WinXP Minimum Install

[Pilot143]

ok, I'm SURE this has been asked before, but I've searched and searched (here and others) and can't find my answers...

AMD 1 Ghz
ASUS k8v? (sounds right?

[paigeoliver]

Actually, your OS shouldn't ever need any updates on a cab-only computer, as 95 percent of OS updates are security and the other 5 percents rarely have anything to do with emulators.

[DrewKaree]

update ROMS only

what you SHOULD be wondering why the heck you just don't stick in a cheap CD-ROM instead of fack around with a friggen network, and then either burn your updated ROMS to a CD or use a USB key to do this.  Your goal is in direct contradiction to your methods of update.

Oh, and for XP, go to Black Viper's site.  You'll be AMAZED at all the network-needed crap you can shut down or disable.

nLite seems to be a free alternative to XP lite, which will let you disable/remove a whole lotta stuff you don't need.

I'd recommend removing Outlook Express, IE, Help files, ANYTHING network related, ALL fonts except the basic standard 3-5 MAME may use (or the ones you want to use) Windows Media Player, sheesh, there should be a ton of stuff listed, when reading it should either make sense (even if only a little) to keep it, such as DLL's, or it should be pretty clear you won't need it to run your cab, such as Paint.

nLite will let you slipstream stuff, so that'd be an easy way to pare stuff out, just make sure you have your XP disc handy.

[lucindrea]

carfull with media player , some of the dll's are hooked into the same ones daphne uses

[DrewKaree]

How about using this thread, or starting another one, to identify all non-essential items (which would also identify some possible conflicts, as Lucindrea pointed out, with other emu's) in order to figure out the minimum requirements from XP?

Then set up a tutorial on how to use nLite to do these things.

Seem like a good idea?

[quarterback]

This will be a true cab machine... for NOTHING else but games... boot to mamewah, shut down (gotta eat/work sometime) from mamewah.

1. How do I get the smallest/quickest install of XP? updates necessary etc?

[Pilot143]

XP is what I have... if there are others that can support the same thing, then great... but what is easily avaliable?  I've heard 98se can get down to 9 mb?  or something rediculous... but what about usb support and compatability... I was under the impression that xp was the one to use in that respect?

size isn't THAT big of a deal... but definately to trim the fat off of it etc and get it down to minimums really is mainly it.  (more room for roms/expansion) I just dont' see the point of installing a huge operating system if its not used that way...

[paigeoliver]

Actually it is a win95 install that can be pared down to 9MB. I did it on my old laptop!

I don't THINK you can get a 98 install that small.

[Pilot143]

ah ha!  I knew I saw it someplace...

http://www.litepc.com/

Embedded Windows 98 / ME with EOS
Images as small as 9 MB!! with the Explorer GUI
no need for compression or ram disks
boot times from 3-10 seconds!
Industry proven reliability
zero shutdown time - instant power on/off
run from 1" hard drive, flash memory, removable USB keys whatever!


sounds like a mame cab to me...   sorry... I knew I saw it SOMEplace... this wasn't even it... but still works the same...

[DrewKaree]

ah ha!  I knew I saw it someplace...

http://www.litepc.com/

Embedded Windows 98 / ME with EOS
Images as small as 9 MB!! with the Explorer GUI
no need for compression or ram disks
boot times from 3-10 seconds!
Industry proven reliability
zero shutdown time - instant power on/off
run from 1" hard drive, flash memory, removable USB keys whatever!


sounds like a mame cab to me...   sorry... I knew I saw it SOMEplace... this wasn't even it... but still works the same...

OK, I've got that prog, it's called 98lite.  I TRIED to reach the 9 Mb install.  I PROMISE you it can be done, but I also promise you that if you got it to that size, you'd be better off going to DOS, as at that size, it's essentially Win 3.1 with Win95-type interface.  It causes random problems, including certain compatibility issues with MAME.  The XP version of this program does the same thing, in fact, I've found XP Lite to be useful for removing a few items, but by and large useful only for removing IE, which is what this program originally started out trying to prove was possible.

