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Author Topic: Iraq Elections  (Read 12395 times)

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Dexter

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #40 on: February 02, 2005, 11:38:26 am »
No, but approx 70% of europe does in general share my views (and don't worry, I didn't forget poland LOL!!)

iwillfearnoevil

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #41 on: February 02, 2005, 11:55:48 am »
That's one thing, maybe the only thing, Bush has done right.

fredster

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2005, 12:17:50 pm »
As I understand it, 95% of all statistics are made up on the spot  8)
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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2005, 12:47:16 pm »
As I understand it, 95% of all statistics are made up on the spot

ChadTower

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #44 on: February 02, 2005, 01:01:29 pm »
Wow.  The guy can't even let someone have a joke without telling the person they are wrong.   ::)

Dexter

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #45 on: February 02, 2005, 01:41:03 pm »
Theres a winking smiley there for a reason man  :)

mr.Curmudgeon

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2005, 04:40:39 pm »
As Bush continues to gloat at you with his beedy little dead black-eyes, and as he continues to take credit for the elections that happen in Iraq, it's important to remember, that he never wanted these elections to take place.

Just like the 9/11 commission, the Bush administration fought tooth and nail against a truly free and fair election in Iraq. They had other plans...which didn't quite work out the way they had hoped.

http://www.needlenose.com/node/view/1043


mrC

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2005, 05:03:00 pm »
I see the formula Mr C is using now:

(open)
  Bush insult
  Bush charge based on biased web article that could have been
    written by anyone

(next)
  Bush charge

Oh wait, dude, you left out the history lesson and the implication that anyone reading this is of inferior intellect.


fredster

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #48 on: February 02, 2005, 05:43:41 pm »
SSSHhhhh Chad.

That's always been the liberal's best move...
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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #49 on: February 02, 2005, 06:45:57 pm »
One thing you guys need to remember is that Democracy is not "the best".  It's only one of amny different systems.  You're basing your arguement on it being what everyone wants to achieve and that isn't true.  What would we be saying if China went into Iraq to spread communism?  The people would have more freedom under communism than they did under Saddam, so would that have been an acceptable solution?  History says no.

It comes down to thinking that everyone wants to be like us.  Not everyone does.  Some people value other things.  They don't want to own a BMW, they don't even want to see one.  That's what I see as the major "problem" of GW & his crew.  They have zero ability to see things from a different angle.  That's what concerns me.  Watch tonight and see if you hear anything about the people that didn't vote.  See if they get mentioned as being too afraid to vote or if they get mentioned as not wanting to vote.

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #50 on: February 02, 2005, 08:21:46 pm »
Wow Shmokes, I mean Cooter,  you never cease to amaze!

Not only have you analyzed the entire poltical spectrum and determined that democracy isn't the best, you have even come to the conclusion that commies are mommies.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2005, 10:51:24 pm by fredster »
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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #51 on: February 02, 2005, 10:43:00 pm »
Heheh, Shmokes gets the blame... :angel:

jbox

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #52 on: February 02, 2005, 10:54:56 pm »
Heheh, Shmokes gets the blame... :angel:

Guess it's too hard to be righteous in two threads a time and remember which lib'rl heathen you're currently attacking. :D

Although for the record, I'd be concerned if you really think democracy isn't the most equitable electoral system of them all. However, I'm more than happy to agree that capitalism as an equitable economic system needs some work (but I sure like being able to vote on that opinion)...
Done. SLATFATF.

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #53 on: February 02, 2005, 11:14:41 pm »
Quote
After all, why else claim that total warfare is the *ONLY* alternative to oil dependance?

It wasn't total. It was isolated and it was strategic. 
What exactly were the other options?

Quote
Israel stands only with the US, and we are drawn into a war with a contient to fight off.

"A continent to fight off" is "isolated and it was strategic"? I guess you must be thinking of when the time comes you have to attack Australia! :D Or perhaps you confused the fact I was rebutting your "it was either Iraq or the WORLD" doomsday post, because then you wouldn't have something cool to say in retort. :-*

And there are lots of alternatives to oil-for-fuel, after which we could conserve this limited resource for building those things that need oil like plastic. Hence my suspicion that you are in fact a mole for the Greens, just as keen as I am to conserve this precious commidity from being wasted where it doesn't need to be (like SUVs). Don't worry, I wont tell anyone else so your secret is safe with me Comrade! 8)
Done. SLATFATF.

