What constitutes a valid rom license?

[mlcampbe]

I'm building a MAME cabinet and would like to be legal for the rom's that I play. Mainly the classics such as ms. pacman, outrun, centipede, etc...

I know that this has been discussed previously but cannot find it in the archives.

If I go down to wal-mart and buy the xbox, snes, playstation cartridge of the game does that make my MAME rom legal? Why or why not?

What about if I purchase that 10-in-1 joystick game that includes most of the classic games. Does that work?

If neither of the above work then what are the legal ways to acquire the rom? Do I have to purchase one of the original arcade games?

[Magnet_Eye]

You need to own the original PCB (you can get them on ebay)...not the entire machine. Also, you can buy the rights to legal roms from sources like www.starroms.com

You might consider buying the various PC compilations that contain the games. Atari Classics, and so on..

 

[DaveMMR]

It's really a big, gray area.

Basically, it's been discussed that owning the original PCB (working or non-working) and then the ROM image would make it legal.  

Also Starroms.com has a bunch of Atari ROMS that you can purchase legally, though the licence doesn't allow you to place the cabinet somewhere to make a profit (like a bar).  Capcom also bundled ROMs with a joystick, and I'm sure the same limitation applies.

Finally, if you own a game in one format, can you legally own the ROM?   I bought a copy of Midway's Arcade Treasures, so can I have a copy of the Robotron ROM, Defender ROM, et al. legally?  There are arguements that say I can and others that say I can't.  The copyright owners may appreciate it but who knows what the lawyers would say.  And what about Strider (or Ninja Gaiden) for the NES and then the Strider (or Ninja Gaiden) ROM?   Same names, but radically different games.

The whole case on what's legal and what's not is not something that's outright clear cut (too many scenarios, such as what you brought up).  

If you're building something for profit and public use, then definately stay aware from MAME (and consult a lawyer over legal options) since it wasn't created for profit's sake.

The FAQ at mame.net has more information about legality.

Anyway, sorry for the verbal tapdancing.  That's just my view of the whole thing - other's may disagree and/or add more.

[Chris]

It's really a big, gray area.

It's about as gray as music swapping, i.e. not at all.  People (myself included) just want it to be a gray area.  

Basically, it's been discussed that owning the original PCB (working or non-working) and then the ROM image would make it legal.  

Owning an arcade board does not give you the rights to the ROM because the software is not licensed to be used in that fashion.  With really old ROMs, you may be able to get away with this because ancient ROMs may not have had license agreements as no one anticipated copying ROMs to a PC back in 1979.

If this was legal, arcade operators would buy one copy of a game and burn it to whatever compatible hardware they could find.  The fact that this activity was widespread didn't make it legal.  If you own the board it is legal to run that board, presuming that the ROMs on the board are in fact legal and not bootlegs.

Finally, if you own a game in one format, can you legally own the ROM?   I bought a copy of Midway's Arcade Treasures, so can I have a copy of the Robotron ROM, Defender ROM, et al. legally?  There are arguements that say I can and others that say I can't.  The copyright owners may appreciate it but who knows what the lawyers would say.  And what about Strider (or Ninja Gaiden) for the NES and then the Strider (or Ninja Gaiden) ROM?   Same names, but radically different games.

Buying a game with the same title in a different format in no way gives you legal rights to anything with that name.

If the PC version contains a ROM file and you copy that ROM file to your game cabinet, that should be legal, as long as you do not use the original; at that point, you're just using MAME to run the ROM instead of whatever emulator they packaged with it.  But if you buy a game that is a recreation of an arcade game but doesn't use the actual ROM files, you have absolutely no legal basis to use the ROMs.  Otherwise, you could go to a flea market and buy an old Atari 2600 Pac-Man cartridge and say you had rights to the full-fledged Pac-Man arcade software.

--Chris

[SirPoonga]

Owning an arcade board does not give you the rights to the ROM because the software is not licensed to be used in that fashion.  With really old ROMs, you may be able to get away with this because ancient ROMs may not have had license agreements as no one anticipated copying ROMs to a PC back in 1979.

If this was legal, arcade operators would buy one copy of a game and burn it to whatever compatible hardware they could find.  The fact that this activity was widespread didn't make it legal.  If you own the board it is legal to run that board, presuming that the ROMs on the board are in fact legal and not bootlegs.

