Making it legal

[slug54]

I have had several requests from people that have used my
MAME cab, To build a machine with asteroids or
frogger or (insert 80's classic game here) and put it at there place of business and collect quarters. Just like a normal arcade machine but maybe with multiple games on it.
I have always declined because of the legal issues with roms.
Lately I've been thinking maybe it wouldn't be terribly expensive to contact the game manufacturers and get a
legal license to a few classic games to run on the cab.

Which brings me to the issue of using MAME in such a product. It appears to be illegal to use the source code without written consent in a commercial product.

Yet It appears that Hanaho is using MAME in their products
does anyone know if they got permission from the MAME team? Does anyone have any idea how much they paid for the rights to use the Capcom games?

I guess my main question is do you think the mame team
would agree to this use if asked?

If not are there any GOOD emulators for classic early 80's
arcade games that may be more open to licensing?

anyone care to throw up a guess on how much a license
for say Atari Asteroids would be?

If anyone has any input on any of these questions
I would like to hear it.

I wouldn't want to do it if it was not 100% legal

                           Thanks for your input
                                     Slug54

[Dave Dribin]

anyone care to throw up a guess on how much a license
for say Atari Asteroids would be?

One thing to consider is to buy a real Asteroids board.  Once you do that, you can legally use the MAME ROM.  Obviously if you're gonna mass produce these, this wouldn't work, but if you're donig a 1-off then just scour e-bay until someone sells a board.

To be honest, I can't believe most of the game company's don't see the market in selling MAME ROMs.  I'm very much against software piracy, but these company's give you no options.  If I could download old ROMs at a couple bucks for a whole bundle of ROMs, I would do it in a hearbeat.  It's basically no work for these companies since the ROMs are already dumped.  They don't have to package them or anything fancy.  Just throw 'em up on a web page and charge for 'em.  Bingo, instant money.   Ah well...

-Dave

[Lilwolf]

Hanaho has given products to a large group of the mame team (or they bought them... I'm not sure)... but they have a good relationship with mame.  

They don't sell mame with the products and roms.  This would be illegal.  And the license for home use only (ie, with their cabinets, you can't use the capcom software in an arcade legally).

It does stink that you can't use mame with legal roms though.  I have a friend who owns an arcade chain... and he wanted me to build a cabinet that he could place inside a full blown board for each game he had in it.  He had a bunch of boards that the cabinet died in.. or he converted them.  So he could put 20-30 boards inside the cabinet (so it was legal rom wise) and mame running on a pc.   But it was still illegal... so he didn't do it.

[SirPoonga]

They don't sell mame with the products and roms.  This would be illegal.  And the license for home use only (ie, with their cabinets, you can't use the capcom software in an arcade legally).

They must have gotten permission form the mame team as the capcom CD that comes with the hotrod has mame32 and capcom games on it.

[Dave_K.]

You can buy the Dreamcast "Atari Anniversary Edition" game which is an emulator plus roms of several classic Atari games(including Asteroids and Asteroids Deluxe).  $14.99 "buy now" on ebay...and you own the roms legally.  There is probably a PC version also (but I haven't seen it yet).

The only thing that SUCKS is that there is no dreamcast mouse support in the emulator!  This would have been perfect for spinner hack to play Tempest.  Lets hope a PS2 verison supports usb mouse.

-Dave

[u_rebelscum]

The only ways to have a money making cab without a chance of being sued or charged are: Ultracade ( http://www.ultracade.com/ ), or build a cab that can switch between PCBs and use working PCBs of those games.

The suggested options (own the PCB but use mame, own atari collection but use mame, own hotrod with capcom rom + mame) can be challeged in most countries (definity in the US), especially if the ROM is used to make money.  The first two can be challenged on the base that you own the roms but only for the original use (ie: only on the PCB, or only on dreamcast/pc/ps system the CD was designed for, & with only the software on that CD).
The last because capcom only licensed the games for home / non-profit use, and says so on the license that comes with the CD.  I don't have the atari, namco or other collection CDs, but I'll bet they have licenses that say for home use only, too.

On the other hand, Ultracade has legal licenses for money-making purposes from the original arcade publisher (that's why it costs more), and the original arcade PCBs were made for making money in arcades, of course.  These are the safe bets.  Ultracade has asteriods, and I've seen others games play on it fine.

BTW, I in no way support, nor agree with, companies sueing an arcade if the arcade has the original PCB, but used mame to run the game instead.  I am just saying that some companies will sue.  I don't know if they will win or are even right, but they have more money than most arcades.  You figure what that means.  Oh, and IANAL ("I Am Not A Lawyer", for those how didn't know).