DrewKaree

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #54 on: February 03, 2005, 04:26:16 am »
No, but approx 70% of europe does in general share my views (and don't worry, I didn't forget poland LOL!!)

And a percentage of Iraqi people equal to your claim of "they agree with me" turned out to show their agreement with what Bush is attempting to establish. 

All of Europe can agree with you, but you're ignoring the people who matter in this "debate".  The Iraqi people themselves have spoken.  Your opinion, and the opinion of all who agree with you, matters very little to those who enjoyed voicing their political opinion.

Also, as ill-informed as I'd like for you to continue sounding, I'd like to point something out that you choose to ignore in your latest "I hate Bush" tirades.

You continue to put forth your crackpot view that we're "forcing" this process on the Iraqi people.

Let's drop the % of reported voters in Iraq's elections.  Drop it to half.  50%. 

When 50% of America (actually, 47%) said they didn't want Bush, to you, that was tantamount to all of America saying "Boot 'im out!"

In Iraq, when 50% (actually, more than that, but to dumb it down for ya) say they want to give the process "Bush forced on them", that means they've chosen to "give it a whirl".  When someone chooses to try something out, when more than half the nation wants to give it a go, your "it was forced" bilge is simply another attempt to throw as much crap against the wall to see what sticks.

The IRAQI people chose.  They went to vote, under conditions that Americans equate with "voter disenfranchisement"...actually, under conditions that make American voters seem like SISSIES for complaining about their "hardships".  To say that this was "forced" on them is either ignorant, or another tactic you choose to employ to take as many cheap shots as you can.  I actually suspect it's both.

It's yet another reason his supporters like him.  Bush didn't find it necessary to call ol' Dexter and see what he thought, and what Johnny Left-wing thought, and Joe We-need-tolerance thought.  It's the "Git 'er done" that we like.  That it galls you to no end is simply a side benefit we enjoy daily.

Hey Cooter, what was your intended purpose with this thread, again?  It seems to have become another "bash Bush" thread.  I wonder if you ever got your questions answered.

My answers being posthumous

     I thought there'd be about half the nation turn out
     Same reason Americans not currently in the U.S. get to vote
     I think it's xx amount of votes (and that there will be less fraud found than in the U.S.)
     Entire groups of people in the U.S. don't vote.  Our elections aren't any less valid
     If boycotted, they still made a choice in the elections
     One more observation - the U.S. needed to make a drop of wet naps to the polling places
« Last Edit: February 03, 2005, 04:44:40 am by DrewKaree »
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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #55 on: February 03, 2005, 09:33:38 pm »
Not voting because your not interested is one thing (prevelant in the US), not voting because you disagree with the whole process (ala the Sunni's) is a different story altogether.

Suppose that Native Americans boycotted the next elections in the US.  (I know, not the same as Sunni's, but I can't think of a better example so I'll point at myself)  Would they consider the election fair?  No.  Would they respect the new governments decisions?  No.  How would they feel if people started saying what a success it was?  Bitter.

I don't view the elections as a success because it isolated an entire section (~35%?) of the population.  I don't see this as being the proper direction to take.  That's not being ignorant, that's being honest.  Whatever concerns they have about the process are being ignored.  I don't see this course of action as stabilizing the area.  I think somebody somewhere should find out what the gripe is about.  Then take steps towards addressing these concerns so that everyone feels comfortable with the direction their country is going.  If they just get ignored, they will put up a stink.  In the Middle East that stink is usually a bunch of bullets.  So I ask myself out loud... Civil war or continued war?  Or will someone see the big picture and address the concerns of the people?  I don't see it getting any easier around there when THAT many people are upset.

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #56 on: February 04, 2005, 12:55:06 am »
Quote
Guess it's too hard to be righteous in two threads a time and remember which lib'rl heathen you're currently attacking.

Jbox, where's the link to your Mame Machine?  Or are you just trolling around here?

Cooter, Mr.C, and Shmokes are well known members of the BYOAC.  We have these arguments all the time.  Some of us even like them. (I don't know who right now, but some of us)

Cooter,
Man, what does this mean -
Quote
Suppose that Native Americans boycotted the next elections in the US.  (I know, not the same as Sunni's, but I can't think of a better example so I'll point at myself)  Would they consider the election fair?  No.  Would they respect the new governments decisions?  No.  How would they feel if people started saying what a success it was?  Bitter.

