Atari Showcase 33 Cab button and stick replacements

[Demo85]

Hello, won a Capcom vs SNK cab off a auction sight unseen. While it did turn on and work it's in rough shape. After evaluating the cab and seeing it doesn't have a CRT (has the cheapest 16:9 monitor I've ever seen in it) and how the wiring has been spliced and cut a whole bunch I've decided to pull everything out and just rebuild it with a emulation PC in it with a 35 inch Arcooda monitor in it. I'm mostly a console type of guy so I don't know anything about arcade sticks and buttons. My first question is what buttons and sticks do I put in it? It can with IL button that take a microswitch in the bottom and oddly I had a ton of that style switch from modding lightgun triggers, not sure if that's the way to go. I've heard of the name brand Sanwa before, not sure if that's the move? For the stick I have no clue, I know you have different gates and I see so many styles. Can anyone shed some light on this for me? The buttons are 30mm and the stick hole is 45mm. Is the Ultimarc I-PAC the way to go to get this to interface with a computer once I'm done? If not what do I use?



Here is the current control deck. Thinking of just doing a fresh vinyl wrap on the metal deck, shouldn't be hard. I do want to replace the plexiglass, I see sources online for the 1/8th thick sheets online. Any tips for cutting it and drilling the holes? I haven't worked with plexiglass in 20 years and then I just made a custom cluster for my old Mustang.

Thanks for reading, sorry if these questions are super basic.

[Xiaou2]

The first thing you are going to want to do... is to replace, or re-drill the control panel.

Angled sticks are a Horrible user experience,  and never should have been installed like that

The reason is... you are always looking at the screen, not the stick.. and so you will automatically be thinking
that  "UP"  is towards the monitor.  But since your stick is angled.. Up will be diagonal... so you will end up
making the wrong move.

Its different from holding a gamepad in your hand, and sitting at an odd angle... because the gamepad's UP,
is always locked in place.  Its always UP in the controllers orientation.. in your hands.

With a control panel, you cant really Feel which way is Up.  Especially since a Joystick doesnt have that
gamepad Cross shape, for even a Tactile feel.


 As for Sticks and Buttons...

 Ive personally always preferred the Happs Competitions, for Fighting games.. and an overall decent stick for everything.

 If you Only played older classic games like Robotron, Mr Do, Dig Dug.. etc..  then you would want Wico Leaf-Switch sticks.
 These are not good for Fighting games, however.

 For buttons...

 In Most cases... I prefer the standard Happs Concave buttons.  The concave shape automatically cradles your fingers into the center of
the buttons... making them more comfortable, and easy to tell which button your fingers are on.

 However... I would choose at least one button to be a Pinball Leafswitch button, for playing certain classic games.  Leafswitch buttons
are perfect for games where you need really fast fire rates, and or where you have to repeatedly press them, through the entire game.
They are faster than Microswitches, and are FAR less fatiguing... If you know how to use them in the correct way.

 To use a long-travel leafswitch button properly... you must realize that you dont need to press them all the way to the bottom.  Instead,
you want to do something called  "FEATHERING".   You push the button down to the center.. where the leafs will make contact, and fire...
And then.. you lightly "Vibrate" your finger.

 The two leafs can make and break contact, within the thickness of a piece of paper... so it barely takes any distance or effort, to easily
cause the button to fire rapidly, and repeatedly.

 The length of the long travel leaf buttons.. help prevent you from accidentally pushing them, when your fingers are just resting on them.
This is a problem with certain MODERN made leafswitch button offerings... where even light finger pressure will accidentally trigger them.

 With microswitch buttons... games like Galaga can be very fatiguing, after only 5 minutes worth of play.   Meanwhile, with a leaf button,
you could play that game for hours, without any fatigue.   This is because standard microswitches have a pretty strong spring resistance
that has to be over-came, each time its pressed.   Over the years, new microswitch offerings have came out, that require less and less
spring resistance.. making them easier to press, and thus less fatiguing.  However, even the lightest pressure Micros, are not as easy
and non-fatiguing as using a long travel leafswitch.

 Microswitch buttons are also very loud and "Clicky".  This is most notable, when your game volume isnt that loud, and you are not in
a loud arcade environment.  But in a quiet room.. it can get annoying, especially at night when others in the house, might be trying to sleep.

 As for Leaf Sticks vs Microswitch Sticks... you get a more quieter experience, AND... since the centering is done by a rubber grommet,
your stick does not tend to slam to the edges hard.. like with a microswitch stick.   The rubber helps to absorb impacts based vibrations,
leading to less hand fatigue.  HOWEVER... just like the Leaf-Buttons.. you often dont want to push the sticks all the way to the edges.
The leaf contacts will often register long before your stick hits the outer edges of the stick.  If you push all the way to the edges... it will
feel very fatiguing... as the further away from the center your stick is... the greater the resistance levels.