BTW 2, the 3 methods argued against, above, have a much better chance of holding up with private persons who use the ROM only for personal, non money making, home use.  Plus, as a private person, you don't have as much money for the publisher to sue for, so they should be okay for private home use, but it is not for sure in all countries & states, including the US.

[Dave_K.]

I'll have to check to see what the license/documentation says on the dreamcast roms from I have.  It could say for use only on the dreamcast hardware (intended use) only (which still works with me since that what I use in my cab), but it could also say "not-for-profit" (like you mentioned).

-Dave

[MrArcade]

I would think that if the you put the original game pcb with roms on board...into the cabinet you are vending...it shoud be ok, but to keep the pcb at home and vend the emu cab would probably not be allowed.

Just my opinion...I am not a copyright lawyer...

[Dave_K.]

Now the question is how many rom PCBs can you stuff into a single cabinet running mame  .  I wonder if only the original rom chips is sufficent.

For the curious, the Dreamcast Namco Museum CD has the following two lines: "This game is licensed for home play on the Sega Dreamcast (tm) video game system only. Unauthorized copying, reproduction, rental, public performance of this game is a violation of applicable laws."  
So looks like you can't publically charge for play off these roms (or have the right to play the roms on a PC with Mame).

Now the "Williams Arcade Classics" CD (for the PC) has a long 4 page license/warrenty agreement.  But besides the "you cannot rent" clause, there is no other wording on "home use" or "public performance" or about only with their emulator!  There is one stipulation that says you can only run the rom on a single computer under a Microsoft Operating system.

So go ahead, and run Mame with Robotron/Defender/Stargate/Bubbles/Sinistar/Joust on your cabinet and charge people (as long as you have this CD...$5 on ebay right now)!!  

[Personally this CD is worth it just for the hilarious video interview with Eugine Jarvis (creator of Robotron and Defender/Stargate)! This guy is the bomb!  His description on the inner psyche of a REAL Robotron player is soooooo true!]

-Dave

[slug54]

I'm thinking of writing the mame team and asking for permission to use mame in a commercial product with legally licensed roms. Mame is about preserving these great games. Allowing people who have never heard of MAME play these classics again in public places would be a great thing.I don't think anything would preserve the games better than having a new generation experience them.
                         Slug54

 

[Howard_Casto]

I'm thinking of writing the mame team and asking for permission to use mame in a commercial product with legally licensed roms. Mame is about preserving these great games. Allowing people who have never heard of MAME play these classics again in public places would be a great thing.I don't think anything would preserve the games better than having a new generation experience them.
                         Slug54

 

I'm sorry but this is totally against the spirit of mame and I'm almost sure that the mame team won't agree to it.  If mame becomes commercial in any way then all of these long gone arcade companys will rise from the dead and make lawsuits against mame simply because they know they would win.  The only way mame could be made commercial is if the orignal manufacturers would ask permission personally and even then it would have to be a locked build that only played those games.  

Mame is non-profit!  Why is it that everyone save the orignal programmers want to try to make a buck off of it?  Nicoli must get pissed a lot about this stuff.  

[Dave_K.]

Mame is non-profit!  Why is it that everyone save the orignal programmers want to try to make a buck off of it?  Nicoli must get pissed a lot about this stuff.  

Obviously you never herd of the BSD license. There is nothing wrong with trying to make money off free software (this is why we have Mac OS X today).  Mame's license reads more like Open Source.  You can't profit off Mame by selling/modifying the software (and all derivatives work need to have source available).  But, there is NO wording on the USE of the software for profit.  I do agree though that it violates the "spirit" of the project.

-Dave

[SirPoonga]

Technically, you are right, but it does go against the spirit of mame.  Unless the binary is considered part of the source code, which is shouldn;t.


VI. Reuse of Source Code
--------------------------
  This chapter might not apply to specific portions of MAME (e.g. CPU
  emulators) which bear different copyright notices.
  The source code cannot be used in a commercial product without the written
  authorization of the authors. Use in non-commercial products is allowed, and
  indeed encouraged.  If you use portions of the MAME source code in your
  program, however, you must make the full source code freely available as
  well.
  Usage of the _information_ contained in the source code is free for any use.
  However, given the amount of time and energy it took to collect this
  information, if you find new information we would appreciate if you made it
  freely available as well.

[Howard_Casto]

Copyright aside.. this is what is going to happen if someone in the US makes a mame cab and puts it in a fairly prominent place and charges for it.  

#1 Eventually other people will start doing it think that they can get around it.  

#2 Sometime later one of the members of one of the development teams for an arcade game will spot one of these cabs and catch on.  

#3 He/She will contact teh head of their company to investigate.  