At best, it's a terrible comparison.  The religious Right boycotted the 2000 Presidential election.

This thing wasn't perfect, but it's got to start somewhere.  What is your idea of what should be going on?  Pick some despot and put him place and cut an run?  Is that what you believe?

This is the first of a series of elections. As I understand it, the next one is to ratify the consitution these people are going to write.  The last one is to elect whomever the new consitution outlines.

It's a first step that has been planned for awhile. Regardless of how people feel about the Basis of the war, they have to believe we need to follow this path out.  What are the other options?

Quote
Then take steps towards addressing these concerns so that everyone feels comfortable with the direction their country is going.
  Really, can that happen? Can everybody feel comfortable? Is it possible? Are you comfortable with the way the US is going?  50 million would be upset now in the US right?

My feeling is the best we can hope for is to get the ball rolling ASAP.  Hold thier hand until they can develop the internal systems for keeping their goverment in control.  If we walk out too soon, the Military will be uncontrolled.  Look at Pakistan, the military took it over what, 4 years ago?

I'm not really up on the Marshall Plan in Japan, but this is about the same situation.  We had to develop that country's goverment systems into a free system from the Military control. It took several years.

But I guess it was worth it.  Now we have Anime!






King of the Flying Monkeys from the Dark Side

jbox

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2005, 02:17:03 am »
Quote
Jbox, where's the link to your Mame Machine?  Or are you just trolling around here?

Heh heh, I like your emphasis on trolling. Makes it sound like a Back To The Future movie: "C'mon McFly, post your cab pictures already, or are you too chicken to match your woodwork to mine (bwwwaakk, bwak, bwak, bwak)!" 8)   That is so cool that I think you deserve another gold star, this one is a serving platter so it's useful too!

  http://www.lovetoparty.co.nz/images/Gold%20Star%20Server_small.jpg

(and I admit, that while name-calling fellow agnostics as christians is always a hoot, calling you a Green was probably in poor taste - sorry about that one fredster :( )

Now, because I'm almost out of Gummy-berry juice - what do people think the reaction would be if these 'founding fathers' of the future Iraq decide to draw two more lines on the map and just be done with each other once and for all? It was my understanding that after G.W.1 the kurds brought up the idea of getting sovereignty but nothing ever happened. I mean, apart from that whole water and oil thing, it would be fascinating to see how the world responded to that, and it would certainly eliminate any of this "I don't want to share a government with them" complaints...

Do *you* think it would change anything other than re-classifying the resulting 'civil unrest' as 'border skirmishes'?
Done. SLATFATF.

DrewKaree

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2005, 03:31:16 am »

 That is so cool that I think you deserve another gold star, this one is a serving platter so it's useful too!

 http://www.lovetoparty.co.nz/images/Gold%20Star%20Server_small.jpg


It looks better like this: 


I wondered what Floyd would turn out like when he got older.  Thankfully you came around to let us know....and give us an international version.

Didja give a couple of those posts a run past danny, or are ya still giving it the ol' college try?

I've got a better idea for fredster, jbox.  I suggest he sits there and waits for you to tell him what you would do about the situation.  After all, we all know it's easy to throw crap.  It's a whole lot harder to offer solutions.  Kinda puts your neck out there on the line for any jabroni to take a stab at.  Perhaps you'll impart your wisdom as to how best handle the present situation so we can debate the merits of YOUR ideas, or if someone just shook you up before opening.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2005, 03:35:32 am by DrewKaree »
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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #59 on: February 04, 2005, 09:10:38 am »
Guys... think this through.  These elections, this gov't, this invasion, none of it has anything to do with freedom or Hussein and little to do with WMDs.  These are military decisions that WILL pay unprecedented dividends.as for whether or not it should have been done, that's another discussion, but think about the military implications here.

The Middle East is the only region of the Earth that is both universally antiAmerican AND powerful enough to do something about it.  We have NO real foothold there and NO practical way to stage against a united front coming from the Middle East.  We never have, and once the USSR fell, the Middle East became the main focus of our defense (Reagan started it even before the USSR fall was complete).

This is why we have our relationship with Israel.  We're basically protecting them in order to have a real ally in that region, even if that causes the problem to be worse.  It has been our best option.  The same with Saudi Arabia.  Liberals LOVE to point out how most of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudis.  Well, what are we to do, turn our back on the only potential staging area we have with proximity to Iran?  That would be a poor military decision, but we cannot continue to have these links with a country that is overtly supporting the very terrorism we have sworn to destroy.  It's hypocrisy and transparent hypocrisy at that.

