitivity to those who were hurt in the 9/11 attacks. Somewhere in his inane essay though was the point that it is the policies of our country that led to this attack. Wendy's point clearly seems to be that she believes America's policies have alienated other people and caused them to hate us. Maybe that's a valid point, maybe it's not. However, if she believes it then not only is it her right as an American to express that point, by God it's practically her patriotic duty to do so. 

A parent who thinks her child is going astray has a duty to say so and do something about it. A loyal citizen of a country isn't any different when concerning the behavior/policies of their country.  That doesn't mean they are rooting for our enemies. That's a plain falsehood and I firmly believe Bill knows that.

So Bill, who could have taken the opportunity to either 1) affirm the perspective that America's policies have led to anti-American hatred, or 2) deny that America's policies have led to anti-American hatred, instead chose to go on about how great America is and to encourage everyone to condemn Wendy as a disloyal American for speaking her mind on the issue.

Yes, I love my country, think we're the good guys, and believe that America truly is a great country -- that doesn't mean I always agree with what it does. The attitude that you have to agree with everything your country does if you love it is moronic. Nothing I see from Wendy's quote indicates that she hates or is disloyal to her country.

-----------
I read and watch Bill fairly often. Sometimes he has points I agree with, sometimes I don't, but either way he often gives me something to think about. Then he does something stupid like this.  Bill knows better and should be ashamed of himself.

--- saint

[mr.Curmudgeon]

...

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Bill knows better and should be ashamed of himself.

While I agree with your statement in it's entirety, shame will not stop him from doing it. This sort of condemnation, of those who disagree w/ America's policies, as terrorist sympathizers, is coming from some of the deepest levels of the right-wing media machine. It's being encouraged and it will only continue, if not grow worse.

It's loathsome, and un-American. In fact, threatening those you'd desire to silence by accusing them of being traitors, and/or terrorists, is in fact, a terrorist methodology. It cheapens the dialog and muddies the water. It sickens me, and Godwin be damned.

This sort of fascist behavior was prevalent in the lead-up to Nazism in pre-war Germany. I also find it an astonishing parallel that the right-wing extremists in Germany started with the discrimination of homosexuals and moved on from there.

Now, am I calling the Republicans Nazis?? I ask you all look at this behavior and you be the judge. It certainly seems to me to be step in that direction.

The right-wing rants against the "communist/pinko/terrorist-friendly" left, often reminds me of the below passage:

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

- Pastor Martin Niem

[Santoro]

That is being contested by the reporter herself.

So the Italians kept the negotiations secret, tried to fly by checkpoints and expected no problems?http://www.washtimes.com/world/20050307-120131-5769r.htm

What possible motive would we have to purposely ambush an Italian hostage?  MrC, do you question any anti US claim? 

[Dartful Dodger]

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew
....
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

- Pastor Martin Niem

[ChadTower]

No one ever mentioned the Gypsies and several other cultures that were far more thoroughly extinguished than the Jews.  That annoys me.

As for being held to a higher standard, I don't care.  I want us doing what needs to be done to protect us.  This higher standard is crap.  We send out trillions of dollars a year in aid, dollars that should be spent here, and yet we get no credit for that.  I want those dollars back.  Pull the aid, pull the troops from around the world, and let the rest of the planet torch itself so long as it stays 1000 miles from our nearest border.

[Grasshopper]

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew
....
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

- Pastor Martin Niem

[ChadTower]

Sorry Dartful but your romantic notion of freedom loving civilians heading for the hills with their handguns is 200 years out of date. Real wars these days are fought with tanks, laser guided missiles, planes, and perhaps even nuclear weapons. Ordinary soldiers with handguns are only sent in to mop up after all the real damage has been done with more sophisticated weapons.
 

That wasn't the case in 1938, you know, when this all happened.

[Dartful Dodger]

Sorry Dartful but your romantic notion of freedom loving civilians heading for the hills with their handguns is 200 years out of date.

Sorry Grasshopper but your Nazi dreams of laser guided missiles killing only Jews are 200 to early.

[fredster]

Funny. I don't find it a shame that the US, being one of the world's largest super powers, be held to a higher standard than the rest of the world.

I agree, but not to some impossible Standard.

[Grasshopper]

Sorry Dartful but your romantic notion of freedom loving civilians heading for the hills with their handguns is 200 years out of date. Real wars these days are fought with tanks, laser guided missiles, planes, and perhaps even nuclear weapons. Ordinary soldiers with handguns are only sent in to mop up after all the real damage has been done with more sophisticated weapons.
 

That wasn't the case in 1938, you know, when this all happened.

So the Nazis didn't have planes and tanks. Interesting.

It was the Nazis who invented the concept of bombing a civilian population into submission. I take it you've heard of Guernica.

[Grasshopper]

Sorry Dartful but your romantic notion of freedom loving civilians heading for the hills with their handguns is 200 years out of date.

Sorry Grasshopper but your Nazi dreams of laser guided missiles killing only Jews are 200 to early.  For a government to go after Jews, Communists, trade unionists, and then me, they'd still need to come to my door.

A Glock is as effective deterrent in stopping a man at my door today as it was 200 years ago.

Your argument is based on the premise that the Nazis worried about killing innocent (from their perspective) bystanders. I don't think history is on your side here.

For example when Reinhard Heydrich was assasinated by the Czech resistance the Nazis flattened an entire Czech village as revenge and to deter future assassinations.

[Dartful Dodger]

Your argument is based on the premise that the Nazis worried about killing innocent (from their perspective) bystanders.

You are talking about killing an enemy.  The Nazis never flattened an entire German village to kill one Jew.

I don't think

I agree.

If the German civilians weren't disarmed, they may have been able to stop the Nazis army themselves.

[NIVO]

We(as collective US folks) are gonna cram freedom down your throats whether you want to be free or not!!! hehe 

[Crazy Cooter]

I'd say that "Wendy" is adhering to our Enemies and giving them aid and comfort.

lol.
You're too much fredster.

What should people do when they disagree with what government does?

[ChadTower]

So the Nazis didn't have planes and tanks. Interesting.

It was the Nazis who invented the concept of bombing a civilian population into submission. I take it you've heard of Guernica.

They didn't use them inside Germany, did they?  That's where it all began.  There is the chance that an armed civilian populace makes it MUCH HARDER to start rounding up people for known extermination.  That's why they TOOK the sidearms.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

I'd say that "Wendy" is adhering to our Enemies and giving them aid and comfort.

lol.
You're too much fredster.

What should people do when they disagree with what government does?

Tell me again how this sort of thing coming from people on the Right *isn't* reminescent of Nazi behavior??  And...There's more....

Limbaugh, from yesterday:
It would be nice, just for a week if the Republicans did treat Democrats like lower life forms.

Just so we're all clear, Rush Limbaugh, one of the most popular right-wing media personalities spread this hateful comment live on the air. It's also important to note that Rush's previous behavior has garnered a "big hug" from President Bush, when he was *invited* to the White House.

How can anyone support this kind of filth?

mrC

[Santoro]

I'm no fan of Rush L, but where is your sense of humor?

Lighten up buddy.