#4 Said company will file a major suit on not only the manufacturer of the cabs but of the software itself (eg mame).

#5 Eventually they will win both wars as technically the file swapping of roms is similar to the napster controversy.  Although mame itself won't be considered illegal, any distribution of roms will be and they will shut down any prominent site that even referes to roms making the mame dev's job a lot harder.  

#6  Pressure will be put on all emulator devs to shutdown their projects by the much richer, more powerful game companys.

#7  Although some of the more obscure emulators may survive, the most prominent (mame) will surely be shutdown.  

#8 Mame is dead and the current binary becomes the last one, at least in the fast, multiple developer sense, like it is now.


So if these cabs leak into the US in any noticable amount it will end with the death of emulation in a matter of a few years.  And trust me, we have a great thing here, lets not screw it up.  

If this does come to pass I will personally beat the crap out of whoever led to mame's downfall.  And yes that is a threat.. what out I'm a wirey SOB.

[Dave_K.]

If there is going to be a death of Mame in the future, its certainly not going to be from some individual (or manufacturer) trying to make money off it.  But from low down dirty software pirates who think its their god given right to collect/share/play every rom they can get their grubby little hands on.  This is worse than an individual (or manufacturer) using Mame with legal/licensed roms in a commercially built cabinet for profit.

so who you going to beat up now?  

-Dave

[Howard_Casto]

Sorry, that's complete and total bs.  A lot of people don't realize this but the record industry didn't pay any attention to napster until it announced that they had plans to start a subscription service in the near future.  In other words although piracy goes on for all software every day, the companies don't become aggressive about it until someone starts making money off of it. Example #2... back in m$'s early days piracy wasn't a big concern.  They only started to crack down recently, when it became apparent that US citizens were selling burned copys of windows.  

You see maybe you don't understand the concept of marketing but companys don't care if you steal a product that they cant' make money off of.  I'm not saying that it doesn't piss them off or that they don't try to stop it in a passive way, I'm just saying that they realize that it's not cost effective to put money into stopping the piracy of a long dead product.  

ONLY when they find out that there is still money to be made do they crack down.  This makes sense because they think "Hey not only can I win this lawsuit but I can purchase the same technology and make money off of our products again."

So you see mame will never be on the verge of being shutdown as long as it's kept completely and totally non-profit.

As for software piracy, mame roms and pirated software are NOT the same.  As a matter of fact rom images are still in the grey area of legality.  I personally don't care for the current legislation and therefore I ignore it.  I keep roms to preserve them, not so that I can play every game out there.  Yes I do play some of the games if that's what your asking, and I feel no guilt what-so-ever over it.  The games I play regularly are long dead and are from companys that are very tolerant towards emulation like capcom.  (For those of you that are following the idsa issues over at cps2shock, it has NOTHING to do with capcom, rather a third-party company who bought some liscensing rights to alien vs predator.)  

[SirPoonga]

To further support HC's point, look at Sony and Bleem.  Of course psx games were being sold at the same time bleam was made so it is slightly different, but it is still all aobut money.  That's all a  company is about, making money to pay salaries and make the upper management rich.

If they weren't worried aout making money and just wanted to immprove human existance with some product they would make it open source (or open hardware like pfranc.com, I love pfranc.com!!  Yes, I own a GPS).

I wish more companies were like capcom, they realize they have fans, they realize right now some of their older games they aren't making money off of, so as long as no one else makes money off of it they are fine with you using it.

If you really want to make money off of a multiple arcade machine, use ultracade.  There are advantages to that, read their site.  You get technical support which is a biggie for making money....

[Dave_K.]

Looks like I hit a hot button  

Sorry, that's complete and total bs.  A lot of people don't realize this but the record industry didn't pay any attention to napster until it announced that they had plans to start a subscription service in the near future.

Hello?  Remember Metallica's lawsuit which started everything???  It wasn't because Napster was going to "profit" from anything...Metallica was pissed people were stealing their songs instead of buying their CDs period.

You see maybe you don't understand the concept of marketing but companys don't care if you steal a product that they cant' make money off of.  I'm not saying that it doesn't piss them off or that they don't try to stop it in a passive way, I'm just saying that they realize that it's not cost effective to put money into stopping the piracy of a long dead product.

Just because it isn't cost effective for large companies to sue every Joe Pirate doesn't make it legal or right.  If they could, they would to protect their assets (and probably will in the near future if M$ gets its way with the palladium platform).

As for software piracy, mame roms and pirated software are NOT the same.  As a matter of fact rom images are still in the grey area of legality.  I personally don't care for the current legislation and therefore I ignore it.  I keep roms to preserve them, not so that I can play every game out there.  Yes I do play some of the games if that's what your asking, and I feel no guilt what-so-ever over it.