You'd be better off either using DOS or trying Knoppix and compiling MAME for it.  I'm not positive, but IIRC, Fraggal was a fairly sleek install, but someone else here will be more qualified to comment on that.

Also, did you decide to go with a CD-ROM instead of network updates? 

I won't be tinkering with XP for a month or so, so I'll be interested in your results and methods

[krick]

If you plan to boot directly into mamewah, you might want to think about Windows 98SE.

You can easily change the "shell" from explorer.exe to mamewah.exe in system.ini so it boots directly in.
I've heard that to do the same thing in XP it requires editing the registry.

I think that even a full install of windows 98SE including the options/cabs folder is still under 200M or so.

[kujina]

If you plan to boot directly into mamewah, you might want to think about Windows 98SE.

You can easily change the "shell" from explorer.exe to mamewah.exe in system.ini so it boots directly in.
I've heard that to do the same thing in XP it requires editing the registry.

I think that even a full install of windows 98SE including the options/cabs folder is still under 200M or so.

[elvis]

You'll see more performance gains by turning off services you don't use.  Right-click "my computer", click "manage", click "services and applications" and then "services". 

Turn off things like indexing services, print spoolers, etc.  If you do use LitePC, make sure you keep your basic DirectX and video/audio drivers installed for obvious reasons.

Also under control panel -> system -> advanced -> performance -> Visual Effects, select the "Adjust for best performance" option to turn off all the XP eye candy and save yourself a good 20MB or so of system memory.

As for Win98 not supporting HT... that doesn't really matter.  MAME is not SMP aware, so even with HT enabled you'll see no gain while playing games.

However Win98 only supports FAT32 file systems, which suck when you power down incorrectly.  WinXP uses NTFS5 complete with journalling, which means no half-hour disk check if you cab shuts down incorrectly.  As already mentioned, FAT32 also does not support large disks.  That said, the entire collection of MAME ROMs fits on a 20GB hard disk (that's what's in my cab) sans CHDs.

[krick]

As for Win98 not supporting HT... that doesn't really matter.

[Howard_Casto]

Ok the rundown (sorry to disagree with nearly everyone, but hey, your advice isn't the best and I've probaby done this a few more times than you guys)

Dos:  No, don't even think about it, if you computer cna handle windwos then it's too new to use dos. 

Linux:  See Dos.  Also support files and a vartiety of fes/ emulators don't have linux ports. 

95:  It's unstable.  Unless you want to have to overhaul your cab every few months don't use it. 

98/98se/me:  See windows 95.

2000:  NO.  It lacks certain hardware accelerations useful for daphne and front ends.  Also in general, (pc) games run slower on it. 

XP:  There you go.  It's stable, works well with games, and is the current platform that 95% of all developers work in. Sticking with it offers the best compatability.  Also many of the newer emulators only run in xp. 

95 lite/98 lite/xp lite ect:  NO.  They are crap.  They take out things that are necessary to run certain games and emulators.  They also all mess around with the direct-x install, which is a huge no-no. 

Minimal Installs in General:  They aren't worth it.  They require unnecessary time and effort for little to no speed increases.  They only take up harddrive space and harddrives are cheap.  Turning off services might be a good idea though as they actually reduce xp's memory footprint.  Head over to blackviper.com for details. 

Network Updates:  Yes they definately are necessary.  Not so much for security, but for bug fixes.  Service pack two fixed a ton of older games, which didn't even run before.  Also even though people (wrongly) give m$ a hard time about security, most of the xp updates involve a issue found when a certian combination of software is installed. 

Network Connection:  While you could use a cdrom I think it's a really dumb idea.  The average major mame update adds 200-500 megs of games.  Since you probably aern't going to be updating mame every time, when you do update I could easily see an update requiring multiple cds. Sure you can waste 20 minutes of your life making cd images and another 20 burning them, but the smart thing is to have your "roms" folder shared over the network so you can just turn both machines on and drop em in the folder.  And since any idiot can setup a home network with xp, I really don't see any hassle in it. 