I am going to have to disagree.  You are talking about arcade operators buying one copy and burning it to other hardware for use as a game for selling?  Yeah, that would not be right.  But you are entitled to a backup and use the backup over the original, that's why it is a backup.

It's like this, I have a CD that I bought with songs.  I rip to mp3 and put them on a diamond rio.  That's still legal even thought hte song is on a differnt hardware than the the CD could be used in.  Sorry, that's the closest thing I could come up with that is close to what is being done with the arcade PCBs.  Or does CD copyrights allow that, even old CDs before mp3s existed, I suppose cassettes existed and would be simular if they worded it as other media.

[Chris]

Owning an arcade board does not give you the rights to the ROM because the software is not licensed to be used in that fashion.  With really old ROMs, you may be able to get away with this because ancient ROMs may not have had license agreements as no one anticipated copying ROMs to a PC back in 1979.

If this was legal, arcade operators would buy one copy of a game and burn it to whatever compatible hardware they could find.  The fact that this activity was widespread didn't make it legal.  If you own the board it is legal to run that board, presuming that the ROMs on the board are in fact legal and not bootlegs.

I am going to have to disagree.  You are talking about arcade operators buying one copy and burning it to other hardware for use as a game for selling?  Yeah, that would not be right.  But you are entitled to a backup and use the backup over the original, that's why it is a backup.

Not all licenses permit this.  Even so, you are only licensed (in most cases) to use the software on it's original hardware.  Again, licenses from the early days of gaming may not specify this, but any recent license does.

It's like this, I have a CD that I bought with songs.  I rip to mp3 and put them on a diamond rio.  That's still legal even thought hte song is on a differnt hardware than the the CD could be used in.  Sorry, that's the closest thing I could come up with that is close to what is being done with the arcade PCBs.  Or does CD copyrights allow that, even old CDs before mp3s existed, I suppose cassettes existed and would be simular if they worded it as other media.

Only if the license allows you to do so.  Music is licensed, not sold, and you do not always have the freedom to shift the song to a different media.  Owning the cassette version does not entitle you to a CD version.

Now, music licenses are far less detailed than a software license.  If you look at a software license for a late 90's or modern arcade game, you'll be suprised all the restrictions in there.

It's worse for desktop software.  THe Microsoft SQL Server 2000 license prohibits you from criticizing SQL Server's performance in print without Microsoft's permission.  :O

[SirPoonga]

Now, music licenses are far less detailed than a software license.  If you look at a software license for a late 90's or modern arcade game, you'll be suprised all the restrictions in there.

True, but it's the old arcade game license that produce the grey area.

[Chris]

I don't have any manuals, so i couldn't tell you when licenses appeared.  I'm pretty sure that by the time Pac-Man was on the scene, licenses were in full force... but Boot Hill?  Surround?  Sprint 1?  Those games might predate licenses... That doesn't mean that they weren't under copyright, it only means they may not have had restrictions only allowing them to run on their original hardware.

[DaveMMR]

It's about as gray as music swapping, i.e. not at all.  People (myself included) just want it to be a gray area.  

So what you're saying is music swapping is always illegal?  Nope, not always.  Say I was an musician and I used programs like Kazaa to distribute a song I created just to get it 'out there'.  It's not illegal then.  But when a song was created for the sake of selling albums, then yeah - you're breaking the law.

I was vague with my answer to spark a little debate - especially with the concept of owning a game for one format and being able to own the ROM legally.   Personally, I believe that's not legal (mainly because of different licensing - i.e. one was meant for profit and the other for personal home use).  

[maraxle]

I am going to have to disagree.  You are talking about arcade operators buying one copy and burning it to other hardware for use as a game for selling?  Yeah, that would not be right.  But you are entitled to a backup and use the backup over the original, that's why it is a backup.

The catch with backups is that technically, you have to dump your own ROMs for it to be a backup.  Just like technically, you have to rip your own CDs, copy your own tapes/diskettes, etc.  Of course, if the ROMs are identical to what's on your board, it'll be tough to prove that you got them from somewhere else.

[Chris]

It's about as gray as music swapping, i.e. not at all.  People (myself included) just want it to be a gray area.  

