TOKENS: Poll 1: Design Decision VOTING CLOSED

[patrickl]

Tilzs and DaveMMR,

I know I have a hard time explaining my points, but it looks you haven't read the discussion  very well either.

Maybe I explain once more since there probably will be others who didn't understand:

I merely asked for some recognition of the other designs. Yes I have read the whole thread and what I saw was that there was a considerable shift with people cheering for the latest design added. Pixel's were last in the list and last to get recognition (agreed that was a lot more than the other designs though). I have seen plenty of support for other designs too though. It's not like they were all crap.

The way things are set up Santoro cannot lose money on this, only if he tries to sell more than initially agreed on. If money is a problem the setup should be different. Like: we need 40 people to own up before the run is done. Or we factor in a certain profit for Santoro and split the costs over the participants. Money should not be a limiting factor on the design. On the other hand, if Santoro wouldn't have seen a healthy profit in this he might not have started the whole thing up ...

Claiming Santoro might make $1200 on the deal might be uncalled for but I got kinda sick of the "I'm gonna get stuck with these tokens" defense. Come to think of it, by going for the 10.000 nickel tokens he will probably be stuck with a lot of tokens. So that shows he's not just in it to make more money.

When you have a vote for most popular design amongst the people buying the token chances are the most popular design will sell most anyway.

If I had lived in the US I would indeed have contemplated my own run. I think there are enough people willing to buy a token with some humor on it. Don't get me wrong, I think the token will look cool regardless, but I'd rather have my friends take notice of the coin than that they just put them in the coin slot. The only remarks I see coming now are "What does BYOAC" stand for (I guess RTFT would be the response) and "Why doesn't that YMCA guy have no legs" (to which I have no response that wouldn't make me look like a geek).


:edit: If you still don't understand this just flame me on PM. This is getting needlessly off topic since Santoro and I already agreed on what we agree/disagree on.

[Chris]

I merely asked for some recognition of the other designs. Yes I have read the whole thread and what I saw was that there was a considerable shift with people cheering for the latest design added. Pixel's were last in the list and last to get recognition (agreed that was a lot more than the other designs though). I have seen plenty of support for other designs too though. It's not like they were all crap.

Although Pixel's design was among the last added, people were clamoring for it from the beginning.  Most of the mockups I did in-between were basically renditions of what Pixel might do, and never meant to supplant a design from him.  As far as the others, most of them were excellent, although I don't get the llama one.  I like the idea of this being an annual series, and hopefully every time different artists will be used.

The way things are set up Santoro cannot lose money on this, only if he tries to sell more than initially agreed on. If money is a problem the setup should be different. Like: we need 40 people to own up before the run is done. Or we factor in a certain profit for Santoro and split the costs over the participants. Money should not be a limiting factor on the design.

Part of the problem here is the clamor for the silver tokens.  That bumps Santoro's commitment from 5000 tokens to 15,000 tokens.  I can see him needing to tread carefully.  As always, if Santoro's choices or methods are not approved of... well, the mint will take calls and money from everyone.  If each person commits to 400 tokens, and you have 13 people (which the vote seems to indicate), you can have LOTR tokens minted with a cartoon Pac-Man on the front and a llama on the back.  There is nothing stopping you from having exactly what you want!

If I had lived in the US I would indeed have contemplated my own run. I think there are enough people willing to buy a token with some humor on it.

Why is this a barrier?  There are European mints as well...

"Why doesn't that YMCA guy have no legs"

All right, once and for all:  He is NOT a YMCA guy.  He's a United Way guy.  

[Calawala]

All right, once and for all:  He is NOT a YMCA guy.  He's a United Way guy.

Either way, he still picks his nose.  

[patrickl]

If I had lived in the US I would indeed have contemplated my own run. I think there are enough people willing to buy a token with some humor on it.

Why is this a barrier?  There are European mints as well...