The best military decision that could have been made was to take advantage of Hussein and his flouting of the UN, his posession of WMDs (don't bother saying he didn't have them, everyone agreed he did, even the French), and the fact that his mighty regime was a house of cards.  Finding a bunch of mason jars in a desert country full of caves was never going to happen anyway.  What happened was we took Iraq, are in the process of establishing a friendly but more importantly completely reliant gov't there, for military purposes.  They NEED us there, and in return, we're building permanent military installations NEXT TO IRAN AND SAUDI ARABIA.  Once Iraq's new gov't is stable, we will be permanently militarily installed smack in the middle of tha region.  The strategic implications of that CHANGE THE WORLD.  We can cut the farcical ties to Saudi Arabia, we no longer have to listen to Iran talk about nuclear weapons if we don't want to, and in order to get us out of the region they will have to start World War III.

Now, I'm not justifying these actions morally, nor am I saying I agree with them.  What I am doing is pointing these things out since no one seems to be talking about the military implications of any of this.  Explained militarily, all of things that supposedly make no sense make perfect sense.

Dexter

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #60 on: February 04, 2005, 09:41:40 am »
Also, the financial implications. When explained in terms of loss of investment in the Euro (which leading financial experts always touted as a reason for the invasion), the invasion also makes sense. It just didn't go to plan.

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #61 on: February 04, 2005, 11:53:24 am »
In Iraq, when 50% (actually, more than that, but to dumb it down for ya) say they want to give the process "Bush forced on them", that means they've chosen to "give it a whirl".

*BWAAACK* Polly want a cracker with those figures??

"The point is: Nobody knows, and reporters and pundits should have never acted like they did know when they stated, flatly, that 8 million Iraqis voted and that this represents a turnout rate of about 57%. "

...

"In a rare reference to an actual vote tabulation, The New York Times on Thursday reports that in the "diverse" city of Mosul, with 60% of the count completed, the overall turnout seems slightly above 10%, or "somewhat more than 50,000 of Mosul's 500,000 estimated eligible voters."



EDIT: Updated numbers.

"In al-Anbar it was only 17,000 of 250,000 eligible voters, or 7% turnout.  In Mosul, a city of 1.8 million people, only 54,000 votes were cast (3% of the population, so probably no more than 5% of the eligible voters).  At one poll in Mosul only 3% of voters were women.  At another, which opened at 7:00, at 10:00 they didn't have a single voter except the soldiers assigned to protect it."


Things are not always as they seem...


mrC
« Last Edit: February 04, 2005, 12:25:17 pm by mr.Curmudgeon »

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #62 on: February 04, 2005, 12:22:47 pm »
These are military decisions that WILL pay unprecedented dividends.

Most people arguing against the war realize we are there for these reasons, and *not* for any of the other misleading/ever-changing rationales (WMD, Nu-c-u-lar Weapons, Weapons of Mass Destruction-Related Program Activities, Saddam tried to kill my daddy, Rape Rooms, Iraqi GOTV, etc...). The problem is when the real reason is obvious to everyone in the world, yet, we as a nation are seen to except these other lies at face value, America's integrity is eroded and our enemies are further emboldened. The ultimate goal is to defeat them, not give them more reasons to fight.

Will you still believe we're receiving "unprecedented dividends" once Arab nationals decide to bring the war to our front-door, with suicide bombings in the mall of America and school bus bombings in your neighborhood?

You may believe that sort of thing is bound to happen, I am merely suggesting that our aggressive actions in provoking war, without justification, are making sure it'll happen... in spades.

Most critics of Bush's doctrine of preemption in Iraq agree there were other ways to do what needed to be done in the Middle East...preemptively attacking Iraq was *not*, by far, the most effective way to go about it...and I feel, in the end, our country will certainly receive "payback", but not the kind your thinking of.

mrC
« Last Edit: February 04, 2005, 12:29:42 pm by mr.Curmudgeon »

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #63 on: February 04, 2005, 12:35:34 pm »

You've responded to a military strategy discussion with morality issues.  It's a different discussion.

Quote
The ultimate goal is to defeat them, not give them more reasons to fight.

How do you defeat an enemy without giving them reason to fight you?

