Explanation of best MAME Version for TVs

[albrigsr]

I am wondering if anyone can help explain or recommend the best version of MAME for use with a regular television.  My current cabinet contains a 27 inch TV (S-Video) which is paired with an ATI card.  My question really centers around MAME versions such as ADVANCE MAME or SmoothMAME, etc. which claim to be optimized for output to a television.  It appears that the refresh rate, etc. is what gets optimized as well as resolutions or stretching.  All games work fine for me with stretching turned on using MAME32 and I haven't noticed any problems but am wondering if there is a benefit to using one of these other versions.

Thanks for your response!

[Howard_Casto]

I'll tell you what most people don't know.  

Advance mame is for dos users.  Yes you can run it on windows and there is a windows version, but all of it's "tv specifc" benefits can pretty much be done away with if you simply turn hardware stretch on (only available in windows) and use a fixed resolution and a refresh rate of 60.  In today's world of hardware acceleration and arcadeVga cards advance mame is slowly becoming a thing of the past.  

Smooth mame is an interesting one.  I know a lot of people like it, but it doesn't make any sense to me.  It makes every game run at 60fps I believe.  Why?  That doesn't make more frames in the animation, it simply takes the same frames and shows them multiple times.  Yes there is less "tearing" sometimes and the game appears to be more responsive in some cases, but that's not how the game was originally in the arcades.  Imho a feature that compromises arcade accuracy that much is a step in the wrong direction.  

[TalkingOctopus]

I tried SmoothMAME w/ my TV for a couple of weeks, but I honestly could not tell the difference so I went back to plain old official commandline mame.  I don't think SmoothMAME is being released anymore anyways.  Although I think it may have been incorporated into NoNameMAME.

[Howard_Casto]

Well, atm anyway, noname is dead as well, so it doesn't really matter

[sofakng]

but all of it's "tv specifc" benefits can pretty much be done away with if you simply turn hardware stretch on (only available in windows) and use a fixed resolution and a refresh rate of 60.  

Where do you turn on hardware stretch?

Also, what fixed resolution should I set?

I'm not sure how to set a fixed resolution and refresh rate, but I'm assuming it's in the MAME documentation.

[EDIT] One last thing, my desktop does not stretch to fit the entire TV screen.  I think there are tools that exist to do this but I'm only familar with "TVTool" which is not free.  Does anything free exist to fix this?

[Gradius]

Try a game at 57hz, 55hz, etc and you'll see the importance of SmoothMAME. If you want those games synced you'll have to setup your display to match the refresh rate of the game or otherwise it will be jerky. The problem is that there are dozens of non-standard refresh rates combined with dozens of different res modes. Forcing them to 60hz simplifies it all, for those who use a unique res high res mode with hardware stretch, and also for ArcadeVGA users who wish to use only 60hz modes and forget about dealing with rare refresh rates. SmoothMAME is not being released any longer because now we don't need modified drivers. Now we can force all games to 60hz with this:

Open up driver.h y change:
machine->frames_per_second = (rate);                                                            \
with
machine->frames_per_second = ((rate) >= 50) ? 60 : (rate);                                      \

[Howard_Casto]

Well yeah, or do the smart thing and simply force the refresh rate to 60 in the mame.ini which for the record you ahve been able to do long before smoothmame came out and I mentioned specifically in my original response.  Like I said, no offense to it's authors but it was never particularly useful.  

You have been able to force mame resolutions and refresh rates almost since day one.  That was kinda my point with my original response to this post.  

[Gradius]

There's nothing you can do with the ini. The only option if you don't know about compiling is to use syncrefresh, but the sound will be corrupted.

[Howard_Casto]

ugh man, you must be living in some kind of vortex or something.  

Taken from my own personal ini file:

hwstretch               1
cleanstretch            auto
resolution              1024x768x32
zoom                    1
refresh                 60

Refrsh forces your monitor to always work at whatever resolution you set, in this case 60hz.  Always, no exceptions.  So what exactly are you talking about?  I would suggest you read more about mame's options and their functions.  

