Quick question for programmers

[Frostillicus]

This has nothing to do with arcade stuff, but since there are so many smart people here thought I'd give it a shot.  I, apart from a little actionscript, know exactly zero languages.  I used to know Pascal pretty good, and Basic from when I was a kid on the ol' atari 400, but  I guess things have moved on a bit The brain is now empty, tho.

I would like to learn some type of server language for work to handle some basic stuff.  I'm not talking super-strength, giant apps here, just little things to experiment and learn with to eventually develop a few useful scripts.  I'm not asking for anything done for me, just some recommendations on what to learn, like perl or VB or something.  Is there one that is most useful?  The project is eventually connecting dynamic PDFs with an access database.  I'm pretty sure I could use some cut-n-paste scripts but I kind of want to know what's going on with them.  

Thanks for any advice!

[zaphod]

If you plan to connect PDFs with data from Access, you could use ASP (Active Server Pages) with VBscript.  That's the combination I use at work anytime I need something done quickly on our sites.  Both are very easy to pick up and understand and there are many, many sites with helpful code snippets for when you just don't want to have to think.

[Frostillicus]

Thanks zaphod!  Is it hard to implement an encrypted connection with VBscript?  It happens somehow but I always assumed it was magic.  I'm pretty sure they (the higher-ups at my company) would want some security and I may have to do that.

[zaphod]

Is it hard to implement an encrypted connection with VBscript?  

No harder than unencrypted.  You just save it to a secure server (SSL-enabled) instead of your standard page.  Your code will look exactly the same.

[JamIt]

Frost,
we also implement the ASP/PDF solution at my job.
Do a search for FDFToolkit.  We use this third-party and its rather straight-forward.
--JamIt

[bluGill]

Access is not a real database, it might work, but it was designed for one user.  There are several good databases that are free.  (for some definition of good)   MySql, and PostgreeQL come to mind, but I know there are at least 2 more full featured databases out there that you can get for free.   Not to mention the pay ones that are better.

Learn database design before you start.  Beginners often make  mistakes like not "normalizing" their database.  It is easy to do once you understand what is going on, but if it isn't pointed out you won't do it.  A little (well a lot, really) of up front work will really save you down the road.   For playing it won't matter, but if you ever want to do something more you will need it.   Fixing a badly design database is hard.    

If this is for work you should really consider hiring an expert.   There are little pitfalls that a good expert will avoid that you will hit.  (I am not such an expert)  Some of those pitfalls mean the different between one user at a time on a powerful machine, to good for thousands of users at once on some old machine.

As for languages, you could learn ASP, PHP, java, python, C#, and many more.   Each has advantages and disadvantages.    A good programer can learn any of the above in less time than it takes you to figure out that when he started he didn't know it.  (Mastery can take years of course)  Don't worry about the individual language so much as learning how to program.

If you want to learn: don't learn one thing.  learn some python, then jump to ASP (which is nothing like python and covers a completely different area), once you know that jump to SQL (which is different again).   The language is just a tool - I can drive screws with a hammer if I must (and I have done so), but you are much better off knowing how to switch to a screwdriver.  

Note the list I suggested above.  You can substitute ruby, java, REXX, perl, or VB for python and you essentially get the same results.   (I don't reccomend perl or VB but that is a different matter)

For ASP you could use PHP as well, or one of several other packages I've never looked at.   Many just cover the things they do well with Java or something from the first list, which might or might not be better for you.  

SQL is the language of Databases.   Every real database you encounter (I'm not sure about access, but I think that too even though it isn't "real") speaks SQL in some form.  

Remember design is what counts.  If you can't create a good design you will suddenly find yourself spending most of your time maintaining this mess (and not doing whatever other work you do, perhaps not even getting a promotion because if you are promoted who will maintain it).  Eventally you quit your job for something with less stress, like air traffic control.   Seriously though, bad design in a toy that suddenly gets put into production can come back to haunt you for years.   So learn the design even more than the programing.  