 So, IMO..  I would recommend two rows of 3 Happs concave micro-switch buttons.  And at least one Leafswitch button, placed slightly
diagonally under them... similar to the layout of Mortal Kombat 3's  "Run"  button.   In that way, you can use it for Rapidfire games,
shmups, and classic games... as well as the run button for MK3.

 For the stick, Id use the Happs Competitions... in line with the buttons.  HOWEVER... Id ALSO place a leaf-switch stick diagonally
up above the Happs sticks.  In that way, your hand can reach either stick... and you can choose whichever you want to use, depending
on the games you choose to play.   You could even potentially use a wico command stick, that has a trigger button on top, so you can
play games like Tron, Mad Planets, and other Dual Control games that also feature a Spinner.

 Id also add a Spinner or Two to the Control Panel... for Spinner games like Tempest, Arkanoid, Star Trek, Tron, Mad Planets,
Supersprint, and many other Driving / Racing games.

---------------------------------
-                                        -
-   [L]                                 -
-                                        -
-       [H]    ooo                   -
-                ooo      [ S ]      -
-             x                         -
---------------------------------

L = Leafswitch
H = Happs Comp Stick
S = Spinner
X = Pinball long travel leafswitch

 Note - Do not stack the sticks directly on top of each other, or your wrist/arm will hit the bottom stick, when using it
By adding a slight diagonal mount, your arm wont hit the other stick.

 Also... Do NOT curve your button rows !!   This is a very common mistake that so many people make.  My former self
included... which caused me to have to redo my entire Control Panel as a result.   While curved buttons look nice visually,
and save you almost an inch in space... It causes you to lose track of where they are, when you are playing.

 Your keyboards keys, are in a straight line for a good reason.  Your fingers sit directly above them.. and you know exactly
where they are located, because they are in a straight line.  If the keys were on a curve, and you were not looking at the
keyboard when you tried to type on them... you would accidentally hit the edges of the buttons, or potentially hit the
wrong buttons.

 I think a lot of people also try to make buttons aligned by tracing their fingers, while their hands are flat on a surface.
The problem with this.. is that when you play.. you dont have your hand flat.  You bend your fingers at the first
knuckle, downwards, to give you better leverage / strength, and control.

 Trying to push a button down with your fingers being flat.. would be very fatiguing, and give you far less strength,
and control.  Again.. think about how you actually Type on your Keyboard.  Your hands are not flat, when you type.

 The other thing about Curves.. is that every hand is different in size, shape, and finger lengths.  Where as if you use
a straight layout, it fits everyones hands / fingers.


 If you intend to add a trackball..  do not simply place it perfectly in the center.   Make sure that the nearest joystick is
about 10 or more inches away from the center of the ball... else you are likely going to smash your hands into it, when
rolling it hard and fast.  Buttons are very low.. so you generally dont have worry about them... as long as they are at
least like 5 inches away from the balls center.

 Do not expect to use a Trackball for Spinner games.  While you can technically do it... since your ball will often move
at an odd upwards or downwards vector.. your control of the speed of your character will be "Off".  It will never be as
precise as needed, to play spinner games "Good".

 If you do add spinners..  Id also recommend adding pull out racing pedals, for each player, under the cabinet.
That way you can play 2 player Supersprint, Championship Sprint, and other Racing games like Sega's Turbo,
TX-1, Pole Position, and many others.

And finally...

 To add Tactile Feedback..  rather than using a Subwoofer..  buy a set of  "Bass Shaker"  Transducers.  I recommend
the ones they sell at Parts Express.  Use the ones that are at least 4" in diameter  (as the smallest ones are not
reliable).   These things are like subwoofers, but without the cone to move air.  They merely make extremely
powerful vibrations.   This is AMAZING for games.  You will feel every Hit, Thump, and other vibrational effects.
This is very different from a vibration motor... and much more Powerfully Tactile, than a typical Subwoofer.

 Mount these to the under side of the CP, or maybe on the rear side of the panel, that is nearest each player.
The vibrations will travel pretty far.. but you should do some various positional mounting tests, to see how
well the effects are felt.. before choosing a permanent mount.