[Minwah]

ugh man, you must be living in some kind of vortex or something.  

Taken from my own personal ini file:

hwstretch               1
cleanstretch            auto
resolution              1024x768x32
zoom                    1
refresh                 60

Refrsh forces your monitor to always work at whatever resolution you set, in this case 60hz.  Always, no exceptions.  So what exactly are you talking about?  I would suggest you read more about mame's options and their functions.  

I must admit HC, I thought the refresh option was added fairly recently (maybe the same time as zoom).  I'm pretty sure they never used to be there.

Either way, there must have been a reason for SmoothMAME, I'm sure Twisty wouldn't have gone to the effort of doing it if a simple ini option could've done it...

[Tilzs]

I'll tell you what most people don't know.  

Advance mame is for dos users.  

and Linux

[Howard_Casto]

I must admit HC, I thought the refresh option was added fairly recently (maybe the same time as zoom).  I'm pretty sure they never used to be there.

Either way, there must have been a reason for SmoothMAME, I'm sure Twisty wouldn't have gone to the effort of doing it if a simple ini option could've done it...

Nope... it's been in there since around .36b17.  Mind you nobody ever uses these settings properly anyway.  I am still amazed of people complaining about mame setting the wrong resolution when you shouldn't be letting mame set the resolution in the first place.  (Or at least under normal circumstances.)  

I know what smooth mame was for, it just didn't make any sense.  Smooth mame gets games to run at 60fps, it has little or nothing to do with the refresh rate.  All running a game at 60fps that isn't meant to run at that speed does is render the screen more, thus putting a worse tax on your processor and give the input scheme more chances to poll, thus loosing accuracy on both ends.  It's soul purpose was to try to eliminate screen tearing on side scrollers with odd refresh rates, only it didn't work.  

Twisty had good intentions, it's just his experiment didn't pan out.  That happens sometimes.  But there's no point arguing over if it works in the present to try to defend his good name.  His name is still good, he just made a stinker at one point.

[Gradius]

OK, I'll try to explain it so that you can understand it. For games to run smoothly, they must run synced to the monitor refresh. For this you should use vsync or triple buffer, otherwise you'll experience tearing on screen. Now, this is with 60hz games, and supposing the res mode you're using in your PC is 60hz (120 hz will also be ok, but there will be some pixel doubling in moving objects). Any problems so far? OK. Now, what happens if the emulated game runs at 57hz, or at 59,63hz (cps2). There will be a mismatch between the emulated game rate and the actual rate you've set. Result: hiccups in scrolls and moving sprites. The higher the mismatch is, the more frequent the hiccups will be. Solution: set exact refresh rates for every game, which is really a pain considering the variety of res modes and refresh rates there are. Easy solution: tweak these games to be pure 60hz (they will run a percentage faster up to 60). This is what SMOOTHMAME is for. I can't understand that you say that SmoothMAME was useless, because, in my opinion, it has been the best and most useful MAME build I've ever used, and I couldn't be more grateful to Twisty for releasing his modified drivers during all this time. If you are 100% purists and don't want any speed tweak, I understand that you don't use global 60hz, but if you want smoothness and perfect performance, it's the way to go.

[Minwah]

Nope... it's been in there since around .36b17.  Mind you nobody ever uses these settings properly anyway.  I am still amazed of people complaining about mame setting the wrong resolution when you shouldn't be letting mame set the resolution in the first place.  (Or at least under normal circumstances.)  

I stand corrected

It surprises me also how many people just leave the MAME defaults (many not bothering to even create mame.ini!)