[SirPoonga]

The only thing about MySQL and PostgreSQL is they are only SQL databases, not relational databases.  I would like to know if there is a free relational database.

I do agree access isn't the bestsolution for a website database.  It's great for recipes and address books.

If you are running a windows server you will want to look at ASP, VBScript, and JavaScript for web programming.  If on a unix server you will want to look up PHP and Javascript.

Perl can be run on either but perl is meant for unix.  There's more you can do with perl on a unix machine.

Of course Java can be used anywhere (and had good xml parsing if that is needed).  But that is a little more involved than just ascripting langauge.

[zaphod]

I agree that Access is not an overly robust database.  However, our host only allows that as a DB option (Win server).  You can get by just fine if you have fewer than, say, 100 concurrent users, which is our situation.  In the real world, absolute "normalization" of a database is not always desirable for reasons of speed, efficiency, and maintenence.

Frosty, if your shop runs Access, ASP would still be a good choice to learn first.  If you choose to upgrade to a better DB, such as SQLServer, the changes to your code would be extremely slight.  The basics of SQL can be learned in ten minutes.  

I've found that it is often better to learn languages that are directly applicable to your job, then move on to more 'fun' languages in your free time.  I like to be paid to learn.

Good luck.

 

[Frostillicus]

Wow - thanks for your suggestions guys, greatly appreciated.  I clearly have more research to do in just understanding the fundamentals of this whole server-side stuff.  Maybe I can just pass the project to a different dept  

[bluGill]

MySQL and PostgresSQL are both full relational databases.  They lack some features that others have, but those others also lack some features so a comparition needs to be made based on your needs.  

I agree learn what your job uses/requires first.   However do not become blinded by what you have already learned.    

You can make access work if that is what the job wants, but be aware that it is limited.  Be ready and willing to learn something different when you have a choice about what to use.

[SirPoonga]

MySQL and PostgresSQL are both full relational databases.  

How do you setup relationships with these?  I've been using mysql for a year and have to to find out how to setup relationships.  If you know how please tell.


Ok, shot myself in the foot there.  I did say Realtional database, not relational database management system, like Ms Access, SQL Server, and DB2.


There is one thing you can't do with MySQL, embedded select statements.  Have to use joins, grrrr!

[patrickl]

MySQL and PostgresSQL are both full relational databases.  

How do you setup relationships with these?  I've been using mysql for a year and have to to find out how to setup relationships.  If you know how please tell.

You can do that in InnoDB (the commercial variant of MySQL). See the online MySQL docs about foreign key constraints.

I think MsAccess works just fine for a webserver. It depends a bit on how you use it though. It doesn't work very well if you have a lot of concurrent updates, but most websites are mostly database reads and MsAccess works fine then. Personally I have a bigger problem with ASP/VBScript then with Access. ASP is just too slow/cumbersome. I have never seen an ASP website run nicely.

We use PHP and MySQL on most websites we build and Access or MS SQL Server for ASP sites (but lukcily not many clients ask us to use ASP.

[SirPoonga]

You can do that in InnoDB (the commercial variant of MySQL). See the online MySQL docs about foreign key constraints.

Key Words: commercial variant!  How about free?

[Valence]

Firebird

It just came out but
I'm sure you have heard of it by now

[SirPoonga]

Yeah, I heard of it, but I can't find anything useful on their website.  Their tutorial isn;t really a tutorial, their docs are more promotional than informational.  I wish I knew what it was BEFORE I download it.

[patrickl]

I guess I forgot the word "only" in my reply. I meant to say MySQL cannot really do that natively and I personally don't want to buy something that goes "under" MySQL.

Actually, the help document I linked to states that MySQL will support constraints natively one day too. So I'm just waiting till it does. I have not seen reported anywhere that they are actually working on it though. As far as I know it's not mentioned in the coming 4.1 and 5.0 versions.

BTW, version 4.1 will support nested select statements!