I saw something distrubing at the auction

[fredster]

I was at the arcade auction this weekend, and I saw some disturbing new trends.

There were two cocktails there, and they were mame'ed.  They took quarters.

They were running arcade OS, that was clear.  The games were the old classics.  Nobody was concerned when they ran both asteroids and stargate.  One is a xy vector and the other is raster.  One had a sticker intel pentium III on the side of it even.  They just said "here's a coctail that has a bunch o' games on it..."

They sold them as if they were regular games.  They coined up too.  I don't know if home buyers got them or vendors.  But it looks like that's begining to happen.

There are lots of these 3 in 1's and 9 in 1's too.  These are vboards from asia, and they aren't legal eagles either.  They went for at least $800 up to $1400.  Some of them were new.

Things like this can ruin our little community fast.

[Dave_K.]

At the San Jose Auction I saw a Dragons Lair cocktail machine.  If you check KLOV you will see no such machine was ever made.  Before the auction we looked inside and it was simply a cheap Apex DVD player with hacked controls (and probably one of those cheap $9 DL dvds).  It did have really nice looking artwork BTW.  

When it came time to auction, the auctioneer just said here is a really clean DL cocktail table.  It went for between $700-800!

[Edgedamage]

Hope you don't think things like this have not happened before. In 91 I was at an auction and seen this game called JP the video looked fuzzy. We opened it up and found a genesis running a jurassic park cart. The thing was hacked to take coins. I have seen more clone street fighter boards than I care to. Over 50% of boards in dyanmo cabinets are clones/bootlegs. Now all operators have to do is learn how to setup a computer with mame. They were Building their own arcade controls before mame was even an idea. When the price of VGA to CGA converters fall to a reasonable price the problem will only get worse.

[NoBonus]

So what steps can we as an online community take to prevent these forgeries from ruining MAME as we know it?  I would think education is the key to solving this problem, but it seems doubtful that we would be able to educate enough people (as most won't want or care to listen). We could start a terrorist network and blow up forgery cabs on sale as cabs for public use...


NoBonus

[fredster]

I would think education is the key to solving this problem,

No, education doesn't work in any way shape or form for this situation. This is about money.  These people don't give a crap about Mame, other than it's a very useful bootleg tool. If they can make a buck doing this, then they will.  Who's gonna catch them?

 The people who still hold copyright will go after the mame sites first, then the rom burners, etc.  Luckily, most of them don't have the resources (lawyers guns and money) to follow up.

I have or have had several machines with old bootleg boards. This is similar to '91, but worse.  Back then you at least had to have some kind of board to do this.  Namco is still enforcing the bootleg problem on Ebay. I bid on a couple of bootleg boards in the past and they were yanked.  If the situation gets to where people are making a lot of money off of it, some people will crack down.



 

[ChadTower]

On the other hand... do we care?  Sure, people will still be paying $800 for fake cabs... but will that diminish our ability to get authentics?  Or will it make it easier since people will not want the real deal and will instead opt to pay the high price for something easier to maintain?

[Spaced Invader]

On the other hand... do we care?  Sure, people will still be paying $800 for fake cabs... but will that diminish our ability to get authentics?  Or will it make it easier since people will not want the real deal and will instead opt to pay the high price for something easier to maintain?

No, dude...

The worry is about the game makers closing down our candy store (MAME) if they start loosing profit...or if they think they are loosing profit.

[maraxle]

The worry is about the game makers closing down our candy store (MAME) if they start loosing profit...or if they think they are loosing profit.

This is going to be an unpopular opinion, but so what if they shut down the MAME project?  The source is freely available, so it can't die, no matter how much they want it to.  Even if it wasn't available, something else would come along.

[flampoo]

Regardless of what happens with ROMS, the program itself is just fine. Nothing is going to ruin MAME. It's a legal program.

[SirPeale]

Okay, back to rehashing what most of you should already know.

It has been declared, in a US court of law, that emulators are legal.  IE the program itself.  Nothing is going to shut it down.  Besides that, it's an international project, spanning dozens of countries.

Amendments to the DMCA have even made ROM images legal, due to their age and the fact that the original hardware is no longer manufactured/supported.

