Author Topic: 3D Mame possible? (Read 3815 times)

javeryh · « **on:** October 28, 2004, 05:37:32 pm »

I know Mame can do some 3d now but is it possible for Mame to eventually emulate games such as Soul Caliber, Tekken 4 and the like or will another program have to be developed to run sophisticated 3d games? The developers have done an amazing job so far but I wonder what (if any) the limits of mame will be... it will be cool to see some of the cabs people start to build in a few years with skateboards, waverunners, oars and other wacky things as CPs...

DaemonCollector · « **Reply #1 on:** October 28, 2004, 05:43:17 pm »

Thats what Zinc does

RayB · « **Reply #2 on:** October 28, 2004, 06:39:11 pm »

I personally can't wait to build my own rocking horse controller!

blueoakleyz · « **Reply #3 on:** October 28, 2004, 08:10:42 pm »

Personally before I build a mame cabinet I am going to wait until cheap computers (around $1000 or preferably less, dedicated to just mame) can perfectly run mame + 3D games like Mortal Kombat 4 or even Tekken 4

skid_68 · « **Reply #4 on:** October 28, 2004, 09:27:44 pm »

Quote from: blueoakleyz on October 28, 2004, 08:10:42 pm

Personally before I build a mame cabinet I am going to wait until cheap computers (around $1000 or preferably less, dedicated to just mame) can perfectly run mame + 3D games like Mortal Kombat 4 or even Tekken 4

LOL, ok well please post pics of it when its done. In lets say about 2020?

blueoakleyz · « **Reply #5 on:** October 28, 2004, 09:33:04 pm »

Why?
How long do you think it'll take?
I figure since my computer is CLOSE to running the 3D mame games but can't really, I figure in 2 years or so there will be one that can

Dave_K. · « **Reply #6 on:** October 29, 2004, 01:17:14 am »

Quote from: blueoakleyz on October 28, 2004, 08:10:42 pm

Personally before I build a mame cabinet I am going to wait until cheap computers (around $1000 or preferably less, dedicated to just mame) can perfectly run mame + 3D games like Mortal Kombat 4 or even Tekken 4

Umm...I saw these dedicated gaming computers that are out now that play Mortal Kombat 4 and Tekken 4 and a bunch of other NEW arcade games. Its a breeze to hookup to a cab. Best of all they are under $150 a pop! They are called "consoles".

blueoakleyz · « **Reply #7 on:** October 29, 2004, 01:19:11 am »

That's exactly what I'm building (and probably why I won't need to wait for this super-computer to build a mame machine)... I was just referring to a mame system though.

However my new dream is a machine that can play every game pre-97 (mostly all 2D)...that shouldn't be hard right?

Dave_K. · « **Reply #8 on:** October 29, 2004, 01:22:34 am »

Yeah, not hard at all, just get an xbox modded with Mame.

blueoakleyz · « **Reply #9 on:** October 29, 2004, 01:25:14 am »

nah I dont want to go the xbox route
i'm saying in a year or two maybe, I'll make a true mame-arcade cabinet but want it to run most games pre-97 (would that include those crazy Marvel Vs. Capcom games? If not, can any computer easily run that?)

Dave_K. · « **Reply #10 on:** October 29, 2004, 01:29:42 am »

Marvel v.s. Capcom came out in 98. And you can play a perfectly emulated version of it on Dreamcast for $35. Marvel v.s. Capcom 2 is also available for xbox.

You can play almost all of those crazy capcom fighting games on Dreamcast, perfectly emulated.

The point here being, consoles can play all those games that Mame can't, at 100% perfect speed and emulation, and at a fraction of the cost of a computer.

blueoakleyz · « **Reply #11 on:** October 29, 2004, 01:37:22 am »

lol ok I know
but this is the arcade emulator I'm talking about

Dave_K. · « **Reply #12 on:** October 29, 2004, 01:42:24 am »

*smacks head*

Minwah · « **Reply #13 on:** October 29, 2004, 07:30:57 am »

Marvel vs Capcom is in MAME...MvC2 is not as it uses Naomi (basically Dreamcast) hardware.

What Dave_K is getting at is that if you want to play games like MvC2 in MAME, then forget it. Even if it were emulated if would be slow as hell, unplayable on any available PC. Your ONLY option is to use a console.

SOAPboy · « **Reply #14 on:** October 29, 2004, 07:35:48 am »

Quote from: Minwah on October 29, 2004, 07:30:57 am

Marvel vs Capcom is in MAME...MvC2 is not as it uses Naomi (basically Dreamcast) hardware.

