What would you like in a Top Down Shooter?

[stuzza]

A friend of mine is finishing up his Computer Science Uni degree and is thinking of creating a game as a side project so he can learn more about game design and programming.  I've convinced him to have a go at doing a classic Top Down Shooter style game (but with updated 3d Graphics) that I could play on my Arcade Cabinet and he wants suggestions for features to include in the game.

All I've suggested so far is that the game have fully remappable controls and by default use the standard MAME keys.

If anyone has suggestions for things they'd like to see in a Top Down shooter feel free to post them and I'll see if he can include them.  Include anything that you'd like in a game, be it the type of levels, guns, powerups, themes, etc...

[Minwah]

The only thing I would say is make sure it has some big interesting bosses!!

[Magnet_Eye]

have him check out the demos for the shooter on smallrockets.com

ultra assualt and star monkey are really good!

[NoBonus]

I think the key to a good top down scroller is a keeping the player's interest as the game progresses.  Some games have power-ups you can buy at the end of each level, etc.  Also, there is the debate to if you should use a real plane or a made-up one... the Wright Bros. plane might me interesting... Also, I love having at least four different planes to choose from... you could have the wright flyer, a space shuttle, ....

hey I got it.  Make the game progress like this:  You start off with the Wright flyer on level one, on level two you get a WW1 bi-plane, level 3 you get a WW2 fighter plane, level 4 you get a jet, level 5 you get a stealth, and level 6 you get a futuristic craft of some sort.  The weapons and enimies on each level could correspond with the time period as well, for example, on level one, your enimies would mostly be birds which you could shoot with a rifle and ground enimies whom you could drop rocks and old-fashioned bombs on.  Then level two would have WW1 era weapons and enemies and so on.  

Any thoughts?

NoBonus

[NoBonus]

have him check out the dmeos for the shooter on smallrockets.com

ultra assualt and star monkey are really good!

I cannot get this page to open.  Can you post a link?

[Lilwolf]

Well... if keeping interests make sure there its adult themed and I will try it!

I would like to see something new and interesting myself.

1) Everyone likes different powerups.  Make sure you don't drop them down to nothing when you die.... this often makes it a 1player game... You get to a certain point and you go as far as you can... until you die once... and then its over.

2) Consider different / more then one fire button... I think its something that just isn't added to fighters.  Maybe 3 fire buttons and a bomb?

3) Consider adding an object oriented AI for ships.  Some firing where you are... some a little infront of you... some random... This makes the hardest screens... and you can areas with each... or different combinations.

going to lunch.. I'll add some more later.

[NoBonus]

Of course, instead of losing power-ups, you could always go with a setup like UN Squadron where instead of having 3 to 5 lives, you just have an energy bar and when it's done, you're done.

When you say "adult themed" what exactly are you referring to?

[Chris]

Be different. Why make it a plane?  How about a boat on a river, chasing bad guys James Bond style?

[NoBonus]

I think the key problem with a top down shooter using a land based vehicle is terrain and walls and stuff. Altough it is fun avoiding walls and stuff, it takes something away from the action.  A boat game would be cool. Or a hovercraft game top down shooter with a mix of land and water and swamp.  OR a swamp based boat game where you drive one of those swamp boats with the big prop on the back and you could fight gators and whatnot.

[NoBonus]

I got it.  Have your friend make the single most violent top-down shooter ever; you could be an attack copter or A-10 or even use a land based vehilce and you could go around shooting terrorists, camels, pickup trucks, suicide bombers, and their terrorist camps in the desert.  Of course using real terrorists and terrorist organizations would only make this game more fun.  Blood and gore everywhere, great fun.  Of course, some groups might take offense to this sort of game, but that will only work to make this game more of a legend and make more people want to play it (sort of like what happend with Postal).  Of course, my other ideas are likely better and more fun, but this is an idea that may really appeal to you.

NoBOnus

[DaveJ-UK]

Make it funny, everyone likes a game that makes them laf. This is probably easier said than done.

One thing that really irritates me in a lot of games is how every single enemy fires the same damn little round balls at you. And they all have the same effect on you; you could have ice, fire, poison, etc. damage like in Diablo!

And big explosions, can't go wrong there. Same for ludicrously powerful power ups.

[NoBonus]

You know what else might be cool.  A Star Wars based top down shooter... with all of the typical ships and whatnot and you could pick what ship you want to control.  Of course, it would be cooler if you could be empire ships, but whatever. Or base it on a different movie like Battlestar Gallactica, The Black Hole (cheesy movie, but Maximillian is too cool), or something like that, just not the Rocketeer or the Matrix.  Or you could base it on superheros where you could be Superman in flight, Wonder Woman in her invisible plane, The Flash running quickly, Green Lantern floating about, the Human Torch in flight, and so on and you could fight villanous hordes.  Just don't do Batman unless a bunch of other characters are in the mix too.