[Demo85]

Thanks for the clear information. Your point about the angled stick really makes sense. I booted it up and played a little SNK vs Capcom before I tore it all apart and it felt awkward. I figured I just needed more time on a stick vs D Pad to get my combos down. My friends group and kids play on D pads, Sega Saturn controller with adapters for most cases. But now you mention it the angle of it wasn't helping. If I'm going to redrill the entire deck I'd like to figure out how to also make a 4 button Neogeo pattern work. Should I just do two rows of 4? or can I do a top row of 4 and a bottom row of 3? That sounds silly now that I mention it. Do you know of any templets I can download and print out to make this easy on me? Have to poke around for a decent price on the sheet metal for the deck, I'm assuming I can use wood but if I was going to still do plexiglass on top it would have to be pretty thin and require bracing. Though As I look at it I got plenty of wood on the mounting lip if I wanted to router down so I have the depth for a thicker plywood. Will have to think about that one. I was planning on putting a 5 inch spacer between the pedestal and the control deck anyways since we are kinda tall people and at stock height even my wife has to hunch over to play. My wife is dying to get classic games like Pacman and frogger up and running haha. I wouldn't mind a track ball, mostly for Golden Tee but in my head i'm kinda thinking i'd eventually build multiple control panels and just have them quick connecters for the wiring.

Good tips on the sound setup as well. I really like high quality sound with all my setups and was already looking at speakers to mount that would fit where the factory ones are.
 

[Xiaou2]

Most every Arcade game that exists... uses a wood control panel, topped with Plexiglass.

- Happ Buttons are adjustable in depth, and can be mounted to Wood or Metal panels
- Happs Joysticks are designed to sit under a wood control panel
 (Which tends to be particle board, maybe 3/4" thickness... I cant recall exactly)
 (However, if you want to raise them higher, you can partially route the wood, or use a Metal Mounting Bezel)

- Most Japanese Controllers, might be designed for metal control panels.. as they started using a generic plastic cabinet design
  *That said, I think many people route wood thinner, or use metal mounting bezels, or mount them on top.. under the plexiglass
   (only problem with mounting under plexi/artwork.. is if you ever need to service them, it will be a bit more work)


 Ive came up with a Mockup idea... based on your specs, and other games Id highly recommend playing...

- The top blue buttons, would be for Neo Geo. The straight line is better than the original method
- The Green sticks are Happs Competition sticks
- The Left Red stick, is a Trigger Stick.  This could be a Tron Handle stick, or a Balltop/Bat with top button
- The Right Red stick, is a Dedicated 4-Way.. for playing Pacman, and other 4way games
- The Purple Button, is the Pinball Leafswitch button
- The Gray Button, is for Defender (reverse button)
- The Orange things are Spinners.  You an could use Up/Down spinner on the left side, for Discs of Tron.. as well as to use an another button (such as Defender Reverse, MK3 Run, etc)

 This will allow you to play Most Arcade games, with the best Controller Options.. while still having extremely good Comfort  (You dont have to rest your arms on top of other controllers, as everything is adjusted to your arms playing angles)

 I recommend making a Cardboard mockup (use a few sheets thickness, glued together), and mounting the controllers to it.. for a Comfort Test, before settling on Exact Spacing Positions.  Have another person testing at the same time, to make sure both of you are not getting in the way of each others limbs.

 Note:  If you dont care about a dedicated 4way,  add another 8-way leafwitch stick... which will make Robotron easier to play (otherwise, you will have to use the Comps, or the trigger stick + a comp)

 I dont know what the current options are for Trigger Balltops, and Bats.  Though, one might be able to
hack a button onto a stick, as another option.  Or hack an older Computer stick, like the Wico Command stick, to the Panel.


 - The Trigger stick is needed for games like Tron, where you aim with the spinner.. move with the stick.. and fire with the top button.  Even if you are not a fan of Tron.. Mad Planets,  is worth having these controller options.  There are many other games that you can play, using these controls as well.

- There are only a few games that use an UP/Down spinner. Discs of Tron being the most famous of them. However, the additional button presses.. will give you options for other games.  You could daisy chain wire these buttons, off of the other buttons.

- You might add a 2nd pinball button to Each side of your Control panel.. for Pinball games.  But since your CP is too wide to use both at the same time.. use the button on top of the panel + the button on the side of the cabinet.   That said, using microswitch buttons for pinball isnt that big of a compromise.  Its just about how smooth leafs Feel, and react.

[Xiaou2]

As for Sound...

 Im an Audiophile, and Love having the best sound possible... even if Arcades themselves, didnt have the best speakers.  Being that you have a pedestal cabinet.. you might want to double your sound system as a Juke-Box, for listening to some great music.. when you are not playing games.