Quote
The problem is when the reason is obvious to everyone in the world, yet, we as a nation are seen to except these lies at face value...

Ever been to a business meeting, where organizational decisions are made but much of the rationale is held back with the explanation of "we can't discuss those issues publicly"?  That's what this is, only it's far more severe because we're talking global military issues.  They can't openly discuss all of the reasons.  This is one of those times one has to think about the major reasons for themself because open discussion of them will get more Americans killed.

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #64 on: February 04, 2005, 01:10:14 pm »
You've responded to a military strategy discussion with morality issues.  It's a different discussion.

Maybe so, but I tend to think of war as a moral issue.

Quote
How do you defeat an enemy without giving them reason to fight you?

Good question...I'm not suggesting it's entirely avoidable, rather that it isn't efficient to proceed creating more and unifiying others. Which, until we see how the election process plays out, is certainly a possibility, and I would argue, a reality.

Quote
The problem is when the reason is obvious to everyone in the world, yet, we as a nation are seen to except these lies at face value...

Quote
Ever been to a business meeting, where organizational decisions are made but much of the rationale is held back with the explanation of "we can't discuss those issues publicly"?

Yes. Yes I have. I also know that most "employees" intuitively know the real reasons and lose faith in the company afterward.

Quote
This is one of those times one has to think about the major reasons for themself because open discussion of them will get more Americans killed.

Not when starting a war. Short term, yes, less violence and less american casualties. Long term, continued uprising, unbearable cost burden, isolation in the world. It's just unacceptable to me. This notion is basically sanctioning imperialistic behavior, by imagining no one else sees it. That is not my idea of America.

I understand what you are suggesting, however, I'm not trying to convince you of anything...just stating my response.

mrC

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #65 on: February 04, 2005, 01:23:28 pm »
I for one, tend not to trust people that have already misled me. Call me crazy.

So then would you vote for Hilary Clinton if she ran for president? What if Billy boy Clinton ran again, would you vote for him? What about Mr. John Kerry, would you vote for him? (I'm not asking these questions to be an arsehole, I'm asking them with an honest sincerity.) All of them misled the American people. Bill Clinton with his sex scandal, Kerry with half of his campaign, and Hilary, claiming she was going to help gas prices in New York, and yet tried her best to sway minds of certain political leaders to force a 30 cents a gallon tax rate on gasoline. Because of her, I have not been able to fill my 12.3 gallon tank of gas for less than 28 dollars. I'm shelling almost 60 dollars a week out on gas, while getting almost 31 miles to the gallon. I don't even drive that much!

Back on topic. To say that this election was a failure would be a mistake. The fact that they're finally able to have an election rather than a leader who was either put there as a puppet for another nation (and then became a militant totalitarian) or led because they killed the leader, is a step up for them.

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #66 on: February 04, 2005, 02:23:17 pm »
You've responded to a military strategy discussion with morality issues.  It's a different discussion.

Maybe so, but I tend to think of war as a moral issue.

Quote
How do you defeat an enemy without giving them reason to fight you?

Good question...I'm not suggesting it's entirely avoidable, rather that it isn't efficient to proceed creating more and unifiying others. Which, until we see how the election process plays out, is certainly a possibility, and I would argue, a reality.


Nice non-answer.

In case you missed it, the question was "How do you defeat an enemy without giving them reason to fight you?"

Perhaps you thought you were answering another question.  Clearly you didn't offer an answer to the question posed.  That's nice that you aren't suggesting it's entirely avoidable, but since you brought up the point, why not answer the question posed in relation to the point you made? 

In stating that you "would argue that it's a reality", you essentially have restated your original point.  Again, that's nice, but avoids answering the question while leaving that pile out there.  If you're going to throw it against the wall to see if it sticks, the nice thing to do when it doesn't is to clean up after yourself.

See, this is like the U.N. sitting on its hands and passing resolution after resolution after resolution (multiply that by 4 or more to get the picture) stating your conditions to Sadaam while not following through with any meaningful consequences.


How do you defeat an enemy without giving them reason to fight you? 
You’re always in control of your behavior. Sometimes you just control yourself
in ways that you later wish you hadn’t

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #67 on: February 04, 2005, 02:30:09 pm »
I for one, tend not to trust people that have already misled me. Call me crazy.
....12.3 gallon tank of gas for less than 28 dollars. I'm shelling almost 60 dollars a week out on gas, while getting almost 31 miles to the gallon. I don't even drive that much!

