firefox and windows update

[DYNAGOD]

ever since i loaded up firefox and set it as my default browser MS Internet explorer no longer works. and naturally being the criminals that they are, MS only allows windows to be updated via their monopolous internet explorer virus..
how the hell am i supposed to get all their mistake band aids without their broken,security flawed browser?

[namzep]

I'm guessing that you've already tried setting IE as your primary browser again.     I also wonder if maybe you could browse to like update.microsoft.com (or whatever the address is) and update from there? 

[DYNAGOD]

nope tried it...
this is clear violation of their antitrust case..
opening up the avenues for comeition ---my bottom---..

[SuperGodX1]

You can still use automatic updates...just set it to not install anything automatically.  I'm not sure why IE won't work...I have FF as the default on my machine, but Windows Updates still works fine through IE.

[AmericanDemon]

Everything works for myself in IE.  I currently use Firefox as my main browser

[Sasquatch!]

ever since i loaded up firefox and set it as my default browser MS Internet explorer no longer works. and naturally being the criminals that they are, MS only allows windows to be updated via their monopolous internet explorer virus..
how the hell am i supposed to get all their mistake band aids without their broken,security flawed browser?

Dude, take the tinfoil fat off.  Seriously, rants like "naturally being the criminals that they are" really make people look like fools.  That and the ubiquitous spelling of it as "MICRO$OFT" or some other kind of rubbish.

That said, you're having some kind of problem on your machine.  Firefox is my default browser and Windows Update works fine.  This is not some crazy "MIKKKRO$OFT" conspiracy against you.

[DYNAGOD]

ever since i loaded up firefox and set it as my default browser MS Internet explorer no longer works. and naturally being the criminals that they are, MS only allows windows to be updated via their monopolous internet explorer virus..
how the hell am i supposed to get all their mistake band aids without their broken,security flawed browser?

Dude, take the tinfoil fat off.  Seriously, rants like "naturally being the criminals that they are" really make people look like fools.  That and the ubiquitous spelling of it as "MICRO$OFT" or some other kind of rubbish.

That said, you're having some kind of problem on your machine.  Firefox is my default browser and Windows Update works fine.  This is not some crazy "MIKKKRO$OFT" conspiracy against you.

and you need to take you legion of doom hat off..
why do i need microsofts web browser to download an update for my operation system? you CANNOT update windows with firefox as your default browser..
I inadvertently crippled IE and dont have a functional version on my machine.Besides,I DIDNT WANT IT,and i sure as hell dont need its spyware amplification technology..
is it a problem with MY machine that microsoft has crippled their update service for users whom choose not to use their  browser?
NO
IF YOU DONT HAVE ANYTHING CONSTRUCTIVE TO OFFER
THEN WHY DONT YOU GET THE <auto-censored> OUTTA MY FACE...IM SICK OF NARROW MINDED LOYALISTLS LIKE YOU STARTIN <auto-censored> WITH ME IN MY THREADS>>
if you disagree, then dont post here...

wipe the brown off your nose while you at it..your not gonna get a free version of longhorn for kissing bills ass

[Sasquatch!]

and you need to take you legion of doom hat off..

My what??

why do i need microsofts web browser to download an update for my operation system? you CANNOT update windows with firefox as your default browser..

Yes, you can.  Multiple people in this thread - myself included - have said that they're using Firefox as their default browser and Windows Update works fine.  Like I said before, something is either broken or misconfigured on your computer, but the fact remains that Windows Update does work when you have Firefox as your default browser.  I know it kind of puts a damper on your anti-MICRO$OFT conspiracy theory that they're keeping your from using Windows Update, but that's simply not the case.

I inadvertently crippled IE and dont have a functional version on my machine.Besides,I DIDNT WANT IT,and i sure as hell dont need its spyware amplification technology..

I think herein lies the key, my friend.  You intentionally "broke" IE.  And now you're angry that a program that you intentionally broke doesn't work.  I fail to see how this is anyone's fault but your own.

is it a problem with MY machine that microsoft has crippled their update service for users whom choose not to use their  browser?
NO

No, dude - the problem isn't that "microsoft has crippled their update service for users whom choose not to use their browser", because once again - Windows Update DOES work even if you have Firefox as your default browser.  Microsoft didn't "cripple" anything, YOU crippled IE, and you broke it, and now you're trying to blame the EVIL MICRO$OFT for it.  Good job.