So what you're saying is music swapping is always illegal?  Nope, not always.  Say I was an musician and I used programs like Kazaa to distribute a song I created just to get it 'out there'.  It's not illegal then.  But when a song was created for the sake of selling albums, then yeah - you're breaking the law.

But it's still not a gray area, it's black and white.  If your license allows such sharing, it's legal, otherwise it's not.  Very not gray.

[DaveMMR]

Agreed - won't call in gray, but still a complicated affair (I used gray as a synonym for complicated which is incorrect).

[Chris]

Agreed - won't call in gray, but still a complicated affair (I used gray as a synonym for complicated which is incorrect).

Complicated it is.  Most definately.

[SirPoonga]

I don't have any manuals, so i couldn't tell you when licenses appeared.  I'm pretty sure that by the time Pac-Man was on the scene, licenses were in full force... but Boot Hill?  Surround?  Sprint 1?  Those games might predate licenses... That doesn't mean that they weren't under copyright, it only means they may not have had restrictions only allowing them to run on their original hardware.

Ok, I am reading my Double Dragon II manual.  First, I have a board with a rom update on it!  I need to see what mame is running.  Ok, mame is running the update.

All that is mentioned in the manual is:
IMPORTANT NOTICE
Double Dragon II: The Revenge
will be available exclusively through American Technos, Inc. and Romstar, Inc.
All purchases of this game must be made through American Technos' and Romstar's authorized distributors

BEWARE OF COPY GAMES

Double Dragon II: The Revenge will be available first in the U.S. and Canada until all sales and distribution have been completed.  Upon completion of Sales and Distribution in the U.S. and Canada, Double Dragon II will be released in limited quantities in Europe.
Anyone offering parallel boards of Double Dragon II: The Revenge will more than likely be selling illegal and illegitimate copies, and will be prosecuted accordingly.
American Technos and Romstar support the effortsof the AAMA and the FBI in its anti-drug campaign.  The "Winners Don't Use Drugs" message will appear in all legitimate versions of Double Dragon II: The Revenge.

On the last page is has the FBI warning:
Federal law provides severe civil and criminal penalties for the unautherized reproduction, distribution, or exhibition of copyrighted audiovisual works and video games.
The Federal Bureau of Investigation investigates allegations of criminal copyright infringement.

Nowhere in the manual does it tell the license or define what is or isn't legal. Hmmm.....So, with that FBI warning, you'd have to look at copyright law when ddragon2 was released.  I didn't expect to see anything int he instruction manual.

[Chris]

I don't have any manuals, so i couldn't tell you when licenses appeared.  I'm pretty sure that by the time Pac-Man was on the scene, licenses were in full force... but Boot Hill?  Surround?  Sprint 1?  Those games might predate licenses... That doesn't mean that they weren't under copyright, it only means they may not have had restrictions only allowing them to run on their original hardware.

Ok, I am reading my Double Dragon II manual.  First, I have a board with a rom update on it!  I need to see what mame is running.  Ok, mame is running the update.

All that is mentioned in the manual is:
IMPORTANT NOTICE
Double Dragon II: The Revenge
will be available exclusively through American Technos, Inc. and Romstar, Inc.
All purchases of this game must be made through American Technos' and Romstar's authorized distributors

BEWARE OF COPY GAMES

Double Dragon II: The Revenge will be available first in the U.S. and Canada until all sales and distribution have been completed.  Upon completion of Sales and Distribution in the U.S. and Canada, Double Dragon II will be released in limited quantities in Europe.
Anyone offering parallel boards of Double Dragon II: The Revenge will more than likely be selling illegal and illegitimate copies, and will be prosecuted accordingly.
American Technos and Romstar support the effortsof the AAMA and the FBI in its anti-drug campaign.  The "Winners Don't Use Drugs" message will appear in all legitimate versions of Double Dragon II: The Revenge.

On the last page is has the FBI warning:
Federal law provides severe civil and criminal penalties for the unautherized reproduction, distribution, or exhibition of copyrighted audiovisual works and video games.
The Federal Bureau of Investigation investigates allegations of criminal copyright infringement.

Nowhere in the manual does it tell the license or define what is or isn't legal. Hmmm.....So, with that FBI warning, you'd have to look at copyright law when ddragon2 was released.  I didn't expect to see anything int he instruction manual.