[krick]

Ok the rundown (sorry to disagree with nearly everyone, but hey, your advice isn't the best and I've probaby done this a few more times than you guys)

I agree with you on 99% of what you said.

If at all possible, *most* people should use Windows XP,  I wouldn't wish DOS or Win95/ME on my worst enemy, and "lite" installations of anything are just asking for headaches.

However, there are situations where Windows 98SE (note the "SE") does have it's place.  Primarily on older hardware.  98SE can install on systems with as little as 16M of memory...
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/182751/EN-US/

Also don't discount the power of sneakernet.  Not everybody can physically run a network to their MAME cabinet.  Mine is in a part of the house that would be almost impossible to get a network cable installed to without ripping a hole in the wall.   I think installing a CD-ROM drive (or for a little more money, a DVD-ROM drive) and transferring updates via disc is totally acceptable.

[jimj]

Also don't discount the power of sneakernet. Not everybody can physically run a network to their MAME cabinet. Mine is in a part of the house that would be almost impossible to get a network cable installed to without ripping a hole in the wall. I think installing a CD-ROM drive (or for a little more money, a DVD-ROM drive) and transferring updates via disc is totally acceptable.

I don't think a sneakernet is that bad either.  Just FYI, with home phoneline networking, powerline networking, and wireless, cost is the only reason you couldn't install a home network if you wanted to.  For $50 I got two of these http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=33-129-218R&depa=0
and got my cab networked with no problems.

[elvis]

Linux:  See Dos.  Also support files and a vartiety of fes/ emulators don't have linux ports. 

I'm running Linux (Slackware 10) and AdvanceMAME/AdvanceMenu to SVGALib output on a ~100MB install (including compiler).  On a 2GB hard disk I can fit every single vertical game plus emulator and frontend, which makes for a nice cocktail setup.

WinXP is nice and quick to set up.  But if you actually have some geek know-how, linux can make for a very nice custom setup which is MUCH faster on bootup, and looks more like an embedded system rather than a PC with an emulator.

I used WinXP on my first cab simply because I was far too lazy.  My second cab will most certainly be Linux. 

[elvis]

I think that in order to even install Win98 on a motherboard with a HT processor, you have to go into the BIOS and disable hyperthreading and I'm not sure that it will still even work correctly.

Win98 is not SMP aware.  It will simply ignore the second "virtual" CPU and function just fine.  Your biggest worry is finding motherboard/chipset drivers for Win98 for new boards.  As mentioned above, if you have a HT processor, there's a good chance WinXP will run faster/better on your hardware anyway.

Does powering down by hitting the computer's power button cause problems?  As I understand it, pressing the power button initiates a proper shutdown.

Correct.  A "soft off" power down will shutdown correctly.  What I was referring to was an incorrect power down such as a blackout, or your kid tripping over the power cable.

When compressed properly, the entire MAME 0.88 ROM set including CHDs is about 28.6GB.

Not bad.  Only an extra ~10GB for CHDs.  I expected more for some reason.  I don't enjoy playing anything that uses CHDs, so I don't bother keeping them on a hard disk.

[paigeoliver]

Dos:  No, don't even think about it, if you computer cna handle windwos then it's too new to use dos. 

I have a dos based cabinet that someone else put together and it is the most trouble free one I have ever had.

95:  It's unstable.  Unless you want to have to overhaul your cab every few months don't use it. 

98/98se/me:  See windows 95.

My Galaga mame has been going on a 98 install for 2 years now, without a hitch.  Matter of fact, I have never had a windows 98SE installed on a cabinet go bad. I also ran a windows 95 based cabinet in my early days, without any issues.

XP:  There you go.  It's stable, works well with games, and is the current platform that 95% of all developers work in. Sticking with it offers the best compatability.  Also many of the newer emulators only run in xp. 