IF YOU DONT HAVE ANYTHING CONSTRUCTIVE TO OFFER
THEN WHY DONT YOU GET THE <auto-censored> OUTTA MY FACE...IM SICK OF NARROW MINDED LOYALISTLS LIKE YOU STARTIN <auto-censored> WITH ME IN MY THREADS>>
if you disagree, then dont post here...

Get a clue, Junior.  I'm not a "loyalist" whatsoever; in fact, I'm eagerly waiting for my new iBook to hopefully arrive this coming week.    And I am offering something constructive to your thread: I'm telling you what's wrong with your computer...namely, I'm telling you that YOU broke it.  The entire premise of this thread is WRONG, because - again - YOU broke your IE...Microsoft isn't denying you ANYTHING.  What do you expect me to say?  Am I not supposed to correct you?  I find it utterly perplexing that your stance is (your words here) "if you disagree, then dont post here".  Even if you're wrong?  What kind of an example of discourse is THAT?

wipe the brown off your nose while you at it..your not gonna get a free version of longhorn for kissing bills ass

Name calling - that's real nice.  Here's a tip for you: Just because I pointed out that you're INCORRECTLY frothing at the mouth over a FALSE "conspiracy" against you when the real cause is that you don't know how to use your computer doesn't make me a "brown-nosing kiss ass".  Drop the strawman arguements and cook up a real arguement, kid.

[Sasquatch!]

And just to try to bring this thread back to being civil, can you tell me how exactly you "inadvertently crippled IE and dont have a functional version on my machine"?  I might be able to tell you how to fix it.  That would solve this entire problem, would it not?

[shadowdrak]

Well, microsoft's official position is that you can download all of their updates manually from their download page(which is true)...  There is no technical reason for microsoft to disallow using other browsers for updates though, So I sympathize somewhat.  Firefox doesn't mess with IE at all, so I dunno what got bugger'd up.
As for IE being a spyware magnet, that is really only with the default settings, disable 3rd party browser extentions and install on demand and it eliminates a lot of the common vectors for malware installation.  I weened myself off of IE because I found it to be very unstable, personally.  Actually as of about 6 months ago, I don't use windows at all except for gaming.  I don't really think there is a microsoft conspiracy, they are just taking advantage of their almost monopoly position;  The endless bug/update cycle is part of their bussiness strategy. Sorry about that, seems kinda "ranty" now that I read it back.

[Sasquatch!]

Well, microsoft's official position is that you can download all of their updates manually from their download page(which is true)...  There is no technical reason for microsoft to disallow using other browsers for updates though

The reason is exactly a "technical" one though: Windows Update uses ActiveX, and IE is the only browser that implements it.  The lack of ActiveX implementation is exactly why Firefox is a much more secure browser to use, but it's needed for Windows Update.  So the reason isn't some kind of marketing ploy; it actually is "technical".

[shadowdrak]

So microsoft exclusively using an entirely proprietary technology that they control is not a marketing ploy?

[Sasquatch!]

So microsoft exclusively using an entirely proprietary technology that they control is not a marketing ploy?  I know for a fact though that there is an activeX plugin for mozilla (Don't know how well it works if it does at all);  You can download it from their website.  The point is rather moot though, because even if mozilla were to support activex to the letter, Microsoft would still disallow mozilla from windowsupdate, citing security concerns or something similar.  Granted though, that its activex support would be in it's infancy at best.  I am probably just so fed up with microsoft that I am inventing things(I wouldn't put it past em though).

You can't automatically update programs like pcAnywhere without using the Symantec LiveUpdate, right?  Same thing, at least as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, using Windows Update forces you do to it via IE (I'm pretty damn sure that it does a user agent check on the browser, so that would disqualify even Mozilla's ActiveX implementation...you HAVE to use IE for it).  Believe me, I'm not a fan of IE at all, but from a purely technical (and not a marketing) standpoint, I can see where it makes sense: If I was going to push down something as comprehensive as operating system updates, I'd want to make sure that I had control over how it happened too.  Their marketing is shady, but the Windows Update / IE thing does make sense from a technical standpoint.