Of course, intelectual property rights are different.  Namco, for example, still makes Pac-Man/Ms Pac-Man/Galaga machines.  If someone were to start making them in the US, they'd (I'm sure) do their best to make them eat their own socks.

In Asia, where these copyrights don't apply, there isn't anything that can be done about it, and that's why you see a ton of 3-in-1 boards coming from there.

[fredster]

Peale makes a point that emulators are legal.  

That's right. Mame as a program will be okay.  Just like windows media player is okay.  It's like the crackdown on mp3's.  That's my point.

What isn't okay is people making machines with roms.  They can make life difficult for a lot of people if they want.  I'm sure Namco doesn't have much respect for emulators, legal or not.

[maraxle]

Emulators are OK as long as you're not defeating / circumventing any copy protection / encryption schemes and don't contain any copyrighted materials (like sound samples, screen shots, roms, stolen code, etc).  

Does MAME circumvent any copy protection schemes?  

An area that I don't think has been fully explored is its use of trademarks.  Does it contain any trademarked names like Pac-Man or Donkey Kong?  The whole "listinfo" thing seems to indicate that it does.  Is it legal to produce a product that contains trademarked names?

[microwrx]

An area that I don't think has been fully explored is its use of trademarks.  Does it contain any trademarked names like Pac-Man or Donkey Kong?  The whole "listinfo" thing seems to indicate that it does.  Is it legal to produce a product that contains trademarked names?

If that were the case authors of novels would be in big trouble.

[maraxle]

If that were the case authors of novels would be in big trouble.

How so?  I can't remember the last book I read that mentioned a specific brand name, video game, etc.*  Plus, even if they did, they could potentially have permission.  Somehow I doubt Namco gave the MAME team permission to use the name Pac-Man in their program.

Edit:  To be fair, I mostly read classics, so they wouldn't be in there anyway...

Edit2:  Also, trademarks have more stringent requirements that apply to products that fall into the same category.  Since MAME and video games would fall into the same general category of either entertainment products, or electronics, the protections on names are a little more well-defined than when you cross categories.

[SirPeale]

Using the name as a descriptive factor is not against a copyright.  If it was, no one would be able to sell anything without having to license the image.

Using the likeness to promote a product would infringe trademarks and/or copyright.

So the -listinfo output does not infringe, since it's a descriptive factor.

[maraxle]

Using the name as a descriptive factor is not against a copyright.  If it was, no one would be able to sell anything without having to license the image.

Using the likeness to promote a product would infringe trademarks and/or copyright.

So the -listinfo output does not infringe, since it's a descriptive factor.

They don't properly designate the owners of the trademarks they are using.  They claim copyright on the source code, but use the word Pac-Man throughout, never noting that they don't own the word Pac-Man.  Nor does the listinfo designate trademark ownership.  Take a look at AMD's marketing materials that include the word Pentium (a trademark of Intel) for the right way to do that.

The more important question is that of circumventing copy protection or encryption.  That's a violation of the DMCA, no ifs, ands, or buts.

[Oldskool]

Does it really matter if the MAME project is shut down?

Do we really need more games?

[SirPeale]

They don't properly designate the owners of the trademarks they are using.  They claim copyright on the source code, but use the word Pac-Man throughout, never noting that they don't own the word Pac-Man.  Nor does the listinfo designate trademark ownership.  Take a look at AMD's marketing materials that include the word Pentium (a trademark of Intel) for the right way to do that.

You're talking about marketing materials vs. descriptive materials again.  You don't have to state trademark ownership when you're simply describing something.  Each game in itself defines that @ run time.

The more important question is that of circumventing copy protection or encryption.  That's a violation of the DMCA, no ifs, ands, or buts.

Again, it depends on the state of the hardware.  Obsolete hardware that is no longer supported doesn't come in this category.

[maraxle]

They don't properly designate the owners of the trademarks they are using.  They claim copyright on the source code, but use the word Pac-Man throughout, never noting that they don't own the word Pac-Man.  Nor does the listinfo designate trademark ownership.  Take a look at AMD's marketing materials that include the word Pentium (a trademark of Intel) for the right way to do that.

You're talking about marketing materials vs. descriptive materials again.  You don't have to state trademark ownership when you're simply describing something.  Each game in itself defines that @ run time.