Agreed, for new computers, forget it for old ones though.

95 lite/98 lite/xp lite ect:  NO.  They are crap.  They take out things that are necessary to run certain games and emulators.  They also all mess around with the direct-x install, which is a huge no-no. 

Minimal Installs in General:  They aren't worth it.  They require unnecessary time and effort for little to no speed increases.  They only take up harddrive space and harddrives are cheap.  Turning off services might be a good idea though as they actually reduce xp's memory footprint.  Head over to blackviper.com for details. 

Totally agreed, the entire XP install takes up less space then a few of those oh so precious CHD files.

Network Updates:  Yes they definately are necessary.  Not so much for security, but for bug fixes.  Service pack two fixed a ton of older games, which didn't even run before.  Also even though people (wrongly) give m$ a hard time about security, most of the xp updates involve a issue found when a certian combination of software is installed. 

Couldn't disagree more about this. Service pack 2 made it so some older games can run, an also increased the memory footprint and overhead of the OS immensely, and all those games ran on 98. Matter of fact, I think 98 is still compatible with 100 percent of windows games. And can you point me towards those XP only emulators?

Network Connection:  While you could use a cdrom I think it's a really dumb idea.  The average major mame update adds 200-500 megs of games.  Since you probably aern't going to be updating mame every time, when you do update I could easily see an update requiring multiple cds. Sure you can waste 20 minutes of your life making cd images and another 20 burning them, but the smart thing is to have your "roms" folder shared over the network so you can just turn both machines on and drop em in the folder.  And since any idiot can setup a home network with xp, I really don't see any hassle in it. 

I fail to see why one would ever update the software in their cabinet with the latest roms? Few of them are going to work full speed or correctly, so WHY would you install them on your cabinet. The same goes for the latest versions of mame, which are slower and slower with each release.

Speaking of new roms, and of adding them to your cabinet.
Take a good hard look at what is getting added to mame these days? Four types of games.

[.]Mahjong games.
[.]Obscure older games that no one has ever heard of and aren't going to play.
[.]Really new games that require the absolute latest hardware or even non-existant hardware to run.
[.]Clones

I read the what's new files, and almost everything added to mame for several years now with very few exceptions has fit into one of those 4 categories. PC hardware eventually catches up to the very new games, but the hardware already installed in your cabinet isn't going to get any faster, and the new mame versions are going to make your existing games slower, so why update?

Howard, feel free to correct me on this, but as far as I KNOW you don't actually have a cabinet, which means you don't have a special Mame computer, which means that you don't actually have any experience with them. Writing frontends? Running and admin'ing Windows? Sure, you have loads of experience with that, but I am not exactly sure how qualified you are to comment on what is needed with a dedicated cabinet computer when you have no experience with it.


Actually, the fact that you only seem to be around the software side of the scene and don't seem to know a whole lot about the actual cabinet side of the scene shows through in a lot of you posts. I believe your comments in this thread are 100 percent correct for DESKTOP computers, but are way off for cabinet computers.

It might also pain you to hear this, but we still run windows 95 at work, including a server running windows 95, and the installs on all of them but one are from 1997. And you know what? We don't have any troubles with them. The only troubles we ever have are the fact that the stupid custom DOS app we run is poorly coded.

It also might pain you to hear that there are still millions of Windows 95 installs kicking around. I think Win 95 OSR2 actually ages a whole lot better than 98. I have had to format and reinstall countless 98, ME and XP installs (the desktops and laptops, not cab computers), but I never had to wipe and reinstall a 95OSR2 install unless it was a virus.

[)p(]

Howard, feel free to correct me on this, but as far as I KNOW you don't actually have a cabinet, which means you don't have a special Mame computer, which means that you don't actually have any experience with them. Writing frontends? Running and admin'ing Windows? Sure, you have loads of experience with that, but I am not exactly sure how qualified you are to comment on what is needed with a dedicated cabinet computer when you have no experience with it.