What Dave_K is getting at is that if you want to play games like MvC2 in MAME, then forget it. Even if it were emulated if would be slow as hell, unplayable on any available PC. Your ONLY option is to use a console.

why would MvC2 be so "hardcore" to run.. its just a 2d fighter.. i mean, Killer Instinct 2 runs "harder" than any 2d ive ever played and my rig runs all the KI stuff just peachy..

Dexter · « **Reply #15 on:** October 29, 2004, 07:41:59 am »

Quote from: javeryh on October 28, 2004, 05:37:32 pm

I know Mame can do some 3d now but is it possible for Mame to eventually emulate games such as Soul Caliber, Tekken 4 and the like or will another program have to be developed to run sophisticated 3d games?

It will be, all it takes is the computing power

RayB · « **Reply #16 on:** October 29, 2004, 09:15:43 am »

Well let's see, Atari PONG was 2D, and MvC is 2D... hmm I guess they would require exactly the same computing power to run, right?

javeryh · « **Reply #17 on:** October 29, 2004, 09:40:50 am »

Marvel vs. Capcom runs perfectly smooth for me in mame on my crappy P3 733mhz computer that is well over 4 years old... MvsC2 would be nice but I guess it's all in due time... I would think eventually most, if not all, 2D games will be emulated perfectly in mame...

Minwah · « **Reply #18 on:** October 29, 2004, 09:51:07 am »

Quote from: SOAPboy on October 29, 2004, 07:35:48 am

why would MvC2 be so "hardcore" to run.. its just a 2d fighter.

Wrong - have you ever played it?? Look at the fully animated high-res 3d backgrounds. That requires a serious amount of CPU power. And to emulate that requires a SERIOUS amount of CPU power. And to emulate that accurately requires a *SERIOUS* amount of CPU power.

So as I said, forget it.

blueoakleyz · « **Reply #19 on:** October 29, 2004, 01:47:41 pm »

But seriously do you guys think that they will be perfectly emulated SOMEday?
I mean remember 15 years ago people thought Ms. Pac-Man was graphically advanced

SirPoonga · « **Reply #20 on:** October 29, 2004, 01:54:52 pm »

Is it pre-renderred background though?

RayB · « **Reply #21 on:** October 29, 2004, 06:18:24 pm »

Quote from: blueoakleyz on October 29, 2004, 01:47:41 pm

But seriously do you guys think that they will be perfectly emulated SOMEday?

Of course. In the mid to late 90's we were playing Ms Pac with frame skipping for pete's sake. yeah it'll come, but how many years?

Howard_Casto · « **Reply #22 on:** October 29, 2004, 09:36:48 pm »

Quote from: Minwah on October 29, 2004, 09:51:07 am

Quote from: SOAPboy on October 29, 2004, 07:35:48 am
why would MvC2 be so "hardcore" to run.. its just a 2d fighter.

Wrong - have you ever played it?? Look at the fully animated high-res 3d backgrounds. That requires a serious amount of CPU power. And to emulate that requires a SERIOUS amount of CPU power. And to emulate that accurately requires a *SERIOUS* amount of CPU power.

So as I said, forget it.

Sorry minwah... but completely and totally false. Chankast (the dreamcast emu) runs marvel vs capcom 2 at full speed assuming you are running xp and have a 2 gig processor. Not exactly unreasonable considering chankast is only 2 versions old. The developers have tested running arcade roms using the chankast engine and although there isn't a public release yet... they report favorable results. Also... those 3d backgrounds aren't all that. While the end result is pretty impressive, it's just a handful of polys and an ultra low res set of textures. Too much for mame yes.... but any hardware accelerated emu would have no problem rendering them.

So as long as you guys understand that mame isn't going to run it anytime soon, a chankast based arcade emulator could run them reasonably soon on a reasonably normal pc.

But for the record.... marvel vs capcom 2 sucks. I have the xbox port and I couldn't be more dissappointed. Some of the character sprites are 15 YEARS old at this point (see morgan) other than memorizing some added mindless combos, this game offers absolutely nothing new in the gameplay department either.

I used to love capcom back in the day, but they need to get with the program and actually try something new. Midway is the best example I can give. They have totally re-invented the mortal kombat franchise from the ground up, with a new fighting engine, a new graphics engine, a new arena engine and most importantly, a game package that doesn't soely concentrate on fighting and just fighting (which gets real old, real fast). The result is mk deception has already hit the 1 million mark, single-handedly saving midway from the virge of bankruptcy. Considering the most popular game out there (gta series) only sold 11 million and it's not an ultra niche genre like a fighting game, it's say that's pretty frikkin amazing.