 I personally fell in love with  EPI 100  speakers.  These are 70s era Magic.. that will EASILY TROUNCE speakers costing +$3000.   You just want to make sure that they have the Upgraded Tweeter version (which has a plastic bezel mount.  The older tweeter model uses a fiberboard mount.. and they are far less capable tweeters)

 Make sure the Woofers are originals too.  Pretty easy to tell, as EPI / Genesis uses a smaller diameter dust cover on their cones... compared to modern woofers.  EPI woofer are very special, in that they have extremely heavy and powerful magnets.. AND their coils are wound with a heavier gauge wire, to automatically filter out the highs (eliminating the need for another crossover component, which could theoretically cause slight changes to the sound output)

 EPI  was eventually sold to  Genesis Physics... and so you can find similar used speakers, in both EPI and Genesis branding.  In fact, Genesis actually created car speakers for a Japanese car that was sold in the USA.  I think the main selling point of that car, was like a 12 speaker sound system... using Genesis speakers.  I would have loved to hear what that cars sound system sounded like...

 I picked up my EPI speakers for $100 refoamed, off Craigslist... which is insanity, when you realize what these things can do.   They have deep, fast, clean, punchy bass (a lot deeper than you would ever imagine from such a small cabinet size).  And the Inverted tweeter.. thats where the Magic really happens.  It produces the Widest, Deepest, and Tallest, 3d Holographic Soundstage... that Ive ever experienced in my life.   You can stand almost anywhere in the room, and still get a near perfect "Sweet Spot" stereo experience.  These things are virtual distortion free..  so you will hear new things in music.. that no other speakers or headphones, will be able to reveal.  In my case.. I was finally able to fully understand a singer lyrics... in parts of the song that I previously could never understand.

 Another great thing about the EPIs, is Bass that sounds "Musically Accurate" to real instruments.. mostly because of its Sealed Cabinet design.  Modern speakers that have Ports.. make very Artificial sounding bass.  Many people dont really recognize the artificial sound... until there is an A to B comparison.  Then its night to day difference.  For me, the difference almost made me Cry.  I then became so Angered as what I had been deprived of... and set my 90s era Technique Tower speakers, out on the curb for garbage collection.  I can never go back to ported speakers.

 Now.. There is a website:  Humanspeakers.com  which sells all new parts for EPI / Genesis speakers, as well as a Kit for building your own.  The kit is a little under $400.  He used to work for the company.. and uses the same methods for hand building the drivers.  That said, Ive never purchased anything from him, so I cant verify if these parts are 100% equal.. or even superior... to the Originals.   The site has detailed specs, crossover wiring, and cabinet dimensions, for all of their Models of speakers.  So if you buy a kit, use the cabinet specs from the EPI 100... IMO.


 Otherwise... If you are simply looking for dirt cheap speakers, that sound pretty good... Id look at buying some used Phillips speakers, that come from their boom boxes.  I used to collect cheap used speakers, from thrift shops... and out of all the various mini systems, Phillips had the Best sound quality of all of the major brands... and it wasnt even Close.

 That said... the high frequency driver on Phillps, while decent in detail.. can get very Hot/Harsh, depending on what music you play.  They dont roll off anything.  Software EQ from your OS, might be in order to prevent highs from becoming too harsh / hot.

 I used to own one of Phillips WOOX mini-systems.. and man, the Thumpin Clean Bass that baby put out.. was Amazing.  Unfortunately, the woox passive radiators developed foam rot.. making them useless.  I believe some of their woox units used Plastic for their flat-cones.. which would last forever.. but I didnt have that version.

 Anyway, its their woofer driver quality, that outshines the budget competition, by miles.  Where as most companies use some dirt cheap chinese made drivers.. The phillips speakers Id got hold of, had woofers made in Taiwan, from a higher end audio company called Easteck.  I think Phillips specifically had these drivers made to spec.. so that they had greater Excursion range, to prevent the woofers from distorting from the cones over-excursions in heavy bass + loud volume levels.


 I personally dont like Subwoofers for most Music.  It just muddies the sound a bit.  Id rather have a higher powered woofer, or speakers that use Passive Radiators, to boost the Bass low end.  I also dont like Ported speakers.. or speakers with long snaked ports (like B0se).  Those always create an artificial sounding bass.

 And as said... If I want heavy vibrations.. Id use a Bass-Shaker Transducer, instead of a sub.  No need to bother your neighbors, to get heavy vibrations, when you place these things under your seat.  They also only need like 20 watts each, to create massive vibrational forces.  Forces so strong.. that at too high a level.. it will vibrate your eyes to the point where your monitor looks like a Blur (cant recognize anything onscreen).