Look, despite the uttlerly baseless accusation of me being a "brown-nosing kissass" I don't agree with how MS conducts some of their business practices, and that's a fact.  But my point remains that the accusation of "OMG CRIMINAL M$ VIRUS BROWSER MONOPOLY" is completely off base and untrue for the reasons that were given.

[DYNAGOD]

i was under the impression that part of the court order issued to microsoft was for them to remove IE as a core element of their operating systems..
their browser is not supposed to able to communicate/function/or otherwise interface in any way above and beyond that which potential competitors may with their software..
the heart of the legal battle was that they had a monopoly becuase IE was so closely intertwined with the core operating system..
 that  coupled with the fact that the code for the OS is not available to those third party developers gave them an enourmous, and deemed illegal advantage over the competition..

hence my ILLEGAL accusation..
its not a rant or some conspiracy theory.no tin foil hats... its from what i understand to be legal prescedent....one that they,if indeed i cannot use their update function with a competitors browser ,constitutes a breach of that order..

as for manually downloading 
come on..they dont even list whats critical or not.hell they dont list any updates on the page..you need to know EXACTLY what your looking for, and without the ability to view the auto update page ,you have no idea what that is without sifting through a sea of windows documents...lets be serious!
i took a look at their manual download area, its about as user friendly as an accounting manual..
can you imagine an average 70 year woman trying to keep her computer up to date by those means..its just not gonna happen..

their basically saying if you dont use our browser technology, you have no chance of privacy or security on your machine..
i take that as being strong armed into using their product..one that time after time has been deemed a security risk and clearly something that your average joe user should be steering well clear of..

[Sasquatch!]

i was under the impression that part of the court order issued to microsoft was for them to remove IE as a core element of their operating systems..
their browser is not supposed to able to communicate/function/or otherwise interface in any way above and beyond that which potential competitors may with their software..
the heart of the legal battle was that they had a monopoly becuase IE was so closely intertwined with the core operating system..
 that  coupled with the fact that the code for the OS is not available to those third party developers gave them an enourmous, and deemed illegal advantage over the competition..

hence my ILLEGAL accusation..
its not a rant or some conspiracy theory.no tin foil hats... its from what i understand to be legal prescedent....one that they,if indeed i cannot use their update function with a competitors browser ,constitutes a breach of that order..

Well, yes and no.  A judge did find in 1999 that Microsoft was creating a monopoly with it's IE integration, but that decsion was overturned, as was that mandate that they break the company up into separate "OS" and "software" divisions.  So what your understanding of the case was true up until 2001 when the charge was formally overturned.  Ironically, based on the conversation that we're having,  the basis for the ruling being overturned was that the judge that made the monoploy ruling gave "an appearance of bias against Microsoft" in interviews.  So long story short, they are NOT in violation of any law.

as for manually downloading 
come on..they dont even list whats critical or not.hell they dont list any updates on the page..you need to know EXACTLY what your looking for, and without the ability to view the auto update page ,you have no idea what that is without sifting through a sea of windows documents...lets be serious!
i took a look at their manual download area, its about as user friendly as an accounting manual..

Eh, this is personal opinion.  I'll admit that it's not as easy as letting it do the automatic update, but it's not IMPOSSIBLE.

can you imagine an average 70 year woman trying to keep her computer up to date by those means..its just not gonna happen..

No, but that's who should be using the automatic update, don'tcha think? 

their basically saying if you dont use our browser technology, you have no chance of privacy or security on your machine..

I guess...kind of.  But again, like I said, Windows Update can co-exist with Firefox quite peacefully.  I guess that's why I don't see this as being THAT big of a deal.

i take that as being strong armed into using their product..one that time after time has been deemed a security risk and clearly something that your average joe user should be steering well clear of..

I totally agree with you here: IE's security model is fundamentally flawed.   I guess my overall point is that you're NOT really strong-armed into using it.  For Windows Update alone, yes, but I guess I don't see that as being that big of an "intrusion".

