Lasers,planes and high school geometry.

[DYNAGOD]

Am i the only one here for whom these laser stories just dont jive?
Theres some very fundamental facts here that just dont addup..

for one, to have a laser capable of striking a 24" by 24" area target moving 400mph and flooding a compartment with laser radiation sufficent enough to burn someones retina at 3000+ ft high and 3-15 miles out would require some pretty hefty power consumption..certainly something the electric company would be able to track unless they trickle fed a huge bank of capacitors slowly over time.

The pilots also reported that the beam tracked the plane, and more interestingly tracked the window of the plane... 
it would take access to some pretty sophisticated hardware/software and processing power to pull such a feat off.first you need access to the local radar net, then triangulate several different radar images of a plane in real time and be able to track it...This begs the question who has access to the radar net?
 secondly , the culprit would have had to design a numerical controlled gimbal that can translate triangulated Radar image data to zyz movement for the laser.
to further compound this is the fact that it tracked a TINY 24 inch by 24 inch square of window at 400+mph on this plane that is 3000+feet up and 3-15 miles out ...   COME ON!
now i dont know if any of you hav ever seen an airplane ,but the windows are on the TOP of the plane!! a pilot cannot even see the ground except for 3 or so miles out.. so this thing woudl have had to of been a considerable lateral distance as well.
i find it highly unlikely that any joe blow, or hassad blow could have the resources required to pull of such a stunt.
the only people who have the resources to pull such a stunt off are the military.

[Sephroth57]

umm... what are you talking about? 

[abrannan]

1. The laser used has a range of 9000ft (http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/tools/5a47/)
2. The laser is 50x brighter than your average red laser cat toy.
2a. From a related Slashdot story (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/12/28/1853253&) you could buy a similar laser that is more than 20x more powerful than the green laser and it'll use just over 100mW.  Not enough for the power company to even notice.
3. The Cessna Citation has a wraparound windshield, increasing the number of angles a laser could come from
4. The plane was in it's descent, meaning it probably wasn't going 400+mph, but probably still moving over 100mph
5. Being in descent means it's nose was down, further increasing the visibilty to the windshield
6. If the laser was shone from near head on, it's not that hard to track an object moving 100-200mph, especially if that object is only a little more than 1/2 mile up.
7. It wasn't a sustained shine, it was 3-4 "sweeps", which for a laser that bright are certainly enough to cause some pretty intense spots in your eyes, which would qualify as "temporary blindness" in aviation terms.  The retinas weren't permanently burned.

So yeah, the facts seem to jibe for me.  It's still a damn fool thing to use Patriot Act provisions on, though.

[abrannan]

umm... what are you talking about? 

This:
http://1010wins.com/topstories/local_story_004121148.html

[menace]

boy its a good thing that patriot act was written--otherwise guys goofing around with kids in their yeard would run amok   For once I totally agree with the lawyer--shouldn't the FBI be catching real terrorists and not stupid locals?  I believe the justice system has failed yet another person.

[Shape D.]

I understand charging the guy with something, but 25 years in prison and  a $500,000 fine seems a bit overboard for the penalties he's facing.

[DYNAGOD]

1. The laser used has a range of 9000ft (http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/tools/5a47/)
2. The laser is 50x brighter than your average red laser cat toy.
2a. From a related Slashdot story (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/12/28/1853253&) you could buy a similar laser that is more than 20x more powerful than the green laser and it'll use just over 100mW.  Not enough for the power company to even notice.
3. The Cessna Citation has a wraparound windshield, increasing the number of angles a laser could come from
4. The plane was in it's descent, meaning it probably wasn't going 400+mph, but probably still moving over 100mph
5. Being in descent means it's nose was down, further increasing the visibilty to the windshield
6. If the laser was shone from near head on, it's not that hard to track an object moving 100-200mph, especially if that object is only a little more than 1/2 mile up.
7. It wasn't a sustained shine, it was 3-4 "sweeps", which for a laser that bright are certainly enough to cause some pretty intense spots in your eyes, which would qualify as "temporary blindness" in aviation terms.  The retinas weren't permanently burned.

So yeah, the facts seem to jibe for me.  It's still a damn fool thing to use Patriot Act provisions on, though.

the initial news story consisted of a sutained high powered beam enveloping  the entire inside of the cockpit and tracking the plane as it went..
yes,the more recent ,watered down versions , indeed follow the pattern you describe above..
its the initial story that got me..and how it suddenly changed, probobly when the first intelligent individual read it and saw how preposterous it was..

and indeed ,throwing the patriot act at some father out playing with his kid on the front lawn with a laser pointer is ridicuous..
its a waste of a perfectly good jail cell that should be the home of some child molester not a laser pointer felon..