SOAPboy · « **Reply #23 on:** October 30, 2004, 12:15:54 am »

Quote from: Minwah on October 29, 2004, 09:51:07 am

Quote from: SOAPboy on October 29, 2004, 07:35:48 am
why would MvC2 be so "hardcore" to run.. its just a 2d fighter.

Wrong - have you ever played it?? Look at the fully animated high-res 3d backgrounds. That requires a serious amount of CPU power. And to emulate that requires a SERIOUS amount of CPU power. And to emulate that accurately requires a *SERIOUS* amount of CPU power.

So as I said, forget it.

yes ive played it, own it on xbox.. i just never thought about the backgrounds.. hmm.. there isnt a rom laying about i can tinker with somewhere is there..

*Note im not asking for a link nor site, just the wondering if its floating about*

Minwah · « **Reply #24 on:** October 30, 2004, 11:04:00 am »

Quote from: Howard_Casto on October 29, 2004, 09:36:48 pm

Sorry minwah... but completely and totally false. Chankast (the dreamcast emu)...

Not false. The whole thread has been talking MAME. I presume Chankast using some tricks to get it running that fast, which MAME won't, so I stick with what I said: MAME won't emulate MvC2 (fullspeed) anytime soon.

I like MvC2 tho, on the DC. I agree that some of the sprites could do with updating but it's a fun game all the same.

KHAN · « **Reply #25 on:** October 30, 2004, 06:56:30 pm »

Quote from: Minwah on October 29, 2004, 09:51:07 am

Quote from: SOAPboy on October 29, 2004, 07:35:48 am
why would MvC2 be so "hardcore" to run.. its just a 2d fighter.

Wrong - have you ever played it?? Look at the fully animated high-res 3d backgrounds. That requires a serious amount of CPU power. And to emulate that requires a SERIOUS amount of CPU power. And to emulate that accurately requires a *SERIOUS* amount of CPU power.

So as I said, forget it.

what is cpu power ?

lets see 3D consoles like Playstation.

Playstation 2 is base on pentium 2 300 mhz.
playstation 3 is in underdevelopment will be pentium 3
800 mhz.
other things are RAM and 3D Graphics card.

why Computer processors are not able to produce as much high level 3D graphics while we are trying to make our computer like console.

pointdablame · « **Reply #26 on:** October 30, 2004, 08:08:52 pm »

the playstation 2 is not AT ALL based on a Pentium 2, nor is the PS3 based on a P3. Both sets of chips are completely unique and were created solely for the PS2 and PS3.

I'm not sure where you're getitng your info Khan, but you are incorrect. Simply running at 300mhz or 800mhz does not mean you are dealing with a system based on older CPUs. Plus, both the PS2 and PS3 will have more than one processor on board, so your statement is even further incorrect.

KHAN · « **Reply #27 on:** October 30, 2004, 09:19:29 pm »

Quote from: pointdablame on October 30, 2004, 08:08:52 pm

the playstation 2 is not AT ALL based on a Pentium 2, nor is the PS3 based on a P3. Both sets of chips are completely unique and were created solely for the PS2 and PS3.

I'm not sure where you're getitng your info Khan, but you are incorrect. Simply running at 300mhz or 800mhz does not mean you are dealing with a system based on older CPUs. Plus, both the PS2 and PS3 will have more than one processor on board, so your statement is even further incorrect.

may be it was a grapevine, but i am not sure...
so waiting for someone else who knows all about PS2/3
harware information.

pointdablame · « **Reply #28 on:** October 31, 2004, 01:08:32 am »

IIRC, you are right that the PS2 runs at roughly 300mhz, but you are wrong in saying that that means it is like a P2. It's a completely different structure and utilizes multiple processors, I/O chips, and GPU's. You can't just comapre 300mhz to 300mhz in this case.

As for the PS3, I do not recall what speed the new Cell chip is running at, but it again is nothing like a standard desktop PC CPU. It will again utilize multiple processors and chips, and reportedly be able to draw extra processing power from other Cell chips, thus making its real "speed" dependent on outside sources as well as just what's in the box.

Google "emotion engine" for PS2 specs, and "PS3 Cell" for PS3 info. There's a lot of info out there, and you'll see they are definitely not run of the mill Pentiums.

SOAPboy · « **Reply #29 on:** October 31, 2004, 03:41:50 am »

Quote from: pointdablame on October 31, 2004, 01:08:32 am

IIRC, you are right that the PS2 runs at roughly 300mhz, but you are wrong in saying that that means it is like a P2. It's a completely different structure and utilizes multiple processors, I/O chips, and GPU's. You can't just comapre 300mhz to 300mhz in this case.

