We're only as good as our money

[danny_galaga]

remeber ,your countries goverment does things everyday that you think only other goverments would do..

hey, cool saying  that applies quite well to the australian government  (cop emoticon used for authorative effect)

[DrewKaree]

Chad, doing a bit of noodling around the internet today....this probably sums it up for you pretty well, I'd bet

- the "myopic zeal" to see/use the moment for political advancement/advantage - pretty good assessment, I'd say



*searches for another dead horse to beat*

[danny_galaga]

Chad, doing a bit of noodling around the internet today....this probably sums it up for you pretty well, I'd bet

- the "myopic zeal" to see/use the moment for political advancement/advantage - pretty good assessment, I'd say



*searches for another dead horse to beat*

i didn't know beck was as politically adept as he is musically!

'two turntables and a microphone...'

[patrickl]

Chad, doing a bit of noodling around the internet today....this probably sums it up for you pretty well, I'd bet

- the "myopic zeal" to see/use the moment for political advancement/advantage - pretty good assessment, I'd say

OK, I'll bite on your heart breaking story.

Why does he claim the US contribution dwarfes the ones of the others? Lets rephrase that into a simple question. Which people are more charitable?:
- $3.50 per person ("current" Norwegian government pledge)
- $1.19 per person (current US government pledge)

In fact the Norwegians were contemplating pledging $180 million a few days ago. I'm not sure if they did already, but that would make it a whopping $39.50 per citizen (that could be compared to the US government pledging $12 billion).

OK another question. How much did the rich countries (US, Europe, Japan etc) actually pledge when Egeland complained he needed more money? (lemme give a hint: it's either $15 million or $35 million for the US, but I'm not sure of the timing)

Another easy one then. Is $350 million (current US government pledge) the same as $15 or $35 million (the US government pledge at the time Egeland made his request for more money)? Ok I'll answer that one, "No it's not".

So why does Beck mention the $350 million? That question is a bit harder though. It's hard to choose between "He's actually that dumb/uninformed" or "He is blatantly lying to prove his point".

Fact is that at the time when Egeland cried out he needed more money there was far too little money pledged. I severely doubt he would make the same claim now (with pledges up to $4 billion).

I do agree that it's nice the US is contributing even to people oppose to them going to war. However, unlike mr Beck I don't think that political differences are really a reason to just let the people suffer.

[DrewKaree]

i didn't know beck was as politically adept as he is musically!

'two turntables and a microphone...'

I think the proper terminology is "wiggety wiggety wack"

Being Tragically Hip myself, I feel it's my duty to keep alive as many old skool phrases as possible.  Who knows, someday I may be anointed as a fresh DJ or something.

I like his business slogan - "I'm pro smokestack"  It just kills me!

[DrewKaree]

OK, I'll bite on your heart breaking story.

It wasn't intended for you, but rather for Chad Tower, perhaps to better flesh out his position, hence the first few words of the post.  I'm glad you were able to read it, though sorry that you seemed unable to comprehend it.

Why does he claim the US contribution dwarfes the ones of the others?

Because they do.  Simple math shouldn't be something that eludes you, yet it seems you've lost the ability to add and subtract the numbers.  It's why there's a need to educate you here, since your own "myopic zeal" (I love that phrase - it's so fitting  ) requires you to find a way to label the U.S. aid as lackluster.

US government pledge

I'll have to ask you to define at every step what exactly you are referring to when attempting to downplay the U.S. and its contributions to the effort.  Being an American, I lump each American's contribution in - be it personal, corporate, or governmental.  If it serves your purpose, by all means pick and choose which part of American generosity you'd like to use.  I'd like to think an educated standpoint might be able to fathom that American giving is American giving, but I understand the requirement to separate the facts and numbers and use whichever one fits your position at that time when attempting to delegitimize my country and its citizens' actions.  You'll have to pardon me for utilizing your tactics myself.  I figure if you follow your backwards logic the other way, you'll end up getting it right eventually.

In fact the Norwegians were contemplating pledging $180 million a few days ago.