[Santoro]

One time I tried to aim my pen laser at a house about 1/4 mile away and it took some effort to aim.  (Imagine trying to touch something with a 1/4 mile long stick. the slightest movement of your hand would result in wild swings at the other end.)

I don't buy that a person could keep a laser on a moving plane without a sophisticated tracking mechanism.

(And I am not really a conspiracy theory nut either.)

[abrannan]

the initial news story consisted of a sutained high powered beam enveloping  the entire inside of the cockpit and tracking the plane as it went..
yes,the more recent ,watered down versions , indeed follow the pattern you describe above..

That's why I never trust the initial stories.  The initial stories for 9/11 described 10,000+ casualties.  The initial stories for the DC Sniper talked about the rifle being a .22 caliber.  The inital stories for the Atlanta Olympic bombing talked about 20 or more people dead.  In the rush to be the first with the scoop, news outlets don't care too much about accuracy. 

[DrewKaree]

boy its a good thing that patriot act was written--otherwise guys goofing around with kids in their yeard would run amok

Has anyone ever gone into their local pet store and bought one of those "laser cat toy" things? 

How about - has anyone ever taken apart a DVD player or CD-ROM in their PC?

I suggest you do two things before stating such ludicrous things as "this is a foolish use of the patriot act".

• Go read the packaging on the "cat toy"
• Read the manual or the warnings on the CD

See the "do not shine directly in eyes - may cause damage" thing, in case you can't be "troubled"?   

Now, not knowing what he was using, but we are all capable of reasonably assuming that it's AT LEAST a laser cat toy...anyone here think that this COULD cause damage raise your hands

*looks around to see the "wasteful patirot act* group shuffling their feet*

Let's continue, shall we? 

Let's say the pilot, (they did say temporarily blinded) became PERMANENTLY blinded...on LANDING, as they say it happened.  Anyone see any problems yet?  Pilot blinded...plane landing...anyone, anyone?

Pilot, now blinded, crashes plane, killing everyone in the plane.  Before crashing, they figure out it's because of the laser.  ANYONE now think this is some minor problem of "some guy playing around with his kid in the backyard" NOW?

Lastly, this is my strongly held opinion, hence the coming harsh words.  Anyone thinking this is ok to demonstrate to your kids that warnings on items such as the laser used and that it's "harmless" is AN IDIOT. 

If this dad was in the backyard teaching his kid it's ok to take your gun and shoot up in the air without thinking of the consequences, and accidentally shot the pilot, but not fatally, THE OUTRAGE WOULD BE IN THE PAPER EACH AND EVERY DAY UNTIL THEY FOUND THE GUY AND PUT HIM IN JAIL, WITH THE RESULTING WEEKS ON END DEBATE ABOUT CHILDREN AND FIREARMS. 

To say this was some guy goofing around with his kids in the backyard is irresponsibly dismissing the possibilities of his actions just because they didn't come to fruition

If this guy had caused the deaths of each person on that plane, I'd bet dollars to donuts that NONE - NOT A SINGLE ONE OF YOU - would be looking at this as foolishly using the patriot act. 

[Gunstar Hero]

LOL.

That is the stupidest story I have ever read.

People need to be put to sleep. 

[Harry Potter]

What next?

[abrannan]

boy its a good thing that patriot act was written--otherwise guys goofing around with kids in their yeard would run amok

If this guy had caused the deaths of each person on that plane, I'd bet dollars to donuts that NONE - NOT A SINGLE ONE OF YOU - would be looking at this as foolishly using the patriot act. 

Not me, it was not terrorist intent.  He's being brought up on charges of terrorism.  Even if he caused the death of all 8 people on the plane, and let be generous and say the plane crashed into a bus filled with 50 nuns and orphans (and little puppies), I still would not support the use of terrorism charges against this individual.  58 counts of involuntary manslaughter, along with a slew of other minor charges related to the misuse of a Class 3 laser device?  Absolutely.  But not charges of terrorism.

Plus, even you have to admit that 25 years and $500,000 is a hell of a punishment for "interfering with the operator of a mass transportation vehicle".  This is a clear misuse of the provisions of the Patriot Act considering the intent of the actions.

[locash]

If this guy had caused the deaths of each person on that plane, I'd bet dollars to donuts that NONE - NOT A SINGLE ONE OF YOU - would be looking at this as foolishly using the patriot act. 