As for the PS3, I do not recall what speed the new Cell chip is running at, but it again is nothing like a standard desktop PC CPU. It will again utilize multiple processors and chips, and reportedly be able to draw extra processing power from other Cell chips, thus making its real "speed" dependent on outside sources as well as just what's in the box.

Google "emotion engine" for PS2 specs, and "PS3 Cell" for PS3 info. There's a lot of info out there, and you'll see they are definitely not run of the mill Pentiums.

that and 300mhz on a dedicated single use system is more effificant than emulating it on a 1gig+ system

Minwah · « **Reply #30 on:** October 31, 2004, 08:38:46 am »

Yeah PS2's are nothing like Pentuims afaik. They are 128 bit after all...

tshizzle.com · « **Reply #31 on:** October 31, 2004, 11:14:42 am »

yea it runs at 300mhz , but its ONLY there to produce graphics. Theres no pesky OS to run and suck up resources or anything else. Plus when a developer is coding games for the same exact hardware, it allows them tons of tricks and whatnot to get things running nicely. They dont have to worry about someone having a 800 Celeron and someone having a AMD 64 with 2 gb ram. Its an even playing field. I mean look at GTA San Andreas for christ sake. A 300mhz Pentium couldnt even imagine running that

KHAN · « **Reply #32 on:** October 31, 2004, 04:39:05 pm »

Hmm....

Consoles are the superior programs made by their menufactures.
Computers are not generally equal with consoles but Computers
are a multi-platform console so they will be different in hardware
resources.

normal pc proccessors are 32 BIT and recently 64 bit(AMD)..

Does it mean that even a 3GHZ AMD is less than 300 MHZ PS2 processor?

pointdablame · « **Reply #33 on:** October 31, 2004, 05:11:13 pm »

You're still missing the point entirely. It's not a matter of more or less powerful.

The point is, you just can't compare computers and consoles in a very useful manner. There is no set standard where we can tell you a 300mhz console = xxx mhz computer. You just need to realize that a console is built from the ground up as a game machine. It serves no other purpose. It uses multiple processors, chips, etc etc, and for the most part (xbox aside) rarely resembles a PC.

Even an xbox, which many consider a 733mhz computer in a different case is "faster" than a 733mhz PC. Xbox is only meant to play games, it has no bloat and nothing else slowing it down, so it will seem much faster than a 733mhz computer.

KHAN · « **Reply #34 on:** October 31, 2004, 05:47:03 pm »

ok---- it is clear now...

now again come to the topic 3D mame possible.

I have a version of mame32 which is a Korean built but offcource
an english version.EK-mame32v88 include a folder name PLUGGIN
which is basically contains extra files for 3D games like TEKKEN etc and already present some Cfg files of these 3D games.

It seems good and have better perfomence as compare with mame.
I think mame 9 will be come with such type of enhancements.

go and check it.

www.mamechannel.it

ericball · « **Reply #35 on:** October 31, 2004, 09:42:13 pm »

A P4 or A64 is a general purpose processor. For the most part it executes a single thread of instructions, and the instructions are simple (add two numbers together).

A GPU, especially a 3-D GPU is a dedicated processor. It typically is processing many instructions (or operations) in parallel, and the instructions are much more complex (take the dot product of these two vectors and multiply it by this scalar).

A P4 or A64 has a single multiplier, a 3-D GPU might have 8-20 multipliers.

Silver · « **Reply #36 on:** November 01, 2004, 07:28:24 am »

Yes these modifed mame builds essential bring similar 3D accelerated functionality similar to chankast/Zinc into Mame.

EK-MAME Plus! - [url]http://ekmame.ly.to/ [url]

is a mame hack that allows the use of video/audio plugins from the Psx Emulation Open Source project (P.E.Op.S) - [url]https://sourceforge.net/projects/peops[url]

This uses 3D acc. for PSX hardware based arcade games (eg Tekken). While much faster/looking nicer it is important to note that this is not really Mame emulating these games anymore - I'm guessing they bypass chunks of the mame code completely in order to use the faster 'Less Accurate' plugins. Very appealing if you are just interested inplaying, but misses some of the point of Mame's aims.

Personally I think it would be nice to have optional switches in mame to turn on/off such 3D acceleration hacks, purely in the light of the fact that some games are unlikely to be playable on pc's in for a long time - long after such games would be in arcades etc... But the pure accurate emulation core is also retained. I think this is unlikely however.


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