I realize this is off topic, but I couldn't resist.

$28.00 / 12.3 gallons = $2.28/g
$60.00 a week / 2.27/g =  26.3 g a week
26.3 galllons a week * 31 mpg =  815 miles per week * 52 = 42380 miles per year

Speaking of misleading...that's a lot of driving by anyones standards!
"I believe that every individual is naturally entitled to do as he pleases with himself and the fruits of his labor, so far as it in no way interferes with any other men's rights."
Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #68 on: February 04, 2005, 02:33:43 pm »
Maybe his gas tank leaks.

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #69 on: February 04, 2005, 02:50:11 pm »
I like the points you've expressed, but I did a little math, and I'm simply pointing out that many will disagree with this one point, and think you prone to hyperbole on the rest of your points...

. Because of her, I have not been able to fill my 12.3 gallon tank of gas for less than 28 dollars. I'm shelling almost 60 dollars a week out on gas, while getting almost 31 miles to the gallon. I don't even drive that much!

Almost 60/wk leads me to believe you are telling us you fill up twice a week. 

31 mpg x 12.3 tank = 360 miles (rounding and roughly for illustration)

360 miles x 2 fill ups = 720 miles.  720 miles x 52 weeks = over 30,000 miles per year, which is anything BUT not driving that much.


I know, it's nitpicking, but I know there are others here figuring it out just like I did, and putting a check in the box next to your name for "can't be trusted".


*edit* I see someone already DID figure it out, and a whole lot more precisely than my quick rounding-off math!  *edit*


I still agree with a lot of your points!


All of them misled the American people. Bill Clinton with his sex scandal, Kerry with half of his campaign, and Hilary, claiming she was going to help gas prices in New York, and yet tried her best to sway minds of certain political leaders to force a 30 cents a gallon tax rate on gasoline

Back on topic. To say that this election was a failure would be a mistake. The fact that they're finally able to have an election rather than a leader who was either put there as a puppet for another nation (and then became a militant totalitarian) or led because they killed the leader, is a step up for them.

Unbeknownst to you, there are many reasons they will point to when saying this is a mistake....just wait....they'll be happy to tell you about them, regardless of the validity of them  ;)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2005, 02:59:44 pm by DrewKaree »
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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #70 on: February 04, 2005, 03:03:09 pm »
I know, it's nitpicking, but I know there are others here figuring it out just like I did, and putting a check in the box next to your name for "can't be trusted".
My profile is set up to automatically check that box for everyone.

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #71 on: February 04, 2005, 04:17:19 pm »
How do you defeat an enemy without giving them reason to fight you? 


First you have to determine who the correct enemy is first. Up until now, we hadn't had any direct conflict with the Iraqi people, Baathists, and/or "Insurgents"...

So that's the first thing. Then, once you correctly determine who and where your enemy is *cough* Al Qaeda/Saudi Arabia *cough*...we can start talking tactics.

As I mentioned up-thread, I'm not naive enough to think you can fight an enemy without expecting them to fight back, nor am I against conflict in general. You're trying to get me to paint myself into a corner with a question that based on a red-herring to begin with.

I repeat, the goal is to defeat your enemy as quickly and as efficiently as possible, without creating more recruits and/or unifying numerous enemies against you in a common goal. Failure to do that has been the downfall of many a great empire.

...But instead, Bush threatens Iran while the purple ink is still wet on the fingers Iraqi citizens. Awesome!!



mrC

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #72 on: February 04, 2005, 04:26:33 pm »
I repeat, the goal is to defeat your enemy as quickly and as efficiently as possible, without creating more recruits and/or unifying numerous enemies against you in a common goal. Failure to do that has been the downfall of many a great empire.

It fails because it's not possible indefinitely.  The presence of a strong leadership position creates rebellion by its very nature.  That's just how humanity has worked throughout history. 

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #73 on: February 04, 2005, 04:47:23 pm »
The presence of a strong leadership position creates rebellion by its very nature.

So we live in a world of perpetual warfare? Bet that makes a great bedtime story for the kids.

Yeah, there is probably always going to be challenges to America's leadership role, my concern is sustaining the longevity of said leadership through strategic initiatives that do not undermine the very spirit that enabled our country to obtain the role in the first place.