That's a nice sentiment.  Please be sure to add it to the thread when they make up their mind.  Also, thank you for giving us the hint about the giving -after- Egeland's statement was made.  It helped clear up Norway's following of our lead for me (and also how you presumably view thier belated effort) quite nicely.

that could be compared to the US government pledging $12 billion

I'll be sure to let my local representative know that we can stop our aid payments for this year and simply send our yearly amount to the tidal wave effort so it compares equally for you.  Please do likewise and let your local representatives know that they will probably soon be called upon by those countries we no longer give aid to, and be sure to let him know that you want to do your part in those efforts too.  Who knows, maybe you can even start a fundraiser or something to get the message out.  I'm guessing your countrymen, like yourself, are completely oblivious to the aid the U.S. sends worldwide each and every year, so I'm giving you this opportunity to get in on the ground floor of this stellar operation!

How much did the rich countries (US, Europe, Japan etc) actually pledge when Egeland complained he needed more money?

I notice you forgot to mention Norway's belated efforts too, but not to worry, I like to help you when I can.  In case you missed it, I put it a couple of sentences above here.

Another easy one then. Is $350 million (current US government pledge) the same as $15 or $35 million (the US government pledge at the time Egeland made his request for more money)? Ok I'll answer that one, "No it's not".

See, here I was thinking simple basic math concepts eluded you, but down HERE you show you can comprehend them somewhat.  Must be selective math reasoning.  I'll try to help you out whenever math questions are posed in the future, mmmkay?

So why does Beck mention the $350 million?

Not to try to pry too much, but do they have RIF (Reading Is Fundamental) programs for you to get into?  It always seemed to defy logic when you were missing things, but I think it's just a reading comprehension issue.

To help you yet again, I'm enclosing a picture of the author's name at the top of the story.  I know, it seems as if you had trouble with the rest of the story too, so that one shouldn't surprise me, but call me kooky....I figured reading the author's name wasn't a tough one.

I do agree that it's nice the US is contributing even to people oppose to them going to war. However, unlike mr Beck I don't think that political differences are really a reason to just let the people suffer.

To steal a line of yours - that's odd reasoning.  You viewed this as "mr Beck" thinking we should be "letting the people suffer due to political differences"?  It seemed to me, and probably 99% of the readers that this story was about Egeland and his use of this tragedy for political gain, but it was probably kind of hard to ascertain...sorry.....figure out.....from the subheading of the article Mr Kerry wrote - "How a little known UN bureaucrat turned Humanitarian Giving into a Contest". 

I'll try to get more stories with pictures if I know you'll be looking at them

[Dartful Dodger]

DrewKaree if you don't know by now people in other countries don't care how much we give, it will always be too little.  Remeber Bush won and the rest of the world is pist that we will still living in the greatest country.

Patrickl lives in a country that's the size of one our 50 states.  It doesn't have catastrophic hurricanes, earth quakes, or flash floods. He also knows that when his country has a real problem, like another Hitler, his people will give in without a fight, and then he'll just sit back and wait for the USA to rescue them.

[Gunstar Hero]

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn!!! 

[patrickl]

Let me just try to explain once more. Egeland said to ALL rich nations that he expected more money from them quickly to help the victims. They needed money quickly to prevent further loss of live. That's really all he said. He had a very good point at the time and I don't see a reason to get so worked up about it.

Obviously many countries/people listened or donated on their own.

The idea that giving is a contest is not Egeland's point. I'd say that idea is more brought forward  by the people who took offence to the "we need more money question" by claiming "we" (the US) gives the most already and that even the most is not good enough.

If you put things in perspective you see a different picture and indeed it is surprising that the US contribution is still rather low, but I cannot imagine that it will stay at that level. Powell is a good guy (it's really sad that he's leaving) and he won't let this one slide. So it might very well be that the US will up its pledges to a couple of billion dollars too.

