Secularizing of the U.S.

[Pacific Ripper]

Recently, institutions in the US started leaning towards "Happy Holidays" instead of saying Merry Christmas and calling a Christmas Tree a "Holiday Tree" despite the fact a majority of people are Christians. This is unsulting to me. How would Jews like it if their Menorrah is referred to as a "Holiday Candelabra" from now on. Who gets offended from me saying "Merry Christmas" that we have to eliminate it?

[missioncontrol]

The schools don't call it Christmas Break anymore either it's called winter break

[DYNAGOD]

this is a move i think thats being pushed more by corperate america than any liberal views..
The big companies want everyone regardless if they are catholic/chrisitian or not to be a part of the Christmas shopping season..
Christmas has NOTHING to do with religion anymore, it has EVERYTHING to do with capitalism..  no business wants to have whole segemts of the population,in this case religious, not participating in driving their sales numbers higher..

[General Zod]

Recently, institutions in the US started leaning towards "Happy Holidays" instead of saying Merry Christmas and calling a Christmas Tree a "Holiday Tree" despite the fact a majority of people are Christians. This is unsulting to me. How would Jews like it if their Menorrah is referred to as a "Holiday Candelabra" from now on. Who gets offended from me saying "Merry Christmas" that we have to eliminate it?

I hear ya loud and clear, brother !!

Christmas time has been so bastardized over the last decade, I'd rather not be a part of it, at all! We're always so careful and timid by the words we say, as sure enough we're bound to step on someone's toes. Now I will say , BAH HUMBUG !!

I believe with all the media hype, and corporate BS pushing the season nowadays, it's only a matter of time before there is no Christmas to celebrate.

To make sure I won't be stepping on my fellow BYOAC'ers toes, I'll keep the remainder of my comments to myself.

[El Bucle]

I prefer "Happy Non-Denominational Winter Season."

[TOK]

This is just the whole Political Correctness thing manifesting itself. It's screwed up way more than Christmas. In order not to offend anyone, I'll just say:

HAPPY DAY! HOPE YOUR DAY WAS A DAY!

 

Merry Christmas everybody!

[Arcadiac]

This "liberal"  says Merry Christmas and Fook P.C.

ARCADIAC!

[saint]

Actually, the only thing I find offensive is your implication that it's Jews who are responsible for this.  If that's not what you meant please accept my apology in advance. If it is, I respectfully suggest your facts are wrong.

--- saint

Recently, institutions in the US started leaning towards "Happy Holidays" instead of saying Merry Christmas and calling a Christmas Tree a "Holiday Tree" despite the fact a majority of people are Christians. This is unsulting to me. How would Jews like it if their Menorrah is referred to as a "Holiday Candelabra" from now on. Who gets offended from me saying "Merry Christmas" that we have to eliminate it?

[paigeoliver]

This is a joke. 98 percent of america celebrates christmas, including atheists.

Nonchristian religions are a TINY TEENY TINY minority in America, with most "members" being nonpracticing. There are only 5 million jewish people in the entire country, and less than half of those are practicing. And my brief research shows some definite trends that are going to make those numbers go WAY down in the future (it appears that a huge percentage of jews now marry non-jews and almost all half-jews marry christians, combine that with the average of only 1.8 children for all married jews in their lifetime, and combine that with the fact that 33 percent of jewish males and 28 percent of Jewish women are unmarried).

Our Muslim population is higher than our Jewish population. Of course they are never going to get the muslims celebrating christmas, and even if they did, the average muslim in america is a single male who doesn't have a family to buy presents for in the first place.

It basically all comes down to not wanting to offend miltant atheists. The ones who go beyond not believing in God, the ones that make a religion out of it. The ones who file lawsuits, the ones that picket churches, and the ones that claim offense at any declarations of faith*.

You aren't going to please those people, AT ALL.

*Ever notice how the rapid Atheists ONLY speak out against Christians. never Jews or Muslims. That would be intolerant! =)

[saint]

I don't believe that shows an anti-Christian bias. For the most part, you don't see Hannukah displays (I'm not sure what displays are appropriate for Ramadan/Islamic holidays, but you can insert them here as well) on public property or funded by public taxes, so there's nothing on display by those religions for someone to object to.

It's also a fallacy that it's only atheists who object to religious displays on public property or under public funding. My home town is one of those that currently has a lawsuit in the works because the 10 commandments are on display in the court house, so it has gotten quite a bit of local discussion. There are very devoutly religious people in my town who simply believe in a strict interpretation of the separation of church and state, and don't think the 10 commandments should be posted in the court house. These are God fearing, church going people.

It is probably true however that the most vocal are the die hard atheists.

If there was a public school district that had a Hannukah break, displayed a giant menorah, or some such, I expect there would be objections raised -- particularly if that was the only religion represented.

The fact is that most religious holiday displays on public property are Christian, hence most religious displays targetted by those who object are Christian displays.

Don't forget also that the 10 commandments are not a Christian specific belief. They are both Judaic and Christian -- the current uproar against displaying the 10 commandments on public property isn't against Christian beliefs - it's against religion in general in the public sector.