[abrannan]

Make it a "BYO shooter" engine.  Allow people to custom create enemies, ships, play styles, backgrounds, bosses, music, etc.  For ideas of engine types and play controls, you need to have the proper education.


Make sure to play:

DoDonpachi - Two selectable weapon styles, two fire modes, two bomb modes, and screens full of enemy bullets.

Time Pilot - multi-directional shooter

Guwange - Assist-style weapon, ability to freeze or slow enemy shots.

Raiden II - classic three weapon style action.

Ikaruga - for the light/dark polarity system.

Rez/Panzer Dragoon Orta - Yes it's not top down, but it's a novel play style

Twinkle Star Sprites - head to head shooter action, sorta like a puzzle game.

I'm sure there are plenty of other ideas to cannibalize.

[Magnet_Eye]

have him check out the dmeos for the shooter on smallrockets.com

ultra assualt and star monkey are really good!

I cannot get this page to open.  Can you post a link?

http://www.smallrockets.com/

[Magnet_Eye]

I have an idea, inspired what NoBonus posted earlier.

How about a cool airship, thats rustic futuristic style, like the technology from the movies Brazil or 12 Monkeys. This ship will travel through time, each level is a different era and you have to fight against all sorts of different enemies. or maybe you have to chase your enemies through time, and you get to fly through all kinds of cool levels, from prehistory and dinosaurs to 1400's England, 1600's Carribean or to Chicago in the 1930's.

who knows, you could do a lot with the whole time traveling theme.  

[Howard_Casto]

My 2 cents.....


Spaceship shooters have been done to death... why not try something more organic?

There have been a few shooters where you control a dragon or serpent instead of a craft.  

Unfortunately none of them really took advantage of the idea (the dragon flew/shot like a regular airplane, not a dragon)

It might make things more interesting and make the game stand out more.....  


Perhaps mutateing powerups like altered beast?

[Khaine]

Hey all, Khaine here.

I am the friend of Stuzza's who is making the game.

First up I would just like to say thanks to all you guys who have been replying and suggesting ideas. Some of them have been really useful, and others have been a little whacky (I especially like the idea of flying around and exploding camels, hehe gribly).

I would like to now take some time and make some specific replies. So lets get started.

From Howard_Casto

Spaceship shooters have been done to death... why not try something more organic?

This is a valid point and I feel I should explain my reasons for making this. Recently I have been working on my main project (which, unless I get requests, I wont be talking about here as its not an arcade game) and the other day Stuzza came up to me and said "Hey, you should make a vertical scroller shoot-em-up", those games rock. So basically I'm doing this as a request, and the request has been for a good old fashioned, classic shoot-em-up. That being said I will try to spice it up a bit.

From Minwah

The only thing I would say is make sure it has some big interesting bosses!!

Consider it done.

From NoBonus

Some games have power-ups you can buy at the end of each level, etc.

I have already though of an idea similar to this. Youll have to wait and see.

Also, I love having at least four different planes to choose from

Can do. Ultimatley, I would like to make this number bigger. See reply to Abrannan below.

From lilwolf

Well... if keeping interests make sure there its adult themed and I will try it!

lol. Adult themes... you also may be interested in my main project.

I would like to see something new and interesting myself.

Always the ultimate dream of any developer Im sure. However, this game is meant to be old-school and arcadey so dont expect too much. That being said, I hope to make it at least a little different.

Everyone likes different powerups.  Make sure you don't drop them down to nothing when you die.... this often makes it a 1player game... You get to a certain point and you go as far as you can... until you die once... and then its over.

One of my friends has also just mentioned this problem. Ive had a couple of ideas on how to resolve it, but havent decided on anything final yet.

Consider different / more then one fire button... I think its something that just isn't added to fighters.  Maybe 3 fire buttons and a bomb?

I have had it recommended not to use too many buttons (approximately 3). At the moment Im thinking of using 2, maybe 3. One for Primary Fire, Secondary Fire, and Special.

Consider adding an object oriented AI for ships.  Some firing where you are... some a little infront of you... some random... This makes the hardest screens... and you can areas with each... or different combinations.

This would be cool, as it adds randomness, and can be done. However it raises a problem. As this game was initially intended to be old-school, it makes it a bit hard to 'learn' the levels and be able to master the game. It makes it hard to be able to brag about highest scores, if everyone is having different experiences.

What do people think about this. Should it be 'hard coded' or should it be more random?

From NoBonus

Of course, instead of losing power-ups, you could always go with a setup like UN Squadron where instead of having 3 to 5 lives, you just have an energy bar and when it's done, you're done.