CNN gives an overview of money pledged so far:

Region	Government	Private	Total
Europe	2.038,96	994,96	3.033,92
Asia	1.406,50		1.406,50
Oceania	818,60	106,00	924,60
US	350,00	324,00	674,00
World Bank	250,00		250,00
Middle East	91,00	101,13	192,13
Americas (excl US)	82,00	76,00	158,00
Eastern Europe	1,99	6,35	8,34
Africa	0,75		0,75
Total	5.039,80	1.608,44	6.648,24

I'm especially impressed by Australia and Norway. It seems Norway indeed went for the $180 million pledge (up from the initial $16 million). Australia pledged close to $1 billion (with 20 million citizens, that's almost $50 per person ... WOW)!

BTW Norway is country in Europe

[patrickl]

Patrickl lives in a country that's the size of one our 50 states.

[Gunstar Hero]

I'm digging how the US (one country) is being compared to REGIONS of the planet.

Damn we got it goin' on. 

Seriously though, say what you will. I'm sure if we didn't have this f'd up Iraq situation to deal with we'd be even more there, but hey, it is what it is.

America haters rejoice. We'll always give you more to hate on us for. It's just how we are.

[Dartful Dodger]

The idea that giving is a contest is not Egeland's point. I'd say that idea is more brought forward

[DrewKaree]

Patrickl lives in a country that's the size of one our 50 states.  It doesn't have catastrophic hurricanes, earth quakes, or flash floods.

You forgot mudslides and tornadoes.

I'm just trying to help him out, as RIF and adding and subtracting seems to be out of his grasp thus far.

[Dartful Dodger]

You forgot mudslides and tornadoes.

I'm just trying to help him out, as RIF and adding and subtracting seems to be out of his grasp thus far.

I left out tornadoes because it's been over 6 months since anyone was killed in the US by one.  I figure the rest of the world has a 6 month memory.  The USA on the other hand does not forget... or at least the majority by 3 over million.

Speaking of forgetting, you've had the same icon for a month now.

[Jabba]

Hey, WTF!!! Everyone gives as he/she feels. It does not matter how much each country gives/gave. What counts is the money gets to the people who need it now before more death occurs! From what I hear, there is now tooo much money and there will be huge waste in delivery of services that are no longer required.  Hell, Canada took almost three weeks to get our DART team over there. Now they are standing around figuring out what to do! Go figures!

[mr.Curmudgeon]

The next person that tells me "WE SHOULDN'T INVADE OTHER COUNTRIES FOR THEIR OIL" is going to get punched in the head.  IF WE INVADED FOR OIL, WHY THE *EFF* DIDN'T WE TAKE ANY?!

WE SHOULDN'T INVADE OTHER COUNTRIES FOR THEIR OIL, THEN *NOT* TAKE ANY.

IF WE INVADED FOR OIL, WHY THE *EFF* DIDN'T WE TAKE ANY?!

You really gullible enough to think we *won't*?  We haven't even secured the "Green Zone", how the hell do you suppose we'd truck out buttloads of oil? Also, if  not for oil, exactly *WHY* did we invade Iraq? WMD? How's that excuse workin' out for you?

I hate living in MA most of the time.  Moron liberals who couldn't justify views they don't even understand and have never bothered to think through to a conclusion.  FULL OF THEM.

 

I LOVE that you live in MA. That means all that wingnut rage is wasted...
Welcome, though. I'm just north of Boston myself.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

BTW,

Chad, I have to wonder, since you seem so upset about unjustly spent U.S. tax payer money, how do you feel about "Payolagate"? (The Bush Administration paying a conservative radio personality $250,000 in U.S. tax dollars to pump false NCLB propoganda over the airwaves)

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Uh, when does anyone EVER say thank you for the billions and billions of OUR DOLLARS we send around the world?

When does anyone EVER do anything out of the kindness of their heart, rather than to reap praise & rewards?

[SOAPboy]

Where is that? I live in a small community in TN.  There are 6 or 7 Schools. They have books and computers and they are clean and well managed. The mean income out here is below the national average.  Where are these schools and why don't they have the funding? 

My Parents live in a town where the cheapest house is 300,000

The schools there dont have enough money for Computers, so they dropped the class..

Amazing if you think about it..