Whatever you tell yourself to make you not feel guilty about stealing is fine with me.  Its a personal moral decision.  But the fact is its still illegal, and is also against the Mame license (from section III) "make it clear that users must not download ROMs unless
   they are legally entitled to do so."

The games I play regularly are long dead and are from companys that are very tolerant towards emulation like capcom.

Believe it or not, but software companies are indeed still making money off their old roms, and are doing it with *gasp* commercial emulators that have a license to do so.

-Dave

[Dave_K.]

I wish more companies were like capcom, they realize they have fans, they realize right now some of their older games they aren't making money off of, so as long as no one else makes money off of it they are fine with you using it.

But Capcom could legally change their position at any time.  If they thought for a second, that they could make a profit off releasing legally emulated versions of their games, they will instantly see these people using/trading the roms illegally as targets since it could have been money in their pockets.   Yeah its probably not going to happen, but its a risk you the user are going to take since its still technically illegal.

Why don't people just admit it?  They obviously don't have any guilt about it  

-Dave

[SirPoonga]

Capcom has thought about that I'm sure.  They do say they have the right to do just that.  Which means they should give a warning first, if you don't stop then they probably would take action.

[Dave_K.]

I'm sure they (Capcom) would give warning first (as to not totally piss off their gaming audience).  But if what you say is true, its still not a great thing that they are condoning piracy.

If they REALLY felt like that and wanted people to keep playing their old roms (as some sort of marketing), then they could release the roms under a new free license agreement.  Thats what we should really be pushing for.

-Dave

[JMDickson]

  I was part of mamedev during the hotrod deal with Hanaho.  Even members of mamedev have radically different views on this. Most of the members were fine with the idea as long as Capcom came through with the licenses.  Remember, they were giving away custom compiles of MAME with a link to www.mame.net, along with their product and a license for the included roms.
 Originally they toyed with the idea of giving mamedev hotrods (i think it was 10 for 50+ members) and a discount for more, but that may have been construed as using MAME for a profit, so in the end, no hotrods .  Hanaho wanted a signed agreement, but after a debate we decided that left the team 'too exposed,' so they just got permission instead.
 As for for-profit use, as long as you have permission from the license holders, try writing mamedev.  
 BTW, Hanano had a 2 year agreement for distribution from Capcom.  I don't know if that is to be renewed, but I believe that time is almost (if not already) up.

[Trenchbroom]

Twice in the past year I was deadlocked between buying two games for the PS2.  Both times one game was made by Capcom and one by a competing company.  That Capcom provides quality content across the board AND that they have taken such a friendly stance with emulation caused me to purchase their games over others.  That's $100 more in their coffers.  Glad to support them anytime!

[Howard_Casto]

Reagarding dave's graveous misconceptions:

Yes I remember the metallica lawsuit.  Metallica may have gotten the limelight but they were contacted by the record companys about the upcoming lawsuit.  Besides to metallica this is money stolen from them.  And thus, that proves my point that they don't care until money is involved.  

Reagarding your piracy issues, fi you are a boyscout that's fine, but you totally side stepped my point just to make another unrealated point.  The point is mame will only be in danger when people start making money off of it.  

Apparently by the statements about hanho from the other posters the mame dev team sort of agrees with me.  Which is what I said, so once again a point to prove how right I am in this view.


I am well aware of the mame liscense.  I find it laughable that you think that the mame team doesn't intend for you to use roms unless they are legally owned.  They put that part in for legal reasons... basically to save their own a$$es, which I both respect and am totally behind.  Then again they didn't make it with the malicious intent to give warez pups a tool to steal and play rom with.  There is a grey area there, just like there is with roms. It isn't specifically illegal or legal the laws written regarding it are too vague.  But if it were to go to court I'm pretty sure who the 60 yr old judge who thinks video games rot your brains is gonna rule in favor of.  That's why we've got to be careful.  I object to the current laws, they are wrong.  Disney used public domain to make their empire, but now due to current laws Disney can infinately renew it's copyright on all things Disney inclulding those stories which means that another upstart company cannot do teh same thing they did by making a generalized parody of thier more popular movies simply because they weren't written several hundred years ago.  If you don't see a problem with that then more power to you, but I do.  Abandonware is the same way.  I'm not sure if you should be legally entitled to keep a game forever if your not going to use it.  Now if you are that's one thing, but even then there needs to be a more finite time.