Copyright law would tell you that you couldn't copy it, but wouldn't say anything about what hardware you could run it on.

Muddying the water is a recent court decision regarding obsolete platforms that appears to be in favor of allowing emulation when the original hardware is not readily available, but still doesn't permit distribution of copies of those ROMS, just using copies of ROMs you already have licensed on hardware that is otherwise forbidden by the license.

[SirPoonga]

I thought you could have one legal backup copy, or is that a license thing that allows it, not copyright law?

Muddying the water is a recent court decision regarding obsolete platforms that appears to be in favor of allowing emulation when the original hardware is not readily available, but still doesn't permit distribution of copies of those ROMS, just using copies of ROMs you already have licensed on hardware that is otherwise forbidden by the license.

Yeah, I understand that ruling.  A lot of people didn't.  However, if you can't copy the software how can you emulate it because you'd need a copy in order to do that.  No, wait, never mind.  You could make a board that you can put the rom chips on and emulate the original system.  man, that's annoyingly expensive

[Chris]

I thought you could have one legal backup copy, or is that a license thing that allows it, not copyright law?

License; fair use if not otherwise specified.  And you technically can't use the backup for anything except to restore the original.

I believe that the only 100% guaranteed legal option right now is StarRoms, the Capcom ROMS bundled with stuff, and the three released for use with MAME (and I'm not that sure about Poly-Play).

Note that I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.  Standard disclaimers apply. Your mileage may vary.  Batteries not included.  Do not eat.

[SirPoonga]

License; fair use if not otherwise specified.  And you technically can't use the backup for anything except to restore the original.

That's kinda funny because that's not possible with some media to restore the original.

I believe that the only 100% guaranteed legal option right now is StarRoms, the Capcom ROMS bundled with stuff, and the three released for use with MAME (and I'm not that sure about Poly-Play).

Right, this is the 100% for sure legal way.

The rest, even if illegal, I wouldn't know if anyone would care on old games.  It's low risk if you want to go that route.  Which is funny as we usually do something illegal in our lifetimes but don't realize it is with all the stupid petty little laws that are not very enforcable....

Also it really isn't that much to make a jamma rig, the most expensive part being the monitor.  MY ddragon2 cab was free without monitor

[bigmoe]

I think it *is* greyer than that.

A license is a piece of paper.  It's not necessarily legally binding.  If it conflicts with other legal doctrine--like, say, fair use or the first amendment or the obsolete software preservation portion of the DMCA--a court will have to decide which has precedence.

(I'm shocked no one has taken M$ to task on the sql license...how absurd, but if we all moo along and let them get away with it...)

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, not married to one, nor a sibling or son of one (though occassionally a son of something else).  I never stand on the top rung of a ladder either, incidentally.

b

[Howard_Casto]

This has been asked a million times and the answer is still the same.....

A lot of people use terms like "grey area" and "touchy"  to describe the legal situation.  Now a few years ago I would agree with that assessment, but today this isn't the case.....


Other than starroms, there isn't a single legal method to play roms on your computer.  Owning the pcb means diddly because you had to reverse engineer the hardware to extract the rom data, which violates the dmca.  For those of you who are wondering "reverse engineer"  doesn't need to mean decrypting the roms xor tables, ect.  It just means you removed, stripped, ect data from hardware that the manufacturer didn't give you explicit access to.  In other words, reverse engineering or hacking a pcb/eprom chips to remove the data.  This is done to get the rom data for virtually every mame title.  

And ports are just that, ports.  They are technically a totally different type of software, so you have no claim there.  And this is a good thing in this particular instance.  It protects 3rd party console developers so that if you buy an xbox title you can't use a "backup" copy that is actually the ps2 port.  This is only fair as typically diferent teams of developers are hired to port the game.  If you don't buy both versions, then one team gets screwed out of their hard earned cash.  


Also in both cases you aren't specifically given the right to backup, and in this day and age of stupid legal loopholes, if you aren't specifically given the right then you don't have it.  

About the capcom roms collection.....  If you use the emulator and software package they come with then yes, you can legally play them.  Unfortunately afaik you still don't have the legal right to play them on mame due to the unique liscense agreement and the fact that the roms are saved in a proprietary format.  (Again reverse engineering)  

Now with that being said,  about 50% of the companies that made some of the mame games are defunct and the copyrights holding the claim to the games are only a formality.  So a lot of the time you are stealing from a ghost.  You are still stealing....let me make that perfectly clear, but at least nobody will be around to sue you over it.  