Actually, the fact that you only seem to be around the software side of the scene and don't seem to know a whole lot about the actual cabinet side of the scene shows through in a lot of you posts. I believe your comments in this thread are 100 percent correct for DESKTOP computers, but are way off for cabinet computers.

More then 5000 post here and you dont know about any of HC's cab projects    Hehe waiting for HC's reaction on this one   

peter

[paigeoliver]

Howard, feel free to correct me on this, but as far as I KNOW you don't actually have a cabinet, which means you don't have a special Mame computer, which means that you don't actually have any experience with them. Writing frontends? Running and admin'ing Windows? Sure, you have loads of experience with that, but I am not exactly sure how qualified you are to comment on what is needed with a dedicated cabinet computer when you have no experience with it.


Actually, the fact that you only seem to be around the software side of the scene and don't seem to know a whole lot about the actual cabinet side of the scene shows through in a lot of you posts. I believe your comments in this thread are 100 percent correct for DESKTOP computers, but are way off for cabinet computers.

More then 5000 post here and you dont know about any of HC's cab projects    Hehe waiting for HC's reaction on this one   

peter

Well, he certainly never seems to mention his cabinet/s if he has them. 

There also seems to be no link to them at his website, and he has never started a thread in project announcements.

EDIT.

OK, in search I found a few mentions of howard having A cabinet. Apparently made a long time ago. You still updating that sucker with the new mame versions being that it is like 3+ years old now?

I guess howard does have a cabinet. but that doesn't change the fact that I disagree with him, nor does it change the fact that I have more experience in the area. 

[Howard_Casto]

I'm working on my third and 4th now.  Don't assume anything.  I don't feel that I have to justify my own work, nor do I have to glorify it by giving each and every little thing I do it's own webpage like others do in this community.  I'll just leave it at that. 

I just love it how people who don't have any valid points to make attack someone's credibility.  I just shows that they don't know what they are talking about. 

[DrewKaree]

95 lite/98 lite/xp lite ect:  NO.  They are crap.  They take out things that are necessary to run certain games and emulators.  They also all mess around with the direct-x install, which is a huge no-no. 

They do none of those things.  If there is an error with install using these, it is due to the user choosing to remove things. 

I hardly see how removing notepad, paint, IE, DrWatson, etc will make running certain games and emulators impossible.

Paige is simply stating exactly what you are, an opinion about what is/has/will run on his systems, and the effectiveness of each.  You stating each and every time this subject is brought up that XP is the be all/end all to OS' serves the exact same purpose as Paige continuing to tell everyone to use v0.55 every time someone brings up the "what version to use".

To continue to categorically denounce any OS other than XP serves no useful purpose.  People will continue to build cabs with DOS, linux, 98, et al and have no more problems than with using XP. 

I know it's a trifling point, but perhaps explaining ad nauseum as to what you are referring to when stating "it's buggy, it sucks, THAT OS is as useful as a bag of dog crap" will make folks understand what you are referring to, and use your INFORMATION to make their own choice, rather than you continually feeling the need to give your opinion on this subject over and over.

In fact, your information might even prove to be so useful as to warrant a sticky, to give us empirical evidence that, indeed, your choice of XP no matter the situation, is what we should all follow.  As of right now, I've got a few PC's that run 98 just fine, but to upgrade them to be able to run XP would be folly, so I'd be one who would pass on your "use XP" advice.


I continually get the feeling that your theory is - if you don't have the money to do it right, you shouldn't do it that way at all. 

[Mameotron]

I generally try to stay away from these kinds of threads because it is impossible to answer these kinds of questions.