And ive been to schools all over the US.. and not everyone had "nice" schools..
Its the Small town schools that had the nice gear.. the 5 million $ computer labs.. In fact, my high school where i graduated.. 7 million dollar computer lab, that was getting another 2 million for new computers.. a few million for a gym.. i THINK the football field was a 2 mill project.. hell, they even have REAL MARBLE steps for all the enterences..

mind you this is a school for a town that has a few thousand people

yet, in vegas, my middle schools, elementary schools, ect.. didnt have anything NEAR that.. no computers, if there were, they were crap and always broken.. crappy gyms, cracked cement steps..

sigh..

[DrewKaree]

Speaking of forgetting, you've had the same icon for a month now.

Sorry.  You hadn't commented, so I forgot to change it.  You like the new one?

It's what I think a lot of people do after reading patrick's post - sheer disbelief at his rationalization is sure to imprint a "qwerty" on many a forehead 

[danny_galaga]

i LIKE american money (",). it's so easy to colour copy and pass off in crowded shops 

just to mix it up a little...

[shmokes]

The USA on the other hand does not forget... or at least the majority by 3 over million.

You know what's really crazy?  How quickly NEW YORK forgets.  82% of Manhattan completely forgot about terrorism when they went to the polls.  That makes sense, though, really.  I mean, what do New Yorkers have to fear when it comes to terrorism? 

I'll tell you who DIDN'T forget....  Utah....Wyoming.....Nebraska....Montana.....Kansas....Alabama....Mississippi....  You know...the people who REALLY get terrorism.  They understand how dangerous terrorists are.  New Yorkers are just a bunch of whiny liberals who like to sit around talking about terrorism, but have no real experience with it.  They can hardly be blamed for their short memories.

You're a riot Dartful.  I think this stuff really gets you off.  "THE USA DOES NOT FORGET"  "BUSH WON SO I GET TO KEEP MY GUN" (my favorite...it almost rhymes even)  God...now that I type it, though, I'm kinda seeing ya.  I feel all warm and fuzzy now.  Give me some more fluffy things to say.  That was nice.

[patrickl]

Why does he claim the US contribution dwarfes the ones of the others? Lets rephrase that into a simple question. Which people are more charitable?:
- $3.50 per person ("current" Norwegian government pledge)
- $1.19 per person (current US government pledge)

It was your point.

You quote something where I corrected a false statement in an article quoted by someone else and then I started the whole thing? You do understand that the post I reacted to started the point don't you? I merely responded to the false claims given in that article. Blame Drew if you don't want to see stats.

Funny that you should mention "another Hitler" as our biggest worry.

Funnier still is I didn't mention "another Hitler" as your biggest worry.
I mentioned you have no worries, because the USA will rescue you.

Whatever way you put it, we indeed worry about "another Hitler", but with this one the US government is unlikely to help.

If it's okay with patrickl and the rest of the world the US government will now be using some of it's resources to take care of the victims of the flash floods and mudslides that have just struck in California.

[patrickl]

It's what I think a lot of people do after reading patrick's post - sheer disbelief at his rationalization is sure to imprint a "qwerty" on many a forehead

[patrickl]

I'm digging how the US (one country) is being compared to REGIONS of the planet.

Damn we got it goin' on.

[RacerX]

When does anyone EVER do anything out of the kindness of their heart, rather than to reap praise & rewards?

Actually, a lot of people do.  But you'll never hear about it precisely *because* they don't want any praise or rewards.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Actually, a lot of people do.  But you'll never hear about it precisely *because* they don't want any praise or rewards.

I agree. I prefer those people over those with the seemingly materialistic, egotistical, "I helped you so bow before me" mentality put forth in ChadTowers original post.

It seems a lot of whining is coming from the right side of the constituency in the U.S. and I find it appalling. The world came to our aid and offered united support after we lost 3000 people in the  9-11 attacks, and we pissed that unity away by thumbing our noses at them by invading *IRAQ* (a country which had *NOTHING* to do with the attacks) and now these very same people expect the rest of the world to get weak-kneed with the vapors at our enormous generosity w/ Tsunami aid. They seem to forget that immediately after the disaster, Bush only pledged $15 million for the entire effort. Compare that to $12 billion Bush handed out during the Florida hurricane relief effort and you can see why people may have seen us as stingy.