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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #74 on: February 04, 2005, 04:57:00 pm »
So we live in a world of perpetual warfare? Bet that makes a great bedtime story for the kids.

Yes, we do, and history is replete with war after war after war.  Every day there is some conflict going on someplace.  This is a fact.  Humanity is violent.

Quote
Yeah, there is probably always going to be challenges to America's leadership role, my concern is sustaining the longevity of said leadership through strategic initiatives that do not undermine the very spirit that enabled our country to obtain the role in the first place.

This is my concern too... the US was not the singular global power until the period just after the USSR fell.  The world has evolved to a point where the US is no longer going to be the singular power and we're either going to accept that or we're going to fight to maintain it.  So far, we are fighting to maintain it, though it took an attack on US soil to provoke that mandate.  Are we going to conquer Iran next?  Are we going to invade North Korea?  What about China?  India?  We can't take them all even if we had moral justification.

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #75 on: February 04, 2005, 05:03:17 pm »
Quote
my concern is sustaining the longevity of said leadership through strategic initiatives that do not undermine the very spirit that enabled our country to obtain the role in the first place

Like Killin' injun's?
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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #76 on: February 04, 2005, 09:49:58 pm »

Cooter,
Man, what does this mean -
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Suppose that Native Americans boycotted the next elections in the US.

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #77 on: February 07, 2005, 01:51:27 am »
Beware, there be pontification below. I'm assuming that we've already shed the people who care less about politics. ;D

Quote
I've got a better idea for fredster, jbox.  I suggest he sits there and waits for you to tell him what you would do about the situation.

Well, that ploy didn't work, so in fairness here's my answer. I'm going to assume that I get to hold the tiller the entire way, instead of being expected simply to fix the jingoist wet dream currently in progress. Here's just a few things I'd love to be "king for a day" to do differently...

1. Take 1 day a week off, not 3.5 days (on average). Read books about the 'evil' governments and how they came into power.

2. Look at what imports the USA cannot live without. Promote work in those areas of research which *eliminate* that dependance in scalable ways. Give the finger to the rest of the world as the USA takes the lead in alternative power generation and conservation, vastly re-enforcing the greenback as foreign imports drop correspondingly. Admit there is such a thing as an environment, and that people should be worried about how they are treating it. Sigh with relief as the middle east ceases to become an economical burden, merely a political one.

3. Order a policy review of all big government contracts. Require an open tender process for all future contracts. Promote legislation that requires all elected officials and senior non-elected officials to provide public documentation describing all corporate ties (including a complete employment record) as well as an investment portfolio summary. This summary must also include anybody with whom they currently have an asset-sharing relationship of more than $1,000 per annum.

4. Stop making corporations stronger. Improve the environmental liability laws. Work with the UN to develop both environmental and human rights standard documentation that then become part of the WTO mandate on globalisation. Promote the removal of trade barriers as a conclusion of human equality, not some magic wand that will supposedly create it. As part of this process launch a public education campaign to teach people the difference between the *price* of something and the *cost* of something. And for goodness sake do something to make it clear that software and genetic patents are wrong.

5. Appreciate human falability, and that if God is truly beyond comprehension, than anyone who claims to know what God wants is obviously lying. Develop dialogues amongst recognised religious and civic leaders. Ask them to submit position papers debating the need for more or less religious motivation in government, including examples from history where those tactics did or did not improve the QoL of their citizens. Retain religous equality until such time as there is only one religion left in america.

9/11

6. Immediately fire those officials directly responsible for the break down in the chain of command from the first message to the final plane hitting. Anyone who needs 'protective custody' gets it, but here in america. No one is going anywhere until we know what the hell just happened.

7. Order all subordinates to participate fully with the investigation process. Don't screw over the investigation committee, refuse to go under oath, and then pretend the public *shouldn't* hold me responsible for this terrible event happening under my watch. Don't censor the report, since anyone who assisted on this attack against america is clearly not "with us".

8. Understand the social, political and economic reasons why this sort of thing happens. If the best excuse I can come up with is "bad guys hate good guys", resign. Don't pretend that the USA didn't train these sorts of bad guys in the first place.