I would...criminal acts like this are not terrorism. 

[Dexter]

If this guy had caused the deaths of each person on that plane, I'd bet dollars to donuts that NONE - NOT A SINGLE ONE OF YOU - would be looking at this as foolishly using the patriot act.

[Dartful Dodger]

Just as predicted, the Patriot act is abused. Surprise surprise

[abrannan]

...enjoy the next four years in Camelot.

/mutters "it's only a model"

[Dexter]

I'll make a stab in the dark prediction too, some terrorist with enough money is going to hire enough lawyers to find a loop hole in the Patriot act, and eventual a newer law that deals with this is going to be created.

Like the 'terrorists' held in gitmo? You're assuming that they will get a trial in the first place, and why shold that happen when theres a chance they may be found to be innocent (can't let that happen). And don't forget that the use of the cuban base in the first place is a 'loophole' to the geneva convention, being used by the 'good guys'. You know someones taking a dump on your justice system when the government have to use the loopholes. Pathetic LOL!!

[lucindrea]

Has anyone ever gone into their local pet store and bought one of those "laser cat toy" things? 


See the "do not shine directly in eyes - may cause damage" thing, in case you can't be "troubled"?

and think of the damge that can be done to a cats eye , you know , those things in their heads that are 20X more sentive to light than a humans .. i cant stand those things , ya cats go nutz , probly cauz it hurts them.

[abrannan]

Has anyone ever gone into their local pet store and bought one of those "laser cat toy" things? 


See the "do not shine directly in eyes - may cause damage" thing, in case you can't be "troubled"?

and think of the damge that can be done to a cats eye , you know , those things in their heads that are 20X more sentive to light than a humans .. i cant stand those things , ya cats go nutz , probly cauz it hurts them.

Cats are red color blind, and have entirely different structure to their eyes (well, not *entirely*, but enough to make a diffference).  The reflective layer at the back of the eye actually serves to protect their retina from the laser. 

[fredster]

I believe at first they (the authorities) didn't know what to make of it.  I think some of the people were trying to actually cause a crash from remote control.  They probably had some intel.

Now we have a bunch of kids who saw it on TV and the whole thing is getting out of hand.  Everybody is doing it.

[Mameotron]

One time I tried to aim my pen laser at a house about 1/4 mile away and it took some effort to aim.

[danny_galaga]

I believe at first they (the authorities) didn't know what to make of it.

[DYNAGOD]

a couple hours at west side customs and we can all these planes equipped with a nice tint job standard 

[stevejt]

I can't beleive that there is any possibility of someone with a portable laser pen in their hand tracking a cockpit window of a moving plane at any distance.  Also don't beleive that at that distance that laser would cause any problems with sight.  I have had a standard red pointer shined in my eye from a few feet away before, and I know I am not the only one.  Can cause blindness does not mean will, and does not mean CAN in a few seconds.  Cigarettes CAN cause cancer, that is well known.  BUt it takes 15 years of exposure, not 3 seconds.  Anyone think the pilot might be EXAGGERATING ALOT!  Or maybe just plain lying?  The light was bright enough to damage his eye, but the co pilot didn't see anything?  It didn't hurt at the time at all, but he thinks THAT caused his eye being blood shot the next day?  ANyone ever look at the sun???  That will only cause "spot blindness" only lasts for a few seconds, and it pretty much hurts to look at it.   I think there might be a little exaggerating here...

Steve

[abrannan]

You want your pilot to suffer spot blindness during landing?  And the laser used is 50x brighter than that red laser cat toy. 

[Crazy Cooter]

This story is a complete crock of BS.  There is NO WAY a  laser powwered by two AAA batteries blinded both the pilot & copilot like the story says.  Here's why (Dude's lawyer take notes):

1- Beam dispersion.  A laser beam doesn't "hold it's shape" over distances.  A beam shine projects itself as a cone, with the intensity of the original beam decreasing relative to the distance to the target because the beam is spread over a larger area.  Any basic optics book will allow you to figure it out.  (most laser projectors have the info on a sticker on the side)

2- A plane isn't pointed downward on decent.  Unless it's coming down real fast.  Rather it slows and keeps it's nose upward slightly.  This varies depending on the plane.  Search for "stall speed" to see what I mean.

3- At 3000' in the air, the chances of hitting the plane with enough intensity to do anything is zero.  Nada.  Zip.