[seibu]

OK, I'll try to explain it so that you can understand it. For games to run smoothly, they must run synced to the monitor refresh. For this you should use vsync or triple buffer, otherwise you'll experience tearing on screen. Now, this is with 60hz games, and supposing the res mode you're using in your PC is 60hz (120 hz will also be ok, but there will be some pixel doubling in moving objects). Any problems so far? OK. Now, what happens if the emulated game runs at 57hz, or at 59,63hz (cps2). There will be a mismatch between the emulated game rate and the actual rate you've set. Result: hiccups in scrolls and moving sprites. The higher the mismatch is, the more frequent the hiccups will be. Solution: set exact refresh rates for every game, which is really a pain considering the variety of res modes and refresh rates there are. Easy solution: tweak these games to be pure 60hz (they will run a percentage faster up to 60). This is what SMOOTHMAME is for. I can't understand that you say that SmoothMAME was useless, because, in my opinion, it has been the best and most useful MAME build I've ever used, and I couldn't be more grateful to Twisty for releasing his modified drivers during all this time. If you are 100% purists and don't want any speed tweak, I understand that you don't use global 60hz, but if you want smoothness and perfect performance, it's the way to go.

Thank you. Or to put it another way, go and play Pac-Land on an Arcade monitor using an Arcade VGA under windows. You will not be able to eliminate the tearing completely, no matter what you do.

Now, do the same thing with SmoothMAME in Windows, or AdvanceMAME under Linux or DOS. No tearing, see.

Also, to call AdvanceMAME a thing of the past is a bit rich. AdvanceMAME under windows is certainly a bit redundant, but AdvanceMAME under Linux or DOS is still the only way to get truly authentic video output. It's also the only way to enjoy Med Res games without ugly, inauthentic hardware stretch.

[Minwah]

Thank you. Or to put it another way, go and play Pac-Land on an Arcade monitor using an Arcade VGA under windows. You will not be able to eliminate the tearing completely, no matter what you do.

I was interested so I gave it a go...

I could not see any tearing to be honest, although the background scrolling seems a little jittery.  I tried refresh 60, and it didn't make any difference, so I tried it on my desktop + pc monitor and the same thing...I can't actually remember whether the real game was like that (?)

[whammoed]

In today's world of hardware acceleration and arcadeVga cards advance mame is slowly becoming a thing of the past.  

Gee, I hope not.  I run advmame on linux and from my experience it seems like the best way to run games at their true arcade resolutions.  Are you suggesting hardware stretching is better than actual arcade resolutions?  I have heard some people say you can also run true resolutions with powerstrip but I have no experience with it.  Anyway, from my point of view I don't see advmame becoming a thing of the past anytime soon.  But maybe I'm just confused?

[Minwah]

In today's world of hardware acceleration and arcadeVga cards advance mame is slowly becoming a thing of the past.  

Gee, I hope not.  I run advmame on linux and from my experience it seems like the best way to run games at their true arcade resolutions.  Are you suggesting hardware stretching is better than actual arcade resolutions?  I have heard some people say you can also run true resolutions with powerstrip but I have no experience with it.  Anyway, from my point of view I don't see advmame becoming a thing of the past anytime soon.  But maybe I'm just confused?

Well he did say slowly  I don't think it will go in the very near future, although it does not seem like a too remote possibility that an ArcadeVGA-ish card could come out that supported low, medium and high resolutions - now that could be the nail in the coffin...

[Howard_Casto]

Also, to call AdvanceMAME a thing of the past is a bit rich. AdvanceMAME under windows is certainly a bit redundant, but AdvanceMAME under Linux or DOS is still the only way to get truly authentic video output. It's also the only way to enjoy Med Res games without ugly, inauthentic hardware stretch.

Running a mame cab with anything other than windows is slowly becoming a thing of the past.  With today's high-powered pcs there isn't much point.  And for the record all hardware stretch does is stretch the screen.... it's no more inauthentic than any other method of incresing screen size.  As a matter of fact on displays that don't support that resolution it's the only way to make the image look halfway authentic.  

[Minwah]

And for the record all hardware stretch does is stretch the screen.... it's no more inauthentic than any other method of incresing screen size.  As a matter of fact on displays that don't support that resolution it's the only way to make the image look halfway authentic.  