This isn't what you want to hear, I know... but asking the question again won't change the answer.  

Do I think it's stupid?  Heck yeah!  But I still have enough insight to realize what parts of this hobby are illegal and to take that into consideration before I act.

If you have a problem with the way things are (which is more or less what I typed above)  don't argue your point with me.  It's a waste of time as I'm right in this particular case.  Instead use that energy to write your local congressman and demand the right to make backup copies again.  

But for the record, pcbs are a complicated issue because they combine hardware and software.  Right now you definately don't have the right, but even if a law was passed today allowing legal backups of any software you own, you still might not have the right to backup pcb rom data specifically.  But that's another story all together.  

In closing.....  lawyers suck..... we should really do something about that.  

[Chris]

About the capcom roms collection.....  If you use the emulator and software package they come with then yes, you can legally play them.  Unfortunately afaik you still don't have the legal right to play them on mame due to the unique liscense agreement and the fact that the roms are saved in a proprietary format.  (Again reverse engineering)  

Is there more than one Capcom collection?  I have one from HanaHo and was able to copy the ROMs right to my cabinet.  Exed Exes didn't work, but I think that's because the ROM changed.

--Chris

[bigmoe]

Here is one thing I have always wondered:

Given a lot of the MAME Roms are parentless.  Are those the ones we really play or that really brought us into this hobby?  For most of us, probably not.

Why haven't Namco or Midway (or Nintendo or whoever owns the Williams stuff now) shut MAME down?  Or at least the ROM burners?  These companies are viable video-game software companies with on-staff lawyers.  Since they are marketing arcade repros to console buyers, they have a directly competing product whose sales are almost certainly hurt by MAME use.  Especially if it was a legal slam-dunk, why aren't they doing anything about it?

[Chris]

Why haven't Namco or Midway (or Nintendo or whoever owns the Williams stuff now) shut MAME down?  Or at least the ROM burners?  These companies are viable video-game software companies with on-staff lawyers.  Since they are marketing arcade repros to console buyers, they have a directly competing product whose sales are almost certainly hurt by MAME use.  Especially if it was a legal slam-dunk, why aren't they doing anything about it?

Good question.  The most likely answer is that they have nothing to gain from it other than a PR black eye.  (If Napster/P2P users only dealt in old Benny Goodman and Glen Miller songs, the RIAA wouldn't be making like a ten-ton armored fist.)  That's why the MAME team pays attention when IT says "Please don't emulate Golden Tee" or SNK asks us to lay off KOF 2001.  The companies obviously have taken notice but aren't squashing us as long as we play nice with them.  After all, we're not going to run out and buy a brand-new Pac-Man machine from them if we lose our ROM... if MAME machines start showing up on location, though, and cut into sales of 20th Anniversary machines, the MAME scene will be a smoking crater faster than you can say "Injunction".

[mlcampbe]

Ok, I'm the original author of the question and I have to say that I agree with Howard_Casto's dissertation above. I just wanted to see if I was missing anything in my interpretation.

However, I guess my real question behind the scenes would have been what happens if I download some classic ROM's from the internet and start playing them. If I am using them strictly for personal use at home (ie: not making money on it) it's still illegal but what are the chances that anyone is going to care? Are lawyers going to start showing up at the door?

[DaveMMR]

Also keep in mind  (the way I see it) that MAME isn't a household word the way Napster was.  24 year old Pac Man can still sell copies to the old school gamers who either never really heard of MAME or are not computer savvy.   If Namco (or whomever) decided to sue, it could make MAME popular enough to start cutting into their bottom line.  

[Chris]

However, I guess my real question behind the scenes would have been what happens if I download some classic ROM's from the internet and start playing them. If I am using them strictly for personal use at home (ie: not making money on it) it's still illegal but what are the chances that anyone is going to care? Are lawyers going to start showing up at the door?

None of us have had a visit yet.  And with most of our sites in a nice directory in the Examples database, pointing to photographic evidence of all our infringement, if they cared we would have all gotten cease and desists by now.  But that doesn't mean it can't happen.  IANAL.