I had though of having 'hit points' that go down with hits. However, due to other ideas that Ive had, it would become a little to complicated for a 'simple' arcade game. I have instead opted to go for the lives option. Do not fear however, hopefully my solution should please.

From Chris

Be different. Why make it a plane?

Once again, comes down to the old-school request.

From NoBonus

Blood and gore everywhere, great fun.

BWA HA HAAAAA!!! Great minds think alike. If youlike blood and gore, you may be interested in my other project. Once again, its not an arcade game so Ill stop here.

From DaveJ-UK

One thing that really irritates me in a lot of games is how every single enemy fires the same damn little round balls at you. And they all have the same effect on you; you could have ice, fire, poison, etc. damage like in Diablo!

Good point. Interesting... Ill have to consider this.

And big explosions, can't go wrong there. Same for ludicrously powerful power ups.

Never fear, I would never make this kind of game without big explosions, just wouldnt be right.

In regards to powerups, I have had a couple of ideas that should be interesting.

From NoBonus

You know what else might be cool.  A Star Wars based top down shooter

Noooo! Please stop. I think it is safe to say that no Star Wars stuff will ever be in any of my games. Why? 1. I dont want to get sued. 2. I loath Star Wars (and no, Im not a Treckie, I just dont like Star Wars).

From Abrannan

Make it a "BYO shooter" engine.  Allow people to custom create enemies, ships, play styles, backgrounds, bosses, music, etc.  For ideas of engine types and play controls, you need to have the proper education.

Can be done, and in fact probably will be. If I make any custom tools, which I probably will, I will make them available so people can create their own stuff. However, people will still need to have appropriate software, eg Photoshop or such for creating textures, some kind of modeling program, etc. I can also include any necessary documentation that would be needed.

There is also the option of people sending stuff to me and then I can incorporate it 'officially' to any updates.

From Howard_Casto

Perhaps mutateing powerups like altered beast?

Hhmmm... Interesting...

Okay, thats it for specific replies. I know I have been a bit vague in some areas but that has been intentional. I am trying to avoid hype. Hype is an unecessary evil in my opinion. I dont want to go around saying my game is gunna have this and this, and make it out to be the best game ever, only to then have people hate it.

If people have any more ideas and suggestion I would love to hear them. If you want to send me any love (or hate) mail, Stuzza has been kind enough to give me an address with his site at khaine@screenshotarchive.com.

Thanks once again,
Khaine

[EndTwist]

This is maybe a later feature, but give it the possibility to rotate vertically for vertical monitors?

[SirPoonga]

Well, I can tell you what my favorite shooters are and why and that may help you.

Do Don Pachi - DAMN!  very cool.  From each fighter having it's own unique weapon style to the graphics.  I like any scrolling shooter where you hold down the fire button for something, whether it be to charge up a super weapon or like do don pachi it creates a beam of fire (and slows the ship).

19xx, 1943, 194-whatever.  These are my favs and as the series progressed it just kept getting cools.  Here is where holding down the fire charges up your super fire (at least in XX I think).  I play all of them Individual features blur together for me.  I know what features the game has once I start playing it.

[NoBonus]

So Khaine, what is your other project and where can I see these project?  Will a link be installed on www.screenshotarchive.com in the future or do you already have a website for your projects?

NoBonus

[Generic Eric]

Totally cool idea
Here are some semi organized random thoughts.

I like abrannans suggestion about making the game theme configurable.  I would have suggested it myself if it wasn't mentioned. I think if you do that, you will see a community explode.  Stuzza, as an example, seems to really enjoy mamewah, so much so, that he hosts a bunch of the skins, etc

Suggestions
Network play might be cool
Online stats would be cool too
Short load times
Interact with the terrain, like in Xevious where you can blow up the buildings on the ground. If ya do that, then make it so the enemies can blow villagers so that you have to shoot that enemy before they can kill what ever you are protecting
Display stats at the end of the level similar to Terminator 2 (can't think of any other game that does this off hand)
I like the types of power ups, where you collect something, like a super mega gun or sheild or hyperbomb

Bonus games

[Shieldwolf]

Well I agree space shooters are over done one that recently did really well is Ikurga (I not sure on the spelling) Check it out. It's a very simple premiss.

Your guns shoots blue and red. If a bad guy is blue hit them with the red gun. If they are red the blue gun. Likewise you can defend against their attacks by being the same color as their lasers. The trick is you can shoot and be protected at the same time. It sounds easy, but is totally nerve racking and fun.

Also where can we check out your other project?

[NoBonus]

Well I agree space shooters are over done one that recently did really well is Ikurga (I not sure on the spelling) Check it out. It's a very simple premiss.