Software company's do NOT use emulators to resell classic games.  They own the roms and have the source code.  They port the games... big difference.   I have only seen one exception and that is capcom.  They have started a program to sell classic two button games for use on the plam in their original condition.  Those guys are so great they even give you 2 for free to try.  You have to love capcom, they truely are a rolemodel of what a honorable gaming company should be.  Unlike others.... (cough cough acclaim,  cough cough midway)  And people buy them because they have found a special niche in the palm market and yet capcom still hasn't cracked down on the emulation of the very same games.  

[Dave_K.]

Howard, I totally agree with you on the money issue.   But your previous post said record companies didn't care about napster until they started planning some subscription service.  My point was they always cared because when someone illegally copies licensed material money is being lost.  So its always a money issue.  Wether its a song on napster Metallica is pissed off about, or a rom for mame.  Yes they still make money off these roms!!  What do you think the Williams Classic CD for the PC is?  Its Digital Eclispe's emulator used to play the original williams roms.  They tell you this in documentation.  They also use the digital eclipse emulator for all the Midway classics CDs.  If you had done the slightest amount of research (or steped out of the Mame world for a second) you would have known this.

So by using these roms illegally, you are taking away potential revenue from these companies.  Plain and simple.  There are ways to play these roms legally.  There are ways to use Mame legally.  This is what the Mame team intended (and they do not think this is a laughable issue just because "everyone else does it").  Why do you think mame.dk got shut down?

-Dave

[Howard_Casto]

So by using these roms illegally, you are taking away potential revenue from these companies.  Plain and simple.  There are ways to play these roms legally.  There are ways to use Mame legally.  This is what the Mame team intended (and they do not think this is a laughable issue just because "everyone else does it").  Why do you think mame.dk got shut down?

-Dave

The digital eclipse emulator is a game engine, not a true emulator.  They call it that for marketing reasons.  I don't play any of the williams classics so I'm not stealing money from anyone.  Although I appreciate the classics the only two that I play regularly are asteriods and pacman.  Mame.dk got shut down because acclaim said they would sue if they didn't.  Acclaim is very aggressive about emulators they take the WRONG attitude.  The games they complained about hadn't been produced in over 6 years.  They were dead games.  Legally as we stand now they had every right to do so, but that still doesn't make it the right thing to do.  I just love guys like you.  You blindly follow any law like it's the gosphel.  Our legal system has flaws, some laws are right, that's just the way it is.  

I'll ignore the laughable comment.  You have a bad case of selective reading.  I explained very well what I meant about this and you took it out of context yet again.      

[Magnet_Eye]

The answer is DON'T use MAME. Create your own emulator and you have no problems. I am sure this is what Ultracade did (built their own emu) for their cabinets.

[Dave_K.]

The digital eclipse emulator is a game engine, not a true emulator.  They call it that for marketing reasons.  I don't play any of the williams classics so I'm not stealing money from anyone.  Although I appreciate the classics the only two that I play regularly are asteriods and pacman.

Let me quote Digital Eclipse's documentation: "Technology and computer speeds have finally gotten to the point where your machine can, through software, fully emulate the original Williams hardware - right down to the code level for the motorola 6809 processor that powered the best early titles.  What does this mean to you?  It means that through the magic of Digital Arcade, your computer actually becomes these coin-snatchers that were loved by millions.  You get the exact code that runs those rare units that these days are found only in homes of rabid collectors of arcade history.  You get the exact sounds, graphics, and yes, even the bugs and nuances that made these games smash-hits.  You see, we've tricked the original code into believing that it's running in the original cabinet."

Its an emulator in every sense of the word.  They even allow access to the original game setting menus (just like mame).  If you go to Digital Eclipse's website, you will see all the game CDs they produce for consoles and PCs (for Williams, Atari, and Midway).  Namco's Hometek division chose to create their own emulator in house for their Namco classic CDs.  

Howard, I'm sorry if it seems like I'm taking your comments out of context.  I'm not pointing specific blame at you...just at part of the Mame community in general.  It has gotten out of hand (and what greedy little hands they are).  Its like self brainwashing where people won't even listen or look around to see that yes there are other emulators out there with offical licenses to play these roms.  Just because Mame is free people think its their right to play these games or something (or cloak it under the "for preservation purposes I download these roms").

What I will fault you for is the BS you shovel around here saying things like there are no consumer emulators available or that these roms don't generate revenue.  You are plain wrong.

As for the legal system, I know it has faults, and I'm no saint either, but I'm going to try to follow the law as best I can out of respect for the original game developers.

-Dave

[Dave_K.]

The answer is DON'T use MAME. Create your own emulator and you have no problems. I am sure this is what Ultracade did (built their own emu) for their cabinets.