FYI (ripped from the net): "Class IIIa lasers are continuous wave, intermediate power (1-5 mW) devices. Some examples of Class IIIa laser uses are the same as Class II lasers with the most popular uses being laser pointers and laser scanners. Direct viewing of the Class IIIa laser beam could be hazardous to the eyes. Do not view the Class IIIa laser beam directly. Do not point a Class IIIa laser beam into another persons eyes. Do not view a Class IIIa laser beam with telescopic devices; this amplifies the problem."

I don't see nuttin about blinding multiple people in a single bound.  If the device WILL cause eye problems, it must be labeled Class IIIb (or higher).


As far as using the "Patriot" Act... everyone knows how I feel about that.  This whole thing should be tossed out.  It's like of searching without a warrant.  "Well, we were stomping on all these civil liberty things looking for terrorists and all we found was you... so now you're going to pay."  At least a search warrant states what they're looking for...  This is just judicial phishing.

[danny_galaga]

2- A plane isn't pointed downward on decent.

[Crazy Cooter]

But wouldn't the nose of a cessna still block most of the beam?  It's still pointing upward overall.  When you land, you use a slower speed to decend, if you actually point the nose down, you'll hit too hard and bounce (or worse).

[stevejt]

This story is a complete crock of BS.  There is NO WAY a  laser powwered by two AAA batteries blinded both the pilot & copilot like the story says.

Thats what I was trying to say without calling the pilots liars..lol

And the laser used is 50x brighter than that red laser cat toy. 

Okay, 50x brighter, but ALSO 500x further away!!!!!!!!!!  The ad for the MOST power pen laser says at 200' the beam is spread from 2mm to 2FEET.  Lets see, thats 30x spread so only 1/30 as bright.  Assuming there is ZERO dimming from fog, clouds and atmospheric distortion. (The change in air temp from ground lever to the height of the plane at a few thousand feet away might disperse the light the same way looking across a hot road, or past a hot oven or over a barbeque.)  And tracking a 24' target at 2000' by hand with an object 6" long.  Can't happen.  Could you hit a fox at 2000' with a snub nose revolver?  Rifles are 3' long to improve accuracy, on a deer (5' not 2'), and usually NOT moving (especially not at 400 mph) when being shot at.  I think BS sums it up the best.

Steve

[sac01]

Oh OH! We should send this one into Myth Busters

[stevejt]

Oh OH! We should send this one into Myth Busters

That is the BEST idea I have heard in a LONG TIME!!!!!!!!!

Steve

[sac01]

I can see it now...

Jamie - "I adapted a huge laser onto this bottle shooting 7-UP vending machine I made for a TV commercial awhile back."

Adam - "The goal is to prove the laser/plane myth, but in reality, we hope to use the laser to guide a frozen chicken towards the planes windshield"


sac

[danny_galaga]

But wouldn't the nose of a cessna still block most of the beam?

[jf1288]

Wait, im so lost. There must be something im missing, but what lasers are we discussing. Please help teh noob.

[danny_galaga]

hehe. it was something about people on the ground shining laser pointers into the cockpits of landing aircraft. i think theres some links near the beginning of this thread.
oh, and welcome to the madness jf1288!

[Harry Potter]

You want your pilot to suffer spot blindness during landing?  And the laser used is 50x brighter than that red laser cat toy. 

50x more INTENSE/POWERFUL. Brighter is what a 60W light bulb is compared to a 40w bulb. If the laser really was 50x brighter, you wouldn't be able to look at the beam at all.

And secondly, most landings (from what I know) are done by autopilot. Unless the conditions are so bad (strong wind, rain, snow etc), in which case a laser would never make it that far and be effective.

[danny_galaga]

you still need to be able to see! otherwise theyd have BLIND pilots! what happens once you land? what about evasive manueveres? what if you need to go around? what about emergencies? what is the capital of bulgaria? if a tree falls in the forest was it because it got hit by a laser beam...

[etoasty]

you still need to be able to see! otherwise theyd have BLIND pilots! what happens once you land? what about evasive manueveres? what if you need to go around? what about emergencies? what is the capital of bulgaria? if a tree falls in the forest was it because it got hit by a laser beam...

yeah, that's about where this tread is going.

Maybe in FS 2005 you'll be able to set ramdom laser pointer assaults just like you can set random engine failures.

[DYNAGOD]

here is the link to the Myth busters "show idea" thread from discovery channel..
i would do it, but i think its better if we found someone here a little more articulate. or at least poin back to this thread.
http://discovery.infopop.net/1/OpenTopic?a=frm&s=6941912904&f=9701967776