[Howard_Casto]

Regarding uneducated remarks:

The lite programs DO remove a lot of necessary files.  They remove part of the vb dlls (necessary for many front ends)  they remove many of the visual studio files in general (necessary for many other helper apps).  Most importantly they remove ie, which is connected to directx (particularly directshow filters) which can potentially totally hose up anything requiring directx.  And does removing stuff like dr watson and notepad hurt the install?  No but notepad is 45 k and dr watson is about a meg and as I said (but you ignored)  harddrives are cheap and it's not worht the extra time to run the lite programs and troubleshoot for 3 hours whenver you run into an exotic pc game, emulator or frontend that doesn't agree with them.  How do I know all of this?  Because, a few years ago in college I was in charge of determining if the lite programs would be a viable alternative to a standard install for several null terminals we wished to setup in the library.  After testing the software we needed I also tested various emulator setups.  All ran into problems with certain combinations.  Oh and btw.... all fes use cfg files that are best opened with notepad, so having it installed comes in handy. 


I have NEVER stated that no other os but xp serves no useful purpose.  The guy has a gig processor and plenty of ram.  Why run an inferior os when you don't have to? 

98 is great... assuming you enjoy overhauling it every year or so and don't keep your cab running for several hours at a time.  Otherwise, memory leaks and minor glitches will get the best of you, especially on hardware that isn't so state of the art.  I've seen certain hardware configurations randomly crash when running mame and only mame.  On the flip side these same machines running xp work like a champ.  It has a lot to do with what some people are calling bloat, that is in actuality a dozen or so support programs keeping the memory clean and avoding dll conflicts as well as a ton of extra "old school" drivers, which keeps the users from wondering why their sound card pops when they use the drivers the manufacturer suggests. 

Linux is too much hassle.  Great os, too much hassle.  And considering once you get it up and running you have cut your choices of emulators by a factor of 3 and fes by a factor of 25 it just ins't worth the extra effort tot eh average user.  If you are a linux freak sure, but how can I possibly know that?

Same with dos....  except it's kind aold and busted and your choices are even fewer. 

See the problem is you guys are doing the exact same thing you are accusing me of, letting your own personal choice interfere with what you should suggest in general, based upon the question asked.   Like it or not, if you have a good pc, don't want to spend an unnesessary amount of time fiddling with the os, and are an average computer user, and want to be able to potentially expand your fe/ emualtor choices int he future without reinstalling the os, at this point xp is the only way to go.


People who never upgrade their cabs on the software end are missing out.  While I'll agree upgrading mame for every single version is dumb.... once in a while when something interesting comes out is just common sense.  Also there are brand new emulators like chankast (which will ONLY run in xp) which allow you to play those yet unemulated cps3 games.  You don't build something and assume you'll never add onto it.  Unless your one of these "weekend mid-life crisis" mame builder who build a sub par cab in a weekend, plays it for about a month and then it sits in a basement somewhere collecting dust.  But I don't mean to get grouchy there, my point is it's always a good idea to plan ahead as it'll save you a lot of work later down the road. 


Mameotron,  I appreciate your civial respone. The only problem... I wasn't talking about mame.  Mame will run on about everything.  It's the front ends, emulators, and most noteably pc games where you'll run into trouble.  And it's not a 100% of the time thing.  Your mileage will vary depending upon your setup.  But if you haven't started yet why take that chance?


And Drew on a closing note, if you knew how cheap I am you wouldn't even question wheather I think pumping money in a project will fix it. Quite the opposite.  However I don't see how this is an issue as all oses (except for linux) cost the same.  And if you don't have a copy of xp at this point then I really don't see how you can comment anyway.  I loved 98 until I upgraded my first pc to xp, and then I realized how much better an os can be. 

[elvis]

Regarding uneducated remarks:

Nice blanket statement there my friend.

You still haven't convinced me why it's worth the money to buy a copy of WinXP just for a cab when Linux works just as well, and does so for free.  But that's just the hippy in me talking now.  And if you can code in VB, then running a Linux box should be a walk in the park. (This post is brought to you courtest of Gentoo Linux, too)

As for the LitePC comments... you do have quite a bit of choice as to what you can remove.  It's not just a "nuke everything" type program.  If you're not clever enough to work out that removing DirectX means fullscreen DirectDraw stretch won't work, then you really don't deserve to be playing games at all.