Creating your own emulator doesn't make it any more legal to play roms on it which you don't own.  Ultracade licensed the roms and thats what made it legal.  If you want to create your own emulator, get licenses for games, and package it up for sale, you are free to do so.  This is exactly what Digital Eclipse has done (for PC and Consoles).

-Dave

[nullb0y]

i have a great idea program your own games and fresource them then pout them in a cab yeah that could work!

[Howard_Casto]

You see the problem is there aren't any consumer emulators readily available.  Ultracade was made with help by williams.... in other words no real reverse engineering was made.  They used the source, not the rom images to make an "emulator" based on how it contacted the orignal hardware.  Technically it's an emulator, but not in my book.  

And the williams classics cd's were only a modest success.  The only reason they made so many is because they didn't have to put any real money into it as the games were already made.  This is why williams themselves didn't make the classics packs in leu of liscensing them out to other companys to do.  Williams didn't think it was worth the effort.  They were probably right, considering they now own the rights to the popular mortal kombat franchise.  Why would they bother squeezing the last few pennies out of 20 year old games when people are still buying mk4 and mkgold for the arcades?

Yeah you can get a couple of bucks out of it, but nothing substancial enough to merit a multi billion dollar anti piracy campaing to protect these roms.  It's not bs, I am the unofficial emulator guru.  I've tried everything from the original tmnt emulator that eventually got into mame, to shark, retrocade, ect.  I had to do this because I write a mult-emu fe and besides taht I ran all of the faster emus back in teh day.   The thing is with all due respect to the authors  mame is the only one worth mentioning when it comes to high profile issues.  This is because nothing is more popular than mame and nothing can emulate games better than mame.  (A few can emulate as good but that's about it.)  Do you think that if mame becomes outlawed that smaller emus like raine and retrocade will dissappear.  Heck no, those are small potatoes, they have to do like they did napster and kill the big dogs. If you notice kazaa is still around today, which is based on the same napster technology.  But kazaa isn't nearly as good as the old napster.  

[1UP]

I have to totally agree with Howard for once (dammit!   )  There have always been grey areas in the laws as long as software has existed.  And that goes for almost all media, where you're not really stealing anything PHYSICAL, just copying information.  (I could go down to a newspaper machine every morning and copy the cover story onto a notepad for my own use, and no one could stop me.)  And for many forms of media, there IS such thing as "fair use" that allows you to make personal copies of printed materials without consequence.

People were making copies of records ever since the first home reel-to-reel recorders.  As soon as VCRs came out, people were copying movies from rentals or cable TV.  I've been using copied software ever since I got my C64.  None of the people doing this have ever been busted for it, except those making money off it, or those distributing free copies in mass quantities, and those uses are CLEARLY wrong.

But for the most part it's like speeding on the freeway.  The game company is the cop and the MAMErs are just going along with the flow of traffic.   Yeah, you could get pulled over, but as long as everyone else is going 75 too, you're not hurting anyone, and you're not going to get stopped unless you do something REALLY stupid to stand out from the crowd.  Like charging to play free games you don't own the rights to...

The game companies have certain rights, but they are unlikely to enforce them when some 80's kid is just downloading a handful of dead games for home use.  I for one would not waste my money on ports of old games for the PC, because they are usually very poorly done.  The publishers seem more interested in making crappy 3D updates of the 80's classics rather than faithfully capturing the magic of the originals.  I have actually bought some of these "collection" CDs, only to find that they only run on older versions of Windows, or they just wouldn't work with my machine period and were completely useless.  And since you can't return opened software, I have many $10 coasters on my desk...  I gave the copyright holders the chance, but they blew it, and I will never spend one dime on 80's arcade software again.  Besides, I already gave them every cent I ever earned as a kid...  

As to the original issue of making a pay-for-play Mame machine for a workplace lobby: remember, this is a HOBBY.  I'll go on playing emulators until the day I die, but out of respect for the copyright owners (and for the sake of my own hide) I would never charge anyone to use my home machine, let alone set one up for profit in a public venue.  The coin door is just for authenticity.  My guests get a bottomless cup of tokens, free of charge.  I'm doing this for my own enjoyment, to capture some of the fun of my youth, and to hopefully pass the enjoyment of these games on to the next generation.

As soon PDAs and cell phones can handle even more advanced games, and the aging 80's kids are no longer a prime market demographic, these games will surely die out completely, and will eventually exist only as an archaic curiosity on some newsgroup somewhere.  I have considered building a machine for my own workplace because all the boys from work had a blast on my home cab.  But if I did, there wouldn't even BE a coin door, and it would just be something for us 80's geeks to pass the time in the break room while we wait for renders.  Peace out.

[Dave_K.]