Afganistan Invasion

9. GOLD STAR - half the world didn't even recognise these guys as a legitimate government.

10. Now stay there, with removing/reforming the remaining warlords a key priority of the administration. If democracy is the shining goal of all unavoidable hostilities, use the next four-eight years of reforming Afganistan into a 'western' civilisation to prove to the rest of the world who the 'good guy's really are. Don't start another war until (a) another major attack occurs, or (b) we finish up here; so that I don't have to hold portions of my own military as virtual slaves. Find out if there are places in the military budget that could be re-allocated more efficiently. Don't try to 'own' afganistan in return for your efforts.

Iraq Investigation

11. Immediately sack my so called 'advisors' who attempted to lie to me about Iraq. Flush the nest of those people who participated, including the head of any intelligence agency that forgot they are supposed to work for the public rather than the president. Immediately order another investigation on another huge failure, and order a new study to be released that actually include the "bad-fact" reports previously censured.

12. Apologise to the world at large for letting the lie get so far up my chain of command, and for repeating it to my country. Ask myself again if I am capable of this job.

13. Continue to work with the UN weapon's inspectors in Iraq. Continue to work with the Kurds towards formally creating their own nation. Use that process as the second opportunity to demonstrate to the world that self-governance is our over-riding goal.

14. Define a policy for providing guidance to the administration on what precisely defines a terrorist. Start getting serious against any government which matches that profile, eg. such as permanently cutting 1mil off their annual 'gift basket' each time they kill anyone not carrying a weapon. As an after thought order a review on any 'uncle sam friendly' operations and make sure to cancel any of those currently in violation of that policy as well. Stop transferring prisoners into other countries so they can be 'tortured-by-proxy'.

15. GOLD STAR - use the words "palestinian state" in public. Now do it more often, and lay down the gauntlet for other governments to do the same. Don't veto resolutions in the UN, then get righteous when other members do the same. Use this process as the third opportunity to develop democracies around the world.


So, fire away. And yes, Saddam is (probably) still in power of the Shi'ites. But with three democracies now under her belt I think the odds will be marginally better that more of the global community will pitch in as the USA continues to 'upgrade' each non-democratic country. Most likely, since they went into revolt once before in response to the USA promising to help, if the USA actually started *keeping* that promise, who knows how quickly more populations in the middle east would actually help liberate themselves once word got around that true independance was back on the menu...

And GOLD STAR for getting any number of people to show up for an election in that kind of climate. However, I don't believe it's a good idea to have a yes/no referendum, and would rather see a condorcet style ballot. Our beloved government in OZ managed to scuttle a republic referendum by making it yes/no choice. And my personal opinion is that if they want to split that country into three smaller ones, let them.
Done. SLATFATF.

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #78 on: February 07, 2005, 11:52:56 pm »
5-  Ban religion.  It's about time people start having faith in themselves and each other.

12- Figure out why the misinformation made it as far as it did.

14- Add: "Stop trying to find ways to be what we are supposed to be fighting against." ie: Not applying "self evident" rights to "detainees" (since they are not PoW's or prisoners and we don't have them on US soil. ::))  IMO, anyone that looks for ways to sidestep the Geneva Conventions should be imprisoned.

Looks like we agree on most of the rest.

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Re: Iraq Elections
« Reply #79 on: February 08, 2005, 03:11:53 am »
Quote
5-  Ban religion.  It's about time people start having faith in themselves and each other.

Quote
including examples from history where those tactics did or did not improve the QoL of their citizens.

Banning religion always goes badly. Bear in mind the overwhelming majority of people in the world think *something* fishy is going on, they just have nothing to prove what it is. Regardless of the cost in felines, we must encourage the motivation for exploration.

I personally believe that one day some form of uncountable sequence theory stuff will get good enough to actually prove you can have "turtles all the way down", but until that point I think it's a good idea to let people be free to believe whatever they want so long as it is a constructive belief.

My beef with organised religion is when certain individuals exploit people's fear and loneliness to isolate and control them, instead of trying to help those people to take control of themselves and explore the world around them. When "WWJD" becomes a battle cry instead of a metric.

A buddhist women dies one day and is very surprised to find herself at the pearly gates. St Peter walks over and gives her a big hug, welcoming her to heaven. As they chat he leads her around, introducing her to where the various groups of people mingle around. She waves to her fellow buddhists, shakes hands with some jews, and shares tea with some muslims. However, suddenly they come to this *massive* wall which spreads as far in every direction as the eye can see.
'Shhhh....' St Peter instructs her.
'Why?' she whispers quietly.
'Behind this wall are the Christians, they think they're the only ones up here.'
Done. SLATFATF.