Santa's birthday rocks!

[SeaMonkey]

ermmmm:

http://www.atheists.org/christianity/didjesusexist.html

A perfect example of a bad debator. Ceasar is hardly an historical peer of Jesus. A better argument would be, what other carpenter from Galalee is as independently documented as Jesus. He is in fact, the MOST docuemented carpenter from that time period, in all of Jeudea.

You would be hard pressed to find a better documented figure from his caste and time period.

"The publication of many examples of so-called wisdom literature, along with the materials from the Essene community at Qumran by the Dead Sea and the Gnostic literature from the Nag Hammadi library in Egypt, has given us a much more detailed picture of the communal psychopathologies which infested the Eastern Mediterranean world at the turn of the era"

LOL Calling people names because you don't agree with their spiritual practices (the Essene) really puts this biased piece in perspective.

[SeaMonkey]

Pagan sources mentioning Jesus:
      1. THALLUS (a Samaritan historian)
         a. Wrote attempting to give a natural explanation for the
            darkness which occurred at the crucifixion of Jesus
         b. Note carefully:
            1) He did not deny the existence of Jesus
            2) But only tried to explain away the strange circumstances
               surrounding His death
      2. LETTER OF MARA-SERAPION
         a. He tells of the deaths of Socrates, Pythagoras, and of Jesus
         b. "What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise
            king?...Nor did the wise king die for good; he lived on in
            the teaching which he had given."
      3. CORNELIUS TACITUS (Roman historian)
         a. Writes of Jesus in his ANNALS
         b. "Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by
            Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of
            Tiberias."
      4. PLINY THE YOUNGER
         a. Governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor
         b. Wrote to the emperor Trajan about Christians and their
            devotion to Christ
      5. SEUTONIUS (Court official and annalist under Hadrian)
         a. "As the Jews were making constant disturbance at the
            instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome."
         b. Luke makes reference to this same expulsion in Ac 18:1-2

Like I say, I am Jewish, I just fear that once this revision takes hold, then MY history will be targeted.

[danny_galaga]

fear not! all those people existed some time after jesus and as such THEY are the revisionists! mostly writing about things other people had told them. jesus wasn't observed first hand by any of them. you would think such an important character would have been mentioned in passing by some of his contemporaries. nothing. it's all conveniently written way after he was supposed to have existed.

"Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by
            Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of
            Tiberias."

that link i gave gives a good breakdown of that line from Tacitus. not least of all being why would this historian not call him by his name, rather than by the title of christ? jesus wasn't the christ of tacitus...

[SeaMonkey]

Most of the documents from that time are gone. Roman officials had access to first hand accounts that we do not. Why else would they be commenting on them in the first place? I will use the same argument used in the article that you posted.

"If these opponants had access to any proof Jesus didn't exist, they would have certainly used them."

 As you can see, they resorted to explaining him away, which suggests that this was the only tactic at their disposal.

The pyramids contain no names of kings. Every piece of information we have about who and why is just as second hand as the reports of Jesus, and yet, Khufu as archetect is taught in history. (I believe that history by the way.) In fact, some of this history isn't even "recorded" but simply "inferred".

[shmokes]

I'm mainly an atheist because I hate when people capitalize pronouns in the middle of a sentence.  Maybe for the Queen of England, but for god?  I think not.

[shmokes]

I love this "gift" of free will you keep harping on about Hulky.  He's going to wipe our memory and create something called "faith" which means believing in something without evidence, and free will is supposed to be a good thing?  How so?  What the hell kind of gift is that?  It's like your parents taking your $50 million inheritence and saying, "Hulkmaster, I know that we were just going to give this to you, but instead we've decided to give you two identical boxes.  One holds your inheritence and the other contains a bomb that will explode when you open it.  Isn't that lovely?  We've given you the gift of choice."

[DrewKaree]

I love this "gift" of free will you keep harping on about Hulky.  He's going to wipe our memory and create something called "faith" which means believing in something without evidence, and free will is supposed to be a good thing?  How so?  What the hell kind of gift is that?  It's like your parents taking your $50 million inheritence and saying, "Hulkmaster, I know that we were just going to give this to you, but instead we've decided to give you two identical boxes.  One holds your inheritence and the other contains a bomb that will explode when you open it.  Isn't that lovely?  We've given you the gift of choice."

Your analogy refers to an instantaneous decision, the decision to (according to our faith) send yourself to hell is made over time, and repeatedly.  Until death, God always offers the chance to spend eternity with Him. 

I don't understand the "wipe our memory" thing.

Other examples of faith - I have faith that my car will start in the morning.  I have faith that my boss will give me a paycheck on payday.  I have faith that ChadTower will deliver a kick.  I have faith that history happened as I read it in all those big, thick books in school.  I have faith that the sun will continue to burn tomorrow, the next day, and the day after that, all the way until my death, at which point it will still continue to burn, but only as a show of respect for the newly dead and the sacrifices he made in the name of humor to this world 

A better analogy using your inheritance example would be:
Your parents give you your 50 million dollar inheritance and tell you that you can do whatever you wish with it.  They've got a room set aside in their house for you to stay in whenever you come over, but if you piss all that money away due to your foolishness, you aren't allowed in their house again.

You can go to Las Vegas and try to double your money by betting on Keno a dollar at a time, or you can put it all in a big mayonnaise jar and bury it in the backyard.   


As for hating the capitalization of pronouns in the middle of a sentence, I especially like to do it when speaking of the President of The Unites States of America....other than that, I just do it out of respect - although I have no problem with you not doing it, that's your choice.