You see the problem is there aren't any consumer emulators readily available.  Ultracade was made with help by williams.... in other words no real reverse engineering was made.  They used the source, not the rom images to make an "emulator" based on how it contacted the orignal hardware.  Technically it's an emulator, but not in my book.  

I'm really surprised how you seem to know exactly how these emulators were produced (being an unoffical emulator guru and all).  Now this may come as a shock to you, but these games were written in assembler for the 6809.  The roms ARE the source my friend.   You may want to update that book of yours .  Williams is not going to "help" DE write their emulator, they don't care...they just want to sell the license to their games like you said and not bother with in house development.  DE's emulator was written the same as Mame, from the hardware standpoint.  When you start the game, the emulated hardware is initialized and you get the same "carpet sweeps" as the roms are checksumed just like in mame.  Just admit it, its a consumer emulator bundled with licensed games.

Anyway, enough beating this dead horse.  The point of this thread was asking how to make playing (and possibly collecting money) for these games legal.  DE's emulator is a cheap solution.  Ultracade is an expensive solution.  As long as you legally own the correct license for the game, you can use mame to make money off it in a cabinet.  One option is owning the pcb boards, I'm telling people to look at DE's licenses closely as I believe they can also be used for profit.

Howard when it comes to FEs and things Mame you are the king.  You have contributed a great deal to the cause  (and I totally respect that).  Please don't get mad at me if you happen to be wrong on some of the finer details of emulators or licensing.  Your opinon is most valued, but defending an assumtion you aren't sure about it just not productive in a community like BYOAC.

-Dave

[Dave_K.]

I have to totally agree with Howard for once (dammit!   )  There have always been grey areas in the laws as long as software has existed.

I also agree with both of you that the current copyright laws suck.  Wether or not you break them is your own moral desicion (like driving 75 on the freeway in your example).  You are taking the risk (no matter how small you think it is).  But for those people who want to cover their --I'm attempting to get by the auto-censor and should be beaten after I re-read the rules-- (for one reason or another) there are solutions.  And that was the question asked which started this thread.  If someone has a legal license to play a rom, they can do so on a mame machine for profit.  Yes it goes against the "spirit" of mame, but the mame license does not forbid it.  I personally wouldn't charge people either.

If the PC classics CD you bought was the Digital Eclipse emulator (and not a game port as Howard likes to point out), then go to their website as they have patches which allow even their oldest CDs be installed under win2000 and XP.  Even if they didn't run anymore, you now have a legal license to play these roms...so those costers are still worth something.

-Dave

[1UP]

BTW, people keep saying "put original PCBs in the cab" as a form of license for using Mame.  Well, I might be missing something, but if you have original PCBs, why don't you use THEM to play the games!?    Then it would be legal.  Just get a J-pac, a monitor, some buttons, and put a real game in there.  There has to be a way to switch between several boards, too, or maybe once a week someone could manually connect a different game.  We're getting spoiled with Mame here, I'd be more impressed to walk into a place and see an old Asteroids board running in a new or repro cab!  

[1UP]

BTW, I don't know if legally having a licensed CD or even a PCB entitles you so run the same game in another form, or on a machine it was not intended for.  If you got in trouble, you might get them to leave you alone if you can say, "but look, I have a licensed CD!"  But it's like having a licensed version of Windows, but putting it on the shelf and running a cracked version...    Or actually, it's more like buying a copy of Quicktime Pro for the Mac (even though you don't own a Mac), and running a cracked version on PC. They might leave you alone since you are only running one copy, and you have exactly one license, but what's the point?

Also, I haven't read the license for the arcade CDs you're referring to, but I'm willing to bet that somewhere in there it says something like "for individual home use only, not to be leased, rented, or played in public".  Most home videos have fine print to this effect, although most people don't realize you can't just rent "Revenge of the Nerds" and play it in an auditorium...

[Dave_K.]

Also, I haven't read the license for the arcade CDs you're referring to, but I'm willing to bet that somewhere in there it says something like "for individual home use only, not to be leased, rented, or played in public".  Most home videos have fine print to this effect, although most people don't realize you can't just rent "Revenge of the Nerds" and play it in an auditorium...

If you look back through my posts in this thread you will see that I already went down this path, and compared the licenses for the Namco classics CD for Dreamcast, and the Williams classics CD for PC.  The Dreamcast version has explicit "for use on Sega Dreamcast", "for home use only" and "no public performance".  The Williams CD (which has a 4 page license/warrenty) doesn't have doesn't have either.  Its a boiler plate license with a stipulation that the software be used on a single computer with Microsoft Operating system products.

Maybe its the fact that this was the first game CD digital eclipse put out (they may have updated the license for their other game packs).  If anyone else has these CDs, please take a look.