But not at these prices and with such small runs (at least not that I know). Shipping costs to the US (where most buyers probably live) would be high too. Besides, I'm not that rude/dissatisfied that I'm going to do a competing run.

Maybe we can have more humor next year yes

[dmsuchy]

I think Santoro did an excellant job! I recall his tread when he was just asking about the discussion from last year and it blew up into this. I for one, am happy about it and can't wait to put my order in, too bad we couldn't just get a tolken with the pac logo on one side and the atomic on the other, now that would be a great lookin coin!

[DaveMMR]

I merely asked for some recognition of the other designs

Your designs were recognized.  You don't have to explain yourself and I got your point.  I was a big fan of what came out of the design thread but when all was said and done, the two designs were what everyone was clamoring for.  

Claiming Santoro might make $1200 on the deal might be uncalled for but I got kinda sick of the "I'm gonna get stuck with these tokens" defense.

Not for nothing but Santoro has every right to say that.  I know I'd be pretty upset that after all this discussion and arguements no one bought the tokens and I had to eat an $800 credit card bill with nothing to show for it but 15,000 unsold tokens.

If I had lived in the US I would indeed have contemplated my own run. I think there are enough people willing to buy a token with some humor on it. Don't get me wrong, I think the token will look cool regardless, but I'd rather have my friends take notice of the coin than that they just put them in the coin slot. The only remarks I see coming now are "What does BYOAC" stand for (I guess RTFT would be the response) and "Why doesn't that YMCA guy have no legs" (to which I have no response that wouldn't make me look like a geek).

Adding humor to these tokens can be risky.  What one person finds funny another might not, perhaps scaring some customers away.

If you still don't understand this just flame me on PM.

It's not a flaming, just a disagreement.  

Honestly, I do see your point.  Nobody 'misunderstood' you.  We're just trying to explain why things are what they are.

[patrickl]

Dave, please read the discussion before. You DID miss what I said.

:edit: Actually I'm not even talking about my own designs since I never turned in any. I merely made suggestions on how to clear up Pixels atomic logo and one for someone to do a fossil logo. I cannot draw myself so I can hardly assume that someone would pick my whole drawing as such.

I would however have liked to see more of pixels mutations (the Pac logo without the player one button in the center since I think the player one button doesn't come out right AFAIC) I also liked american demon's design (and it looked finished to me) and Chris's pacman atomic version. And maybe even a Pixel permutation logo with the different depth levels as I suggested yes (I think the electron trails will look much better if they don't coincide with the letter outsides) They said we could have multilevel so why not use that?

[Chris]

They said we could have multilevel so why not use that?

We can, but it's another additional die charge.

[patrickl]

They said we could have multilevel so why not use that?

We can, but it's another additional die charge.

In the beginning of the thread it was confirmed not. The original design specs state "Line art or a few shades of gray" and Santoro even asked for confirmation on this.

[DaveMMR]

Dave, please read the discussion before. You DID miss what I said.
:

I don't know exactly what I missed after rereading your posts three times.  They seem to be saying the same exact thing to me.  I even said in my last post that you had a point (something I don't say unless I feel I understand the arguement).

Perhaps I am missing something.  If so sorry.  But it's all moot anyway at this point.
 

[Pixelhugger]

FWIW I think it's partially my fault the design steamrolled ahead. I should have blingified the other entries (so everything looked the same) and posted them all together for a comprehensive vote or at least an official primary. I'm sorry patrick. I didn't intend on it happening like it did. I think you have a right to feel frustrated, especially with how formalized the decision making processes have become, post slogan drama. This is particularly true since you specifically asked me to bling the other entries and I didn't get it done in time.

So, I think I'm more to blame than Santoro.... he needs to look after his marketability but I should have been looking after the fairness/equality of my actions relative to the design process.