(By the way, I'm glad this conversation has swung back to being civil.  Have a beer and pretend that I bought it for ya or something, 'K? )

[Floyd10]

Theyre gonna make mozilla products unusable with their security patches

[paigeoliver]

If you are using Firefox then you don't even really NEED most of the updates. Almost all windows updates seem to essentially be internet explorer ones.

[DYNAGOD]

If you are using Firefox then you don't even really NEED most of the updates. Almost all windows updates seem to essentially be internet explorer ones.

that statement says an awfull lot alot about the point ive been trying to make!
if the update service is indeed almost exclusively catered for patching their internet explorer browser why is it called Windows update?
by thier own admission,they consider internet explorer an intrinsic component of the Window.. otherwise there would be an internet explorer automatic update page, and a seperate Windows operating system update..
they clearly consider the two to be one entity..

[Trimoor]

Referencing a previous question on this thread, how exactly did you "unintentionally cripple" IE?
I would like to do the same to my computer

[DYNAGOD]

im not sure how i did it.. i wish i knew...

but i do know if your running SP2, you can go to:
control panel
add remove programs
add remove windows components (on the left side)
uncheck Internet explorer.

then remove all your file associations that point to IE and delete any shortcuts or related files.

Done!
no worky

[Sasquatch!]

If you are using Firefox then you don't even really NEED most of the updates. Almost all windows updates seem to essentially be internet explorer ones.

Uh...no?  Windows Update does update a whole lot more than just IE here.  Granted, a LOT of is geared toward IE, but it's pretty reckless to just say that you can dismiss Windows Update if you're not using IE,

that statement says an awfull lot alot about the point ive been trying to make!
if the update service is indeed almost exclusively catered for patching their internet explorer browser why is it called Windows update?
by thier own admission,they consider internet explorer an intrinsic component of the Window.. otherwise there would be an internet explorer automatic update page, and a seperate Windows operating system update..
they clearly consider the two to be one entity..

You are right: Windows and IE are intertwined.  It's kind of like trying to separate conjoined twins that share a head...you can't do it without risking killing them both.

im not sure how i did it.. i wish i knew...

but i do know if your running SP2, you can go to:
control panel
add remove programs
add remove windows components (on the left side)
uncheck Internet explorer.

then remove all your file associations that point to IE and delete any shortcuts or related files.

Done!
no worky

That doesn't actually remove IE though; it just removes pointers to it.  You can't "remove" IE for exactly the reason you stated above: It's an integral part of how Windows works.   They are one in the same.

If I may offer some advice: go back into add/remove programs and re-add IE and see if it (and Windows Update) works.  Believe me, I agree with you that IE is a big honkin' security risk, but "crippling" IE  is a bad idea.

[Sasquatch!]

Referencing a previous question on this thread, how exactly did you "unintentionally cripple" IE?
I would like to do the same to my computer

Uhhh, isn't it pretty clear from reading this thread that doing the same will also bork up your computer just like it did DYNAGOD's?  Trust me: You do not want to do this.

For the record, here is the proper way to shield your computer from the huge majority of security exploits due to IE:

1. Use an alternative browser.  I too use and would personally recommend Firefox, but if the standard Mozilla client or Opera suit you better, go for it.  Also, go ahead and make this your default broswer.  Don't worry...you can always tell IE to be the default again if you need to.

2. In IE go to Tools -> Internet Options.   In the "General" tab clear all Cookies and delete all Offline Content.

3. Now go to the "Security" tab.  Cllick the "Default Level" button and set your security settings to "High".  You should also then click the "Custom Level" button and make sure that all (signed and unsigned) ActiveX Controls, VM, and Installation settings are set to "disable".

4. "Disabling" all ActiveX Controls now means that Windows Update won't work.  No problem.  While still on the "Security" tab in Internet Properties, click on the "Trusted Sites" icon up near the top and then click the "Sites" button.  Add the following sites:
http://*.windowsupdate.microsoft.com
http://*.windowsupdate.com
Also make sure to uncheck the "require server verification" checkbox.

What you've essentially done is removed the ability for websites to use ActiveX through IE, except for Windows Update.  Viola, IE is buttoned down nice and tight, and Windows Update still works.

[Trimoor]

Yeah, I've already done the above.  I know that there is a way to completely remove IE, as I have seen several commercial products that claim such.

I should stop procrastinating and just switch to Linux.