Whether religion belongs in the public arena or not isn't something I'll take up the gauntlet for or against here. Just thought I'd point out my perspective that I don't think there is an overwhelming anti-Christian bias.

--- John

*Ever notice how the rapid Atheists ONLY speak out against Christians. never Jews or Muslims. That would be intolerant! =)

[saint]

By the way, lest I sound Scrooge like -- here's wishing everyone a very Merry Christmas

--- saint

[hulkster]

well i understand offending people and all that, but it seems like many people in america are very careful not to offend anyone by saying "merry christmas" or even acknowledging that its a Christian holiday.  but i wouldnt be very surprised if someone said Happy Hanukuh (or however you spell it) or Happy Kwanza and me being a Christian...if i were to say i was offended, i would be shot down like crazy saying i need to be "open" to other religious holidays.  maybe im just retarded, but thats what it seems like to me.   

[DrewKaree]

To everyone:

Have a RamaHanaKwanzMas

but if you're a person who's offended:

Have a day

Here's wishing you and yours a year filled with good gaming, no spilled drinks on your CP, perfect wiring that doesn't require troubleshooting.  May all your monitors display perfectly, and may all your buttons work correctly, lest the Ghost(ing) of Buttons Past show up at your doorstep.

[Sasquatch!]

This is unsulting to me.

I know far more theists that are insulted by "Happy Holidays" than I do non-theists that are insulted by "Merry Christmas",   Bottom line: both groups need to loosen up.  Seriously, you're showing a very intolerant view, don'tcha think?

[Sasquatch!]

Oh, and Saint said what I'm thinking but with much more eloquance.  Please re-read Saint's second post just to let it sink in.

[locash]

Here is an interesting article on this same topic:

http://www.reason.com/links/links122004.shtml

[Trenchbroom]

For years in the month of December while I was growing up my mother LOVED to bring up her favorite holiday gripe:  Xmas instead of Christmas.  Whenever she saw "Xmas" she would launch into her "secularism of Christmas is evil" diatribe and how absolutely horrible it was to substitute an X for Christ's name...I could almost recite her word from word.

How wonderful it was one year to put my expensive college education to use and tell her that X was the Greek symbol for Christ! Didn't really stop her completely but it took some thunder away...

[Sasquatch!]

Here is an interesting article on this same topic:

http://www.reason.com/links/links122004.shtml

That was a fascinating read.  Thanks for sharing this.

[shmokes]

Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.

[maraxle]

Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.

Jesus don't want me for a sunbeam.  Sunbeams are not made like me.

[lucindrea]

Personaly i think the whole things is rather dumb , if you want to call it christmas , xmas , the holaday seasion , what does it matter to me , if you want to display a stone tablet that basicly says dont kill each other and dont steel from each other - i tend to think that most of the world would aggree that those are decent rules to run a socitiy on ( ok their are a few lines on it that are a bit religious )

Dec 25 , it's christmas , why call it anything else?!?!?

Dec 26 is boxing day in Canada , do they call it anything differnt?

Dec 8th - 15th Hanukah
Dec 7 - perl harbor
Dec 15 - bill of rights written ( how meny amercians you think know that? )


If only politicians and political candidates and news anchors and print media writers and professors were as direct and as accurate in their choice of words as Carlin


I don

[DarkKobold]

I don't believe that shows an anti-Christian bias. For the most part, you don't see Hannukah displays (I'm not sure what displays are appropriate for Ramadan/Islamic holidays, but you can insert them here as well) on public property or funded by public taxes, so there's nothing on display by those religions for someone to object to.

etc....

Thank you Saint! Couldn't have said it better!

[danny_galaga]

This is a joke. 98 percent of america celebrates christmas, including atheists.

Nonchristian religions are a TINY TEENY TINY minority in America, with most "members" being nonpracticing. There are only 5 million jewish people in the entire country, and less than half of those are practicing. And my brief research shows some definite trends that are going to make those numbers go WAY down in the future (it appears that a huge percentage of jews now marry non-jews and almost all half-jews marry christians, combine that with the average of only 1.8 children for all married jews in their lifetime, and combine that with the fact that 33 percent of jewish males and 28 percent of Jewish women are unmarried).

Our Muslim population is higher than our Jewish population. Of course they are never going to get the muslims celebrating christmas, and even if they did, the average muslim in america is a single male who doesn't have a family to buy presents for in the first place.

It basically all comes down to not wanting to offend miltant atheists. The ones who go beyond not believing in God, the ones that make a religion out of it. The ones who file lawsuits, the ones that picket churches, and the ones that claim offense at any declarations of faith*.

You aren't going to please those people, AT ALL.

*Ever notice how the rapid Atheists ONLY speak out against Christians. never Jews or Muslims. That would be intolerant! =)

um, not ALL american christians celebrate christmas either. eg- jw's...
also, this tells us there are more jews than muslims in the US:

http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html

(hard to see on the page, here is cut and paste)

Jews: 5.6 million
Muslims: 4.1 million
Buddhists: 2.4 million
Hindus: 1 million

[geomartin]

Maybe we can give away some more of the holidays we set aside for our former presidents to satisfy the other religions.  The great melting pot is over...Someone turned the heat down and new immigrants don't seem to be blending in, we are just polarising.  Sometime in our life times we may see the break up of this great country.