Also FWIW, I've run BYOAC merchandise at cost before (the hats) and let me say that Santoro is wise to build in a fudge factor in the prices. Even if he profits a bit, chances are he'd have been better off financially temping at Burger King for what it'll amount to in $/hr for his time. I sold the hats on a preorder basis only (1 order confirmed = 1 hat made) and still got stiffed for some of the hats. I was lucky there was enough interest to easily sell unclaimed hats. To be honest, running at cost = running at a bit of a loss. Especially if you factor in the HUGE time commitment involved. Just maintaining a database and keeping orders organized takes HOURS. Not to mention time packaging labeling and running to the post office. Payment trickles in so the whole shipping process is repeated over and over and the database drags on over WEEKS.

I just realized I haven't said so before, so....

SANTORO - THREE HUGE CHEERS TO YOU FOR  KEEPING THIS GOING AND GETTING THIS DONE. You have done a remarkable job at minimoderating your own threads. Congrats and thanks! You FREAKING ROCK!

[Pixelhugger]

tolken

Is that a freudian slip for the LOTR token? (I mean Tolkien)

[Rom]

Personally I feel that if this is done again that if there is a deadline, all the designs should be submitted by email to be all posted together on a set date. This way everyone is on equal footing.
The only reason I say this is that I gathered from the number of people that voted in the "lets wait till Sunday in case"  poll that some still didn't feel fully happy with the designs, myself included. This gave me some hope and I tired my hand at designing, but unfortunately for me the ball was already rolling with the two current designs and I felt it was a lost cause to put any more time into trying ideas out.
Without this sounding like sour grapes, I'm happy to buy what has been voted on, I just think things could be done a bit differently next time.

[Chris]

Your design was great, Rom... I thought if you would just thicken up some of the llines in the cab and maybe reverse the outer ring, it would have been a worthy contender for the back.

[patrickl]

I guess Rom can say it better than I did.

[Santoro]

THREE HUGE CHEERS ...

{blushing}  

Aw knock it off.  Anyone can minimioderate (micromoderate?) a thread.  Art, however is hard.  Thanks to everyone for contributing, especially you and Chris who bore the brunt of the labor.

So, how to go forward.  Here are our winners:

- PAC-Logo
- NO CASH VALUE
- THE GAME IS NEVER OVER
- Stippling X2

I am going to get on the phone with the actual engraver tomorrow and figure out how he wants us to represent stippling in that file. After that we can send it in.

I will re-start pre-orders in the Buy/Sell/Trade forum momentarily.  I am just doing a quick triple check on the $35 pricing.  

I will post this message in the main sticky also.

[maraxle]

So, how to go forward.  Here are our winners:

- PAC-Logo
- NO CASH VALUE
- THE GAME NEVER ENDS  (I always hum an Alan Parsons song when I read this)
- Stippling X2

THE GAME NEVER ENDS?  I don't even see that as an option.

[Santoro]

So, how to go forward.  Here are our winners:

- PAC-Logo
- NO CASH VALUE
- THE GAME NEVER ENDS  (I always hum an Alan Parsons song when I read this)
- Stippling X2

THE GAME NEVER ENDS?  I don't even see that as an option.

oops  fixed

[patrickl]

and the second round in the slogan vote?

[Santoro]

and the second round in the slogan vote?

  It wasn't a tie, remember we are combining "Where the game never ends" and "the game never ends" because they are effectively the same.    that's 16 votes.


Did anyone else think there was going to be another poll if it was not a tie? Maybe I am not communicating well today.

[patrickl]

He, he, I assumed you would have a second round after you said:

Why not an open thread with the voting there, rather than a poll.  I would rather not do the vote counting in private lest I be accused of rigging the votes again.

I also like the idea of only polling those who intend on buying.  If you vote, it is a gentleman's agreement that you are buying.  That might eliminate some clutter.

in this post

[Chris]

I'm SOOO going to regret this...  

As much as I would love for this to be the final word, I agree with Patrick that we should see the current vote as a tie, even combining the other "is never over" option.  It's WAY too close to call, and we can't guarantee that all the votes are valid.

Santoro, this is your show, and you can decide whatever you want.  I certainly prefer this logo over the LOTR one.  But we've come this far with trying to be as inclusive as possible...