<mod> Ah, there is wording in the williams one that says not for rent or lease...could playing a game for a quarter be considered renting   </mod>

-Dave

[Howard_Casto]

You see the problem is there aren't any consumer emulators readily available.  Ultracade was made with help by williams.... in other words no real reverse engineering was made.  They used the source, not the rom images to make an "emulator" based on how it contacted the orignal hardware.  Technically it's an emulator, but not in my book.  

I'm really surprised how you seem to know exactly how these emulators were produced (being an unoffical emulator guru and all).  Now this may come as a shock to you, but these games were written in assembler for the 6809.  The roms ARE the source my friend.   You may want to update that book of yours .  Williams is not going to "help" DE write their emulator, they don't care...they just want to sell the license to their games like you said and not bother with in house development.  DE's emulator was written the same as Mame, from the hardware standpoint.  When you start the game, the emulated hardware is initialized and you get the same "carpet sweeps" as the roms are checksumed just like in mame.  Just admit it, its a consumer emulator bundled with licensed games.

Your only half right.  I thought it was a given that the roms weren't in C or anything like that.  (This was the 70's/80's come on how dumb do you think I am)   What I meant was they gave them access to the roms and how they interacted with the hardware.  In other words hey said... "Ok here is the chip we used for board a and this is how we did it."  and "This call activates XX function on this chip which outputted X."  Williams did help them in small ways like that to develop the emulator. I know this because I remember when these classics cd's were brand new and there was a big article about it.
(Forgive me but my memory isn't THAT good... I can't point you to it.)


Now I can understand why you think I'm full of it, but the truth is I'm not.  I am pulling all of this from memory. I can tell you the origins from most if not all emulators from memory.  Now mind you I can get a detail off once in a while but in the general sense my data is always correct.  Now if you can find anyone else that remembers all of this stuff off of the top of their head you let me know because I have some stories to swap.    

But anyway, I'm done, no more arguments form me.  

for the record... The classics pack cd liscenses were changed after the first cd in fear of just what you were suggesting.  I'm not sure if it is on there, but on many software liscenses it says "for lease only, lease liscense can be changed at any time without notice."  In other words... you ldon't own it so you can't make money off of it in any way.  Unfortunately this is how all software is, so unless they come out with emulation software that is specifially written and sold with the intent of it being put on an arcade machine it will never be legal.  Btw for the record.... unfortunately even if you own the pcb you are NOT legally entitled to play an emulated game.  This is know as a "free use" copy.  Unfortunately the record industry made sure that a "free use" copy isn't legal anymore.... blame the napster case, because it used to be that it was.  Getting permission in some way by the company itself is the only legal way to do it.

So something to think about.... even you guys that own the pcbs are technically still playing the games illegally if you use mame.  If that isn't a sign that the laws are totally screwed up then I don't know what is.

Anyway... the purpose of me continuing this discussion wasn't to prove I was right or anyting silly like that.. it was to prove just how complex what you are asking is.  (Sorry, I got side-tracked)  It's not simply... "but if I do this then..."  there isn't a legal way to run a commercial cabinet with emulators yet.  Simply put, period, none, nadda, zip, zilch.  If a new emulator were to come out specifially for that purpose with liscensed copys of the roms gotten by the copyright holders then there would be, but there isn't now.  Also mame is NOT the answer.  Stay away from mame, don't screw it up, don't get lawyers down it's back.  Leave it alone.... it isn't well suited for such a purpose anyway... a new emulator would have to be written.  If this speical purpose emulator were based on mame then it would be too easy to hack in more games and thus the lawyers would be on mame's case anyway.  

It has to be original, with the specific purpose of playing games on a commercial arcade cab, only capable of playing the liscensed games and without released source code to not be harmful to the emulation community.  Hopefully everyone can agree on that because if you don't then someone is gonna try it and we'll all be screwed in the process.

I'm poining this out for the good of the community.  I urge you all to heed my warnings and do the right thing.

   

[BombProofPlane]

notice those midway games that are in flash are actually emulated and using the roms what does that mean???

im pretty sure there emulated cause it asks you to download an emulator for flash

either way they are sending out the actual roms for free im confused does that mean spy hunter is free???

[)p(]

notice those midway games that are in flash are actually emulated and using the roms what does that mean???

im pretty sure there emulated cause it asks you to download an emulator for flash

either way they are sending out the actual roms for free im confused does that mean spy hunter is free???

actually they use shockwave but that is besides the point...

the rom gets directly loaded in to ram from what i can see it is not stored on your hd. The only thing it stores on your hd is the emulator in director xtra's (which are just dll's).
they most likely only liscensed the rom for thids purpose being played online within the app...


peter