[Demo85]

Do you have any opinions on this lay out? I have some 1/4 ply I'm gonna mock up some layouts on to try before I move to the metal for my cab



For my speakers, I want to keep the speakers in the cab. I know that's limiting but it's what I want to do.

[Xiaou2]

Dont Do it !!

I once built a control panel with a Curved button layout like that.  It was AWFUL.

It looks like it would fit your fingers Ergonomically.  However... the problem is.. you dont lay you
hand Flat, when using buttons.

 When you type on your Keyboard.. look at your fingers.  They are vertically bent downwards at the
first knuckle.  Thats why every key is in a straight line.. so you know exactly where they are, even
if your eyes were closed.

 When you try to use a Curved button layout on a Control Panel... you end up hitting the edges
of the buttons, instead of the center of each button.  Also.. you might even accidentally Miss the
button altogether

 You would not save more than any inch of space, by curving buttons.  And, you would seriously
regret doing it.  Just use the Straight Line rows.  Trust me on this.

 Many people have made the same Mistake... but they are too proud to rebuild their control panels,
and have suffered for it, as a result.

[Xiaou2]

For my speakers, I want to keep the speakers in the cab. I know that's limiting but it's what I want to do.

 Nothing wrong with that.  You can always transplant drivers from any speakers, into any arcade cabinet.

 The sound might be altered because of the larger cabinet size... but thats how most Arcade Machines would have sounded
anyway.


 That said... you could also make an internal speaker box,  inside of your cabinet.
Or leave a smaller sized speaker in its own box... with the speakers simply mounted behind the speaker grills.

 That again, is something you can do live tests with.   Test both some music,  as well as some actual Arcade games, to
see the differences in how things sound.

[Demo85]

Dont Do it !!

I once built a control panel with a Curved button layout like that.  It was AWFUL.

It looks like it would fit your fingers Ergonomically.  However... the problem is.. you dont lay you
hand Flat, when using buttons.

 When you type on your Keyboard.. look at your fingers.  They are vertically bent downwards at the
first knuckle.  Thats why every key is in a straight line.. so you know exactly where they are, even
if your eyes were closed.

 When you try to use a Curved button layout on a Control Panel... you end up hitting the edges
of the buttons, instead of the center of each button.  Also.. you might even accidentally Miss the
button altogether

 You would not save more than any inch of space, by curving buttons.  And, you would seriously
regret doing it.  Just use the Straight Line rows.  Trust me on this.

 Many people have made the same Mistake... but they are too proud to rebuild their control panels,
and have suffered for it, as a result.

My plan now is to build a box out of scrap with easy change deck (or whatever you call the top) to try a few patterns out before I try anything with the metal on my cabinet. Not even worried about saving space since the Atari Showcase 33 has such a large playfield. Waiting for the buttons and sticks (yes I bought a few to test) to build it. Also just had a melt down over my printer not printing so now i'm waiting on a new printer as well lol.

[Xiaou2]

I have a Theory why certain Japanese cabinets used Curved buttons.

Their cabinets likely needed more control panel space for each players arms

Also.. as far as Ive seen... their buttons are either Flat Topped, or Convex (raised bump)
(I personally hate flat or raised buttons.  Convex is so much nicer feeling)

Being flat topped would make it less of a problem to press a buttons anywhere on its surface, rather than its center

Add to that, micro-switches that take less activation force.. might allow them to lay their hands flat, while playing
(I cant confirm this, because Ive only owned a Japanese stick.. not their buttons)

But even if all that is true... its still vastly inferior to simply bending your fingers vertically over the buttons...
because you get a superior mechanical advantage.  Better strength, speed, and better control.

Again, you never lay your fingers flat, when typing on your keyboard


Another thing that partially may have effected Japanese Cabinets... is that they are Sit Downs.   The problem with
a sit down fighting cabinet... is that if you are too short, your hands/wrists might be strained, trying to angle them
upwards on the Control Panel.   This is why most US Standing Arcade cabinets have a slight Angle on the Control
panel... to allow people of shorter heights (children), to be able to reach the controls with comfort.. rather than
their forearms being scraped on the sharp front edge of the cabinet.


But As said... even if you were to use all Japanese buttons / parts... Id still recommend using a Straight Line
alignment.   Its simply easier to tell where the buttons are, without accidentally hitting the wrong button...
and you get better strength, speed, and control, with slightly bent fingers.

Ohh, and As Ive said before... if you are not planning to use Japanese parts.. you can use wood for the control
panel.. rather than having to have a new metal part cut + drilled.  This also means, if you wish to change / remake
a control panel... its that much easier.  No need to ever cut metal again.