Look at mame.net.  Check out gamelist.txt.  There's a huge list of games that it's claiming compatibility with.  That's clearly marketing material.  Plus, I would argue that listinfo is marketing as well.  "Here's a list of games our product supports."

The more important question is that of circumventing copy protection or encryption.  That's a violation of the DMCA, no ifs, ands, or buts.

Again, it depends on the state of the hardware.  Obsolete hardware that is no longer supported doesn't come in this category.

That exemption is loosely worded.  Define obsolete.  I'm sure there are plenty of games in there that use some sort of protection that are not considered obsolete.  Plus, look at the re-releases of Ms. Pac-Man and such.  Suddenly, it doesn't look so obsolete anymore.  Also, the exemption is a temporary one.

All I'm saying is that if someone wants to shut it down, they will.  MAME is not 100% clean.  Their website alone is filled with enough infringements to cause some trouble.  Plus, if some company that owns the rights to a game supported in MAME started threatening lawsuits, how much money does the MAME project have saved up for lawyer's fees?

[fredster]

Does it really matter if the MAME project is shut down?

Do we really need more games?

Oldskool, there are lots of reasons for Mame.  The primary purpose of the mame project wasn't to give free games to the world, it was to preserve the games.  If it wasn't for Mame, lots of these obscure games would be lost.  Sure, some of these games are crap, but that's not for us to just let them die out.

Games like tempest, gyruss, galaga3, vigilate etc would fade as soon as the boards or the freaky monitors died.

The real world result is that, plus the ability to make fake machines with no software royalties.  That's the rub.

It's like the nobel peace prize.  Nobel invented dynamite as a tool for demolition for construction of railroads.  But people saw it and used it to rob banks and weapons.

[SirPeale]

Look at mame.net.  Check out gamelist.txt.  There's a huge list of games that it's claiming compatibility with.  That's clearly marketing material.  Plus, I would argue that listinfo is marketing as well.  "Here's a list of games our product supports."

You can not claim marketing on Mame because it's a free product.  Written in people's free time, given away freely.  You fail to make this distinction.  Although, yes, there are free tools that are 'marketed,' Mame does not fall into this category.

The more important question is that of circumventing copy protection or encryption.  That's a violation of the DMCA, no ifs, ands, or buts.

Again, it depends on the state of the hardware.  Obsolete hardware that is no longer supported doesn't come in this category.

That exemption is loosely worded.  Define obsolete.  I'm sure there are plenty of games in there that use some sort of protection that are not considered obsolete.  Plus, look at the re-releases of Ms. Pac-Man and such.  Suddenly, it doesn't look so obsolete anymore.  Also, the exemption is a temporary one.

The original hardware is obsolete because it is no longer supported.  The new boards run similar code, but it has been changed in a few ways.

Loosely worded things can cause be interpeted many ways, especially if you have a clever lawyer.

All I'm saying is that if someone wants to shut it down, they will.  MAME is not 100% clean.  Their website alone is filled with enough infringements to cause some trouble.  Plus, if some company that owns the rights to a game supported in MAME started threatening lawsuits, how much money does the MAME project have saved up for lawyer's fees?

Again, *emulation* IS legal.  About all they could do would be to ask them to remove screenshots, artwork and samples.

[DaveMMR]

All I'm saying is that if someone wants to shut it down, they will.  MAME is not 100% clean.  Their website alone is filled with enough infringements to cause some trouble.  Plus, if some company that owns the rights to a game supported in MAME started threatening lawsuits, how much money does the MAME project have saved up for lawyer's fees?

I don't really think the MAME team has to worry about being sued anytime soon.  You need to remember that MAME is not exactly a household word, and while we enjoy that wonderful program, most of the mainstream world has no idea what we're talking about.  

(I of course make this assumption based on my friends and acquaintances, most of whom don't know 'what a Mame is')

Remember, calling in the lawyers is expensive, so I don't think game companies are going to go that route unless absolutely necessary.

Now, if I may compare Apples to Oranges: the music industry had to* really go to extremes (suing their own customers) because (according to them) they were losing money.  Now videogames are booming.   They've gone from a hobby for adolescent boys to a multi-billion dollar entertainment industry.  None of these companies are going to start a war with MAME over decades old games that a large, dedicated (but still an overall minority) group enjoy.    