Again, I'm probably going to regret this.  But I think we should vote these last three.

Yeah, I'm giving you an ulcer...  I'm sorry.  I have one too now.

--Chris

(EDIT:  Resisting the urge to edit.... AAUGH!)

[patrickl]

In fact maybe you should go for the most popular 2 choices since "Game not over" and The Game is never over" are so similar.

[Chris]

So, how to go forward.  Here are our winners:

- PAC-Logo
- NO CASH VALUE
- THE GAME IS NEVER OVER
- Stippling X2

What about metal?  Nickel, brass or both?

[Chris]

In fact maybe you should go for the most popular 2 choices since "Game not over" and The Game is never over" are so similar.

Well, if you follow that logic, then they have twice as many votes as LOTR and my conscience is clear.  Ignore my post.  

(Yes, that was my origiinal suggestion, but Santoro thought "Game Not Over" should stand on its own, so I was following that logic.  I like yours better.)

[Santoro]

What about metal?  Nickel, brass or both?

Both.

[patrickl]

In fact maybe you should go for the most popular 2 choices since "Game not over" and The Game is never over" are so similar.

Well, if you follow that logic, then they have twice as many votes as LOTR and my conscience is clear.  Ignore my post.  

(Yes, that was my origiinal suggestion, but Santoro thought "Game Not Over" should stand on its own, so I was following that logic.  I like yours better.)

I was more thinking along the lines of if the people who picked "Game not over" were alowed a revote would they pick "The game is never over" or "one coin ...". If you add that choice again in a second round you probably end up with almost the same vote with another tie as a result (assuming the 67% of the people who voted for these 3 options will do so again).

[Chris]

In fact maybe you should go for the most popular 2 choices since "Game not over" and The Game is never over" are so similar.

Well, if you follow that logic, then they have twice as many votes as LOTR and my conscience is clear.  Ignore my post.  

(Yes, that was my origiinal suggestion, but Santoro thought "Game Not Over" should stand on its own, so I was following that logic.  I like yours better.)

I was more thinking along the lines of if the people who picked "Game not over" were alowed a revote would they pick "The game is never over" or "one coin ...". If you add that choice again in a second round you probably end up with almost the same vote with another tie as a result (assuming the 67% of the people who voted for these 3 options will do so again).

I'm happy to do it your way... really I am.  

It sounds like you want to see it as a "LOTR" vs. "Non-LOTR" vote.  I agree with that approach.  If so, then that's been decided, and we should really be voting between The Game Is Never Over and Game Not Over.

--Chris
(EDIT: Spelling)

[patrickl]

In fact maybe you should go for the most popular 2 choices since "Game not over" and The Game is never over" are so similar.

Well, if you follow that logic, then they have twice as many votes as LOTR and my conscience is clear.  Ignore my post.  

(Yes, that was my origiinal suggestion, but Santoro thought "Game Not Over" should stand on its own, so I was following that logic.  I like yours better.)

I was more thinking along the lines of if the people who picked "Game not over" were alowed a revote would they pick "The game is never over" or "one coin ...". If you add that choice again in a second round you probably end up with almost the same vote with another tie as a result (assuming the 67% of the people who voted for these 3 options will do so again).

I'm happy to do it your way... really I am.  

It sounds like you want to see it as a "LOTR" vs. "Non-LOTR" vote.  I agree with that approach.  If so, then that's been decided, and we should really be voting betwee, The Game Is Never Over and Game Not Over.

--Chris

Ehm no, I'm not sure the "Game not over" voters will all go for "The game is never over". Game not over is a mame phrase (allthough you disagree, but I normally only see it in combination with mame) and "The game is never over" might mean nothing to them.

I'm for a 2 way vote because otherwise you'll always have a fraction of the voters that are left out on the voting of the 2 contenders. I mean to reduce the "oh damn if my vote didn't win I would have voted for the #2 and that would have won" dilemma.