I agree and disagree.  I think seibu is referring to the blurring you get with hwstretch.  I agree that when stretching 'up', software stretching or harware stretching without the bilinear filtering looks much better.  But when compressing a high res. screen onto a lower res. one, hwstretch does a great job.  Actually I was playing a med. res. game (Super Sprint) on my low-res monitor the other day @ 640x480 (interlaced) -hwstretch, and it looked so good I forgot the game was med. res.!

[Howard_Casto]

The blurring comes from your video card's default settings, it has little or nothing to do with the hwstretch function itself.  

Again, people don't read the docs.  Set your effect to "sharp" (this actually turns off all effects and disables blending) and poof, all blurring is gone.  If it doesn't then it's exclusively the fault of your video card as it doesn't support the directx calls properly or forces it's settings over the application's.  

Not, b*tching, it's just once you learn to program in dx you get a better understanding about how many "software" errors are actually hardware related.  

[seibu]

Thank you. Or to put it another way, go and play Pac-Land on an Arcade monitor using an Arcade VGA under windows. You will not be able to eliminate the tearing completely, no matter what you do.

I was interested so I gave it a go...

I could not see any tearing to be honest, although the background scrolling seems a little jittery.  I tried refresh 60, and it didn't make any difference, so I tried it on my desktop + pc monitor and the same thing...I can't actually remember whether the real game was like that (?)

Oh yeah, sorry, I forgot about the jittering. I personally couldn't shift the tearing with regular MAME, so well done - maybe there's a new feature there? For me, smoothMAME created the jittering you describe, I guess because the 60Hz driver hack had messed up the parralax.

Still, both the jittering and / or the tearing are a symptom of the fact that within Windows, you simply cannot output the 60.606060Hz signal that this game generates. To do this, you need to program the registers of the video card directly, which means you need AdvanceMAME running in Linux or DOS.

This is one reason why AdvanceMAME will not disappear any time soon. The second is that although hardware stretch can look very good indeed with the right settings, it is simply not accurate. If I've gone to the trouble of building a cab and installing a genuine arcade monitor, I want my PC to output the EXACT same format of video signal as the original board. With non-60Hz or med-res games only AdvanceMAME can achieve this.

There are also very practical reasons for demanding this. In the case of Pac-Land, the original didn't tear and was NOT jittery. The only way therefore to recreate the original properly is to use AdvanceMAME.

Also, it's worth pointing out that a properly optimised Linux setup of AdvanceMAME using the SVGALIB (not X), marginally outperforms regular MAME on Windows XP. At least in every game I've tried, anyway.

[Minwah]

The blurring comes from your video card's default settings, it has little or nothing to do with the hwstretch function itself.  

Again, people don't read the docs.  Set your effect to "sharp" (this actually turns off all effects and disables blending) and poof, all blurring is gone.  If it doesn't then it's exclusively the fault of your video card as it doesn't support the directx calls properly or forces it's settings over the application's.  

Not, b*tching, it's just once you learn to program in dx you get a better understanding about how many "software" errors are actually hardware related.  

I realise this...but probably 99% of peoples video cards cause the blurring by default.  And although effect sharp removes a LOT of the blurring, in my experience it doesn't remove all of it, and I could be wrong, but I was under the impression using -effect stuff used more CPU cycles which I try to avoid where ever possible.

I don't think anyone was 'blaming' mame, just making observations really...

OT I am finalling trying my hand at DX programming, so I am sure I have plenty of stuff to look forward to learning

[whammoed]

Indeed, I don't think it really matters how "good" hardware stretching can look as it is not accurate to the game. To me, the ideal way to do it is output the exact resolution the game was designed to run at on a monitor that can display it.  To over simplify it a bit, take two pixels made up of 1 black pixel and 1 white pixel and try to display it with three pixels.  What color will the third pixel be?  Gray?  Anyway, having said that, I know that it is not a real life scenario...I have used hardware stretching on an arcade vga monitor that I was happy with.  No-one could tell that anything was different than the original but me.  If I still had that cabinet though, I would set it up with advmame and use resolutions with even pixel ratios so I wouldn't need to use hardware stretching.  That reminds me, I still haven't donated a few bucks to the advance projects, I will do that today.