[Grasshopper]

Other examples of faith - I have faith that my car will start in the morning.  I have faith that my boss will give me a paycheck on payday.  I have faith that ChadTower will deliver a kick.  I have faith that history happened as I read it in all those big, thick books in school.  I have faith that the sun will continue to burn tomorrow, the next day, and the day after that, all the way until my death, at which point it will still continue to burn, but only as a show of respect for the newly dead and the sacrifices he made in the name of humor to this world 

Yes, but that's not the same as religious faith. For example, you know it's highly likely (but not totally certain) that your car will start in the morning simply because it has started most mornings in the past i.e. you've built up your 'faith' based on past experience.

Religious faith is not based on past experience, logical deduction, or credible evidence of any kind. That's why so many non-religious people have a problem with it.

Actually, you cannot really have absolute faith in anything, you merely deal in probabilities based on the level and quality of the evidence available.

There are a few questions I'm asking myself at this point.

I can sort of understand god wanting us to behave in a certain way, but why on earth does he want us to believe in him? Why does he care? I would assume that an infallible being would not have a psychological need to be believed in.

If god wants us to believe in him, then why doesn't he provide evidence of his existence instead of hoping that we'll believe in him based on 'faith' alone?

Also, is it really 'free will' when there is coercion involved? I would class the threat of spending an eternity in hell as an extreme form of coercion.

[Bones]

There are a few questions I'm asking myself at this point.

I can sort of understand god wanting us to behave in a certain way, but why on earth does he want us to believe in him? Why does he care? I would assume that an infallible being would not have a psychological need to be believed in.

That is interesting....... I have given the overall topic much consideration over the previous 20 years and never actually considered that very question.

[shmokes]

That is interesting....... I have given the overall topic much consideration over the previous 20 years and never actually considered that very question.

Ooh....Bones.  You need to read Letters From the Earth by Mark Twain.  It talks about all kinds of stuff like that and is HILARIOUS.  Good book that points out all kinds of crazy stuff that is almost embarassingly obvious, yet you've never thought of it.

[DrewKaree]

Other examples of faith - I have faith that my car will start in the morning.  I have faith that my boss will give me a paycheck on payday.  I have faith that ChadTower will deliver a kick.  I have faith that history happened as I read it in all those big, thick books in school.  I have faith that the sun will continue to burn tomorrow, the next day, and the day after that, all the way until my death, at which point it will still continue to burn, but only as a show of respect for the newly dead and the sacrifices he made in the name of humor to this world 

Yes, but that's not the same as religious faith. For example, you know it's highly likely (but not totally certain) that your car will start in the morning simply because it has started most mornings in the past i.e. you've built up your 'faith' based on past experience.

My boss promised me compensation for my work.  It wasn't put in writing.  According to my religious beliefs, God put his promise of "compensation" for my "work" in writing. 

I'm not promised that I'll get that paycheck, but I have faith that it will happen.  You speak of things that are highly likely, but not guaranteed.  You may believe it to be probable, but you head to your payroll clerk with the faith that you'll have a slip of paper with a bunch of figures that you can exchange for money.  Because they are not religious things, do you view that as a lesser level of faith?  Either you have faith that something will happen, or it won't.  I know quite a lot of people who HAVE TO have "religious faith" that little slip of paper is headed their way each week.  How would you wish to frame what "relgious faith" means?  What differentiates "religious" faith from "regular" faith?

Those history books.  A bunch of folks writing about something that happened a while ago, things that I couldn't possibly ever see.  I have to have faith that what they reported is factual and accurate.  Sounds kind of like another history book I'm fond of.  It's a bit smaller, and black.  Got a nice gold colored funny shaped "T" on the front.  It's my Bible. 

Religious faith is not based on past experience, logical deduction, or credible evidence of any kind. That's why so many non-religious people have a problem with it.

Mine is based on others' past experience and my present experience.  Based on everything I've read, my present experience, and what's happened, I find my deductions quite logical.  The evidence I believe in is highly credible to me, and hundreds of thousands of others.  That you feel equally convinced that it ISN'T credible DOESN'T discredit it, it's simply your opinion based on YOUR logical deduction.

You're attempting to argue my faith can be disproved, but you can't show me anything that says you're right.  I'm not attempting to argue that your faith or lack thereof can be disproved, I'm only telling you what I believe. 

I'm not the Christian who's sitting here telling you that "you must believe as I do, or else you're going to hell".  It flies directly in the face of my beliefs.  It's not my place to judge you, that's God's domain.  I've done what I needed to, the rest is not mine to worry about.  It seems as if you're more invested in showing me the error of my ways and that I should change my beliefs.  If we were talking politics, I'd say you had a shot at convincing me to do so.  If I believe the country needs to go in one direction or another, it won't affect where I spend eternity, it only affects what happens to me while I wait to meet my Maker.

If there is no "god" in the "religion" you believe in, what difference does it make if I don't accept your beliefs?  I'll die and turn into worm food.  You'll have beaten your dead horse for nothing 

[SeaMonkey]

I love this "gift" of free will you keep harping on about Hulky.

[sasuke_kun12]

[danny_galaga]

Other examples of faith - I have faith that my CAR will start in the morning.

[danny_galaga]

That is interesting....... I have given the overall topic much consideration over the previous 20 years and never actually considered that very question.

Ooh....Bones.

[DrewKaree]

Other examples of faith - I have faith that my CAR will start in the morning.  I have faith that my BOSS will give me a PAYCHEQUE on payday.

you poor misguided fool!

Call me a hopelessly romantic optimist.

I loves me cheQUE!

You're going to have to "wax eloquent" about Savuul soon.  (I know, I know, I blasphemed him again, but at least I capitaliSed his name...does that count for something? 

[danny_galaga]

That is interesting....... I have given the overall topic much consideration over the previous 20 years and never actually considered that very question.

Ooh....Bones.