[DrewKaree]

um, not ALL american christians celebrate christmas either. eg- jw's...
also, this tells us there are more jews than muslims in the US:

http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html

(hard to see on the page, here is cut and paste)

Jews: 5.6 million
Muslims: 4.1 million
Buddhists: 2.4 million
Hindus: 1 million

Just pointing this out for the benefit of our fellow readers, not assessing "rightness" or "wrongness" here.

danny, the figures you are stating - quoting directly from your linked page - are "According to the 2001 edition of David Barrett's World Christian Encyclopedia"

There have been many claims of Islam being the fastest growing religion in the U.S. - dunno what that means numbers-wise, and the figures you are pointing to are 3 years old.  The disparity may have evened out or become wider in one direction or the other.

*edit*
I also realized that in order for the book to be available in 2001, the figures were probably gained in 2000.

[shmokes]

Not calling it Christmas is funny.  Christmas day is christmas day regardless of whether you're christian.  Martin Luther King day is Martin Luther King day even if you're a member of the KKK.  If you don't want to celebrate it because of its religious origins, that's fine, but it's still Christmas day.  That said, I think that it's really positive and smart move for businesses to change to Happy Holidays.  As a business it's stupid to exclude whole groups of people and Christmas obviously is included in the term Happy Holidays.

People go all crazy about Target sending out only "Happy Holiday" messages, but it's not like the store isn't filled with Christmas stuff.  I bought my Christmas cards there and they say "Merry Christmas" on them.  I bought my Christmas tree and quite a few decorations and ornaments there.  It's not as though Christmas has been cut out of the holiday equation.

That said, I think it sounds contrived and generic and lame for me to say, "Happy Holidays," to another person.  I personally say, "Merry Christmas," or, I guess, "Happy Hanukah," to people when I'm talking to them.  But, "Happy Holidays," works better for businesses, IMHO.

And, by the way, there's a lot more to the Stone Tablets than "Thou Shalt Not Kill".  That one is probably covered by local statutes.  The Ten Commandments also include some stuff about worshiping god and not taking his name in vein and stuff.

[shmokes]

I just read The Clash of Civilizations by Samuel P. Huntington who is considered one of the top experts on international relations in the world.  I didn't check his sources, but according to that book Islam is growing at an astronomically faster pace than Christianity and Muslims will outnumber Christians worldwide before 2015.  The reason for this is that Christianity is only growing through missionary work, and at no greater pace than Islam -- which also grows similarly through missionary work.  Islam, however, is growing mainly through reproduction.  Apparently Muslims are reproducing like bunnies while Christian populations are remaining relatively constant.

Once again, this is according to that book and I have not checked his sources.  He is well respected, though.

[lucindrea]

i did say their are a few lines that are very spefic to the reglion , and if anyone cars . moses was jewish so that stone tablet covers ALLOT more religions than just christians , anyway technicly christians are jews that belive christ was the son of god - jewish peoples do belive he exsisted , just not who he was ( their are some that dont belive he exsisted also )... all i was saying was that excluding the reglious parts , it's a decent set of rules for anyone. ( although i think alot of men would of liked the adultry part to of been left out heh ) ... althought now that i think of it , i can only come up with the first 6 or so. but also keep in mind , their are several differnt wordings of them so it really has alot to do with whoes version your looking at.

my main thing is that changing the name of a day just to appeal to more shoppers for a day that celabrates the birth of someone who if anything did not aggree with the greedy or the ones making money off those who had none is a slap in the face of those who put alot of faith into that day.

[clanggedin]

There have been many claims of Islam being the fastest growing religion in the U.S. - dunno what that means numbers-wise, and the figures you are pointing to are 3 years old.

[Pacific Ripper]

Actually, the only thing I find offensive is your implication that it's Jews who are responsible for this.  If that's not what you meant please accept my apology in advance. If it is, I respectfully suggest your facts are wrong.

I am not implying that Jews are responsible for this, I am part Jewish. Perhaps I should've chosen Muslims, Buddhists or Zoroastrianists as an example.... Darn.. I forgot to wish you all a Merry Christmas... oh well I been busy long driving - Happy Belated Cristmas and a Happy New year!

[shmokes]

The figures I've seen on the subject point to Mormanism as the fastest growing religion in the US.

Heh...the Mormons have a few nasty habits that tend to inflate those numbers.  The process of being removed from their records is very long and difficult.  They also do a great deal of missionary work in poverty stricken areas.  When people join the church they gain access to the Bishop's Storehouse (charity food).  Even if you never go to church and move away and the church has no idea where the hell you are and it's been 40 years since you attended or even thought about the church, you are officially a member. 

I grew up in Utah and was raised mormon (my dad was a Mormon bishop).  I know a couple dozen people, at least, that were raised mormon and no longer believe in it (some of them don't believe in God at all).  I only know two people who have officially been removed from their records.

[rchadd]

Happy Birthday Jesus