This current administration doesn't seem to care what the rest of the world thinks, and usually the Righties seem to lavish this behavior...why are they so up-in-arms about an assumed lack of respect? Is it only about the money?

[fredster]

Is it only about the money?

Mostly.

[Dartful Dodger]

Bush only pledged $15 million for the entire effort. Compare that to $12 billion Bush handed out during the Florida hurricane relief effort and you can see why people may have seen us as stingy.

If Bush spent more money on helping the people who sell their children into slavery and less on the people of Florida he could have won the election.

..oh wait, he did win.

Good times!

[danny_galaga]

Patrickl lives in a country that's the size of one our 50 states.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

If Bush spent more money on helping the people who sell their children into slavery and less on the people of Florida he could have won the election.

..oh wait, he did win.

If Bush spent more money on helping to up-armor our troops and less on celebrating *himself* ($40 million for inauguration) he could have saved some more troops from dying and helped support his war.

Oh wait, he didn't. Because he doesn't care.


mrC

[patrickl]

I usually just shrug when people misrepresent WWII facts, but it probably is a good idea to set the record straight yes:
- The US didn't win WWII, the Allies did. Of course the US was a part of the Allies, but not the whole (US stands for something like 33% including action in the pacific region)
- The US join WWII last and only because Japan attacked and Germany/Italy declared war on them
- The US Joining WWII is not a favor to the europeans
- If the Allies had not won WWII not just europe, but the US as well would be speaking german (or perhaps Japanese, but surely not english).
- WWII was 60 years ago. If people feel they need to go so far back for something good their country did ...

To complete the history lesson, at the start of WWII the Netherlands was a neutral country (like Switzerland) and Germany stated that our neutrality would be respected. Dumb idea perhaps, but it worked for the Dutch through the first war. This time our location was strategically important so we were attacked. The Dutch surrendered after the Germans completely flattened Rotterdam and threatened to do the same to the Hague, Amsterdam and Utrecht. 3% of the dutch population died during WWII.

[Dartful Dodger]

I usually just shrug when people misrepresent Iraq facts, but it probably is a good idea to set the record straight yes:
- The US didn't go to war with Iraq alone, the Allies did. Of course the US was a part of the Allies.
- The US joined Iraq first only because the USA was attacked
- The Allies Joining Iraq is not a favor to the USA
- If the USA does not win Iraq not just USA, but the world will would be speaking Muslim.
- Iraq isn't over. If people feel they need to make assumptions about the future to feel better about their country doing nothing ...

To complete the current events lesson, at the start of Iraq the Netherlands was a neutral country and Saddam stated their neutrality would be respected. Dumb idea perhaps, but it didn't work in WWII but they feel it was 60 years ago, so they believe there will be a different out come this time.

[GGKoul]

I usually just shrug when people misrepresent Iraq facts, but it probably is a good idea to set the record straight yes:
- The US didn't go to war with Iraq alone, the Allies did. Of course the US was a part of the Allies.
- The US joined Iraq first only because the USA was attacked
- The Allies Joining Iraq is not a favor to the USA
- If the USA does not win Iraq not just USA, but the world will would be speaking Muslim.
- Iraq isn't over. If people feel they need to make assumptions about the future to feel better about their country doing nothing ...

Sorry, but IRAQ never attacked the USA or any embassies.

[patrickl]

The scary part is that dartful actually thinks he has a point. Nice attempt at some humour though.

[danny_galaga]

- The US joined Iraq first only because the USA was attacked

huh?

[danny_galaga]

.

[shmokes]

I don't get it Danny....those look like the exact same picture.

Kerry lost so the country will go bust (...sorry, Dartful inspired me to try my hand at making clever near-rhymes).

[mr.Curmudgeon]

(...sorry, Dartful inspired me to try my hand at making clever near-rhymes).

Then how about, "Bush Won. Armageddon's begun."

[iwillfearnoevil]

Yes, but the US doesn't just give away the money.