(* whether the RIAA really had to sue their customers is open to debate for another thread on another board).

Also keep in mind, as Peale said, that emulators are legal.  You can say "oh but they mention Pac-Man" all you want, but it's legal, plain and simple.  Colecovisions Expanision Module* (that played Atari 2600 carts) was also legal (after court battles) and they used the word Atari pretty prominently (as far as I know, but who would buy a product without knowing what it does).

(* perhaps the wrong example but you get the gist)

Long story short, MAME is pretty much safe.  Don't sweat it.

That's just my pair of tokens.  History has proven wrong before and may do so again.

[Oldskool]

Oldskool, there are lots of reasons for Mame.  The primary purpose of the mame project wasn't to give free games to the world, it was to preserve the games.  If it wasn't for Mame, lots of these obscure games would be lost.  

Has this not been accomplished? The classics have been preserved.

Mame will never be eradicated, but if further development was to cease, is that a terrible thing?

If Golden Tee 2003 isn't emulated, is it the end of the world?  I keep hearing that all of the new interest in Mame could shut down "the scene", and that leads me to believe that it is about getting free games.

IMO, the romanticism / nostalgia / preservation angles have all been covered.

[DaveMMR]

Oldskool, there are lots of reasons for Mame.  The primary purpose of the mame project wasn't to give free games to the world, it was to preserve the games.  If it wasn't for Mame, lots of these obscure games would be lost.  

Has this not been accomplished? The classics have been preserved.

Mame will never be eradicated, but if further development was to cease, is that a terrible thing?

If Golden Tee 2003 isn't emulated, is it the end of the world?  I keep hearing that all of the new interest in Mame could shut down "the scene", and that leads me to believe that it is about getting free games.

IMO, the romanticism / nostalgia / preservation angles have all been covered.

You're not thinking foward... in 20 years the games you love now could be obsolete.  

[maraxle]

Loosely worded things can cause be interpeted many ways, especially if you have a clever lawyer.

And who is going to be able to afford a better lawyer, the MAME project or a corporation that owns/buys the rights to a particular game?

Emulation is legal.  I never said it wasn't.  The MAME project is not clean though.  All you need is one company to push any of the infringement issues and it could be pulled.  I mean seriously, if someone was pinning a trademark infringement suit on you for a project you work on in your free time, would you risk paying out thousands or even millions in damages or legal fees, or would you sign a little paper that says you'll not work on that project anymore?  Alternatively, all you need is a SCO to say that some of the code is stolen.  Some of those newer games could have algorithms and protection schemes that are still viable under the DMCA.

I know that pointing this out on here is like talking to a brick wall, so I'm going to shut up now.  Keep believing what you want to believe, but make sure to cover your head when it all blows up.

[SirPeale]

Loosely worded things can cause be interpeted many ways, especially if you have a clever lawyer.

And who is going to be able to afford a better lawyer, the MAME project or a corporation that owns/buys the rights to a particular game?

Higher prices do not always make a better lawyer.

Do you have any legal background?  I'm curious.

[fredster]

...keep hearing that all of the new interest in Mame could shut down "the scene", and that leads me to believe that it is about getting free games.

Oldskool,

If it were to shut down now, I agree, MAME would have accomplished it's cited goal.  The examples I cited (mp3 player vs ripped mp3 songs / dynamite) was that there are always uses that the original designer didn't intend or forsee.  (Think about cloning for instance)

Mame is legal, but the roms are not.  Some people will likely get busted for making fake machines somewhere.  I think some are being made that aren't arcade machines.  I was at the mall a few weeks ago and some arab looking guys were selling a machine that hooked up and played over 60 old games.  It had everything from duckhunt to galaga in a box. It was marked Malaysia.  It could be some kind of hack on z80 chipped roms, or it could have been an intell chip running mame.

It's world wide and widespread, that's for sure.  But if the software people want to, they have the model from the music industry to come in and get right to us.  over 2000 downloaders had to deal with it.

GT 2003 would be the one to start it.  I posted a request for an emulator and got some really bad responses about even asking for it or about it.  IT would be livid I'm sure.  They are still making money from GT 3D in parts and accessories.