Your guns shoots blue and red. If a bad guy is blue hit them with the red gun. If they are red the blue gun. Likewise you can defend against their attacks by being the same color as their lasers. The trick is you can shoot and be protected at the same time. It sounds easy, but is totally nerve racking and fun.

Also where can we check out your other project?

Where can I find the game you are talking about "Ikurga"?

[Generic Eric]

Where can I find the game you are talking about "Ikurga"?

Its mentioned earlier in this thread.  I think its called Ikaruga.

Its an import game on dreamcast.  but it was released stateside for the cube.  PLAY IT!  It is awsome.  Its made by treasue.  

[Shieldwolf]

save yourself some import fees and look at it on a gamecube

[Lilwolf]

I just got a new idea (think its new).


How about adding a sudo physics model to it... which will move ships around... And if they crash together great!

And when they die, they fly in the proper direction for a bit before they hit they blow up..

So you could shoot a big ship on the left side, which then shoots to the right and smashes up all the ships in its way...

kinda a domino effect.

[NoBonus]

Of course, if during the inevitable stage where you are flying over water, it would be cool if you could either land your ship on the water or go the water to avoid enimies.  Of course, this would require elevation control of some sort... this could be facilitated by allowing the player to switch back and forth from top down shooter to side scrolling shooter during gameplay...

[Khaine]

Hey guys, me again.

Sorry for not replying for a while but I have been preoccupied by some damned uni assignments (why wont they leave me alone? Dont they know making games is more important).

Well it seems that having the ability to hold down the fire button to do something is being a fairly popular request. I wasn't initially going to include this, but it looks like i might have to. I think I'll go with the whole charge-up angle.

Also I think its time to ask a fairly important question. What kind of machines are you people using (for your arcades)?

I ask this because some of the ideas, which are cool, would not really be feasable on an older machine. If, however, you all have pretty decent computers, then it may be possible to include some of these more 'advanced' ideas.

For example, having enemies that once the have been killed spiral out of control, shooting in all different directions as they go, and finally slamming into the ground can be done, but it would require a more advanced physics and collision detection system. This would then boost the minimum requirements.

Well how about this for an idea. Say I make a 'basic' game first, one that more closely resembles the arcade games of old. Then, if this goes down well, I could consider making a sequel (or add-on) including all these more advanced ideas. What do you think?

And reading this, if you are concerned about how much it is gunna cost, never fear. I dont plan on charging.

I would also like to point out some limitations this game is gunna have that i already know of. First up is music. Its not gunna have any. Why? Because im not a composer. That being said, I plan on there being a sub-directory called 'Music' into which you can place MP3s and the game will then play them.

Second is textures. I am by no means a texture artist. As such, the textures in the game are probably going to be pretty plain. If anyone knows of anybody who may be willing to help in this department could you please let me know.

I could also do with some concept art. After all, the more the merrier.

And rest assured, anyone who does contribute will be credited. In the credits, in the game, in any files they create etc.

Well thats about all for now

Later,
Khaine

[NoBonus]

If you arehaving trouble with textures, you could always make this a Tron-themed top down shooter.  Maybe you could drive a recognizer. But the textures would just all be shades of gray with neon outlines.

I think making a basic and advanced version of this game is brilliant and so is having the music being user defined.  The music being user defined not only saves time on the creation side, but allows the user to make the game more "their own".

[Khaine]

In regards to my 'other project'.

This main project is an RPG (as yet un-named), as always, with a twist.

The only twist that I'll give away at the monent is that in this game dont be expecting to see any humans, elves, dwarves, orcs, goblins, or any of the other major cliche races. And from that, if you are wondering what kind of creature you will be playing, they are called Fates. Think an elf cross-bred with a vampire and you have a Fate.

As i noted in my previous post, i am not much of a texture artist. This shouldnt hopefully pose too much of a problem in this game as it is going to use cartoon rendering. I think playing an interactive cartoon is kinda cool.

And dont be expecting sunshine and happiness either. There wont be much saving of princesses from evil tyrants in this game. In fact, you can be the evil tyrant if you wish, and behead said princesses (yes i know, im evil. And i love it).

If your wondering about a release date, it wont be any time soon. I have been working on the engine, and am about to upgrade it from DirectX 8 to DirectX 9. I am hoping it will be done within a year though.

It doesnt have a website yet. You can however go to http://homepages.picknowl.com.au/lordkhaine/MOD.htm and when I have enough stuff worth posting this site will be updated. I hope to get a proper address one day, but that wont be until its close to release. The above address has some stuff i was working on for a DungeonSiege MOD. A few of the ideas on that site will be carried over into this new game.

If you are still interested let me know, and I will keep you updated with its progress.

Later
Khaine

[fredster]

I think the best thing is to have branches in the game.  When you shoot something, it takes you to another route, like House of the Dead.

Majestic 12 can do that.