[Chris]

In fact maybe you should go for the most popular 2 choices since "Game not over" and The Game is never over" are so similar.

Well, if you follow that logic, then they have twice as many votes as LOTR and my conscience is clear.  Ignore my post.  

(Yes, that was my origiinal suggestion, but Santoro thought "Game Not Over" should stand on its own, so I was following that logic.  I like yours better.)

I was more thinking along the lines of if the people who picked "Game not over" were alowed a revote would they pick "The game is never over" or "one coin ...". If you add that choice again in a second round you probably end up with almost the same vote with another tie as a result (assuming the 67% of the people who voted for these 3 options will do so again).

I'm happy to do it your way... really I am.  

It sounds like you want to see it as a "LOTR" vs. "Non-LOTR" vote.  I agree with that approach.  If so, then that's been decided, and we should really be voting betwee, The Game Is Never Over and Game Not Over.

--Chris

Ehm no, I'm not sure the "Game not over" voters will all go for "The game is never over". Game not over is a mame phrase (allthough you disagree, but I normally only see it in combination with mame) and "The game is never over" might mean nothing to them.

I'm for a 2 way vote because otherwise you'll always have a fraction of the voters that are left out on the voting of the 2 contenders. I mean to reduce the "oh damn if my vote didn't win I would have voted for the #2 and that would have won" dilemma.

That's fine.  I'm still happy to do it your way...

[Chris]

Again something I'm going to regret...

Here's the fairest way to do this: two votes.  Vote between all three, then vote between the two with the highest vote total after that.

Or we just say it's Santoro's show, we all fought hard, but let him pick what he wants of the three and let's get these tokens ordered already!

[Santoro]

My pre-existing ulcer is bleeding :
I am going to think for a few hours on my commute home.

[patrickl]

You could do that in one round. Have everyone give 2 votes. Option #1 gets 2 points and option #2 gets 1 (or maybe 3 and 1 is better?) Then it's ranked rather than a vote.

[Chris]

While he (and I) are driving home, I guess I'll put the question to the "other side":  Can we just proceed with the slogan Santoro selected, or do you need more voting to be happy with the outcome?

If that question is unfair by putting you on the spot, you can ignore it or tell me so...

In the meantime: Pixel, can you send me your original AI file so I can see if we need to mach line weights and such?  Corel can handle up to AI 7.  (I don't know if that's current or not...)

--Chris

[Pixelhugger]

My pre-existing ulcer is bleeding :
I am going to think for a few hours on my commute home.

Yikes!  ....and I thought MY commute was bad.

[Santoro]

It is actually only 1 hr 15 mins, I lumped dinner in there as well, though last year when I worked in Midtown Manhattan I DID have a 2 hour commute.  

It suh uh uh ucked!

[patrickl]

I'm fine with the choice as is, but I hope it's not just me who thinks there should be a second round.

I just read the whole thread back and I guess I just missed the first bit. When I came in there was some of talk of a second round (and I chimed in at that point) and later some more (I think the "one coin " entry was in the lead at that time). Ah well, I guess it was just me thinking there would be a second round.

:edit: this is a reply to chris' question

[Calawala]

I'm in favor of a second round vote only because the first one was sorta stacked in favor of the "theme", being that there were three entries for the theme and only one entry for each of the others.

[dag2000]

Back again with another .02 ...

I think that If Santoro, Pixelhugger and Chris all favor "the game is never over" or one of its variants, and the "other side" can life with that slogan (I can) they should get what they want.  They've put in a lot of effort and I don't think anyone is going to hate the finished product either way it is done, so lets reward them.

-Dave

(admittedly, my preference was the latin, and that just isn't going to happen, but I think I'd feel the same way even if it was still in the running)

[nighthawk2099]

   !!!!!!!!!!AaaaaarrrrrrrGGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!  

THIS IS HURTING MY HEAD !!!!!!

!!! PICK ONE ALREADY !!!