Aliens, Terminator, Robocop, Predator franchises... why no new good films?

[shponglefan]

The original Alien and Terminator films were great and followed by arguably superior sequels. The original Predator and Robocop movies were also great, albeit followed up by not-so-great sequels.

However, since then there really hasn't been anything done that well with any of these franchises.

The Terminator and Alien franchises have become a large mess ranging from mediocre entries to outright garbage. 2010's Predators was okay, but nothing special. 2018's The Predator was far worse. And following Robocop 2, that franchise went PG-13 for some reason with both Robocop 3 and the 2014 reboot following suite.

It's not like great action/sci-fi isn't possible or that older franchises can't be given a new of life. Batman Begins proved it's possible to resurrect a franchise fallen into mediocrity. 2012's Dredd proved that a modern gritty sci-fi/action flick can be done with the similar feel as the 80's greats. Heck, even Rambo of all things got a shot of new life with the 2008 film.

Is it too much to ask for just one decent modern film from any of these franchises?

[Vigo]

I think the simple answer is that there is no incentive for major studios to invest in a good movie that doesn't have a universal enough appeal.

Looking at it from a Disney exec's point of view. (Who now owns Alien and Predator) If you are going to throw a wad a cash at only 8 movies a year, you want to maximize the ticket sales. Adults will get nostalgic over a Predator movie, but they will also get nostalgic for Star Wars or Spider man, and so are their kids. The movie that parents need to get baby sitters for is going to lose out in ticket sales just about any day of the week.

The catch is, these movies don't even need to be well written to be successful. They just need enough hands on deck to keep them from failing.

For the forseeable future, the bulk of our movies are are cycle of comic book, CGI and adventure films that straddle the PG/PG-13 rating scale. The long treasured, less family friendly franchises are being reduced to cash-ins.

The ones that usually break the mold are made from outside Hollywood. Dredd was British, I think. Rambo, along with the other Stallone stuff like Creed and expendables, I believe that if it were not for Stallone being in the drivers seat pushing those movies, they would be dead in the water or terrible reboots at this point. I think Stallone produced a lot of that with overseas production companies as well.

[fallacy]

Some franchises are too tied to the characters that played them making a sequel or reboot almost impossible. Terminator is a great example, without Arnold whatever they do is just bull.. It is also the reason they will never try to do a reboot on Back to the Future. Goonies has the problem where the kids were too good; you think it would be that hard to get a different group of kids on an adventure for treasure, call it The Goonies and collect that pay check. They know it will not even be close to as good as the one they are trying to replace and they would get raked over the coals for it. That's basically what they tried to do with Ghost Busters and look how that turned out. Everyone was like ya we liked the characters not just the fact they were shooting ghost with laser guns in New York

I am more about taking these movie concepts and instead of just making another same length movie of what's already perfect turn it into a 12 episode series and add a lot more to it with that extra time. It will also give us the necessary amount of time letting the new actors ease into the role. Dusk Till Dawn is a good example, the first season copies beat for beat the movie but they added enough other little things that it was still just as interesting.

[Vigo]

I think another question to ask is why haven't there been that many great, original franchise worthy films in the last decade? John Wick comes to mind, but the list doesn't go much further. Even a mediocre, yet original franchise like the Mummy would be refreshing at this point.

[Howard_Casto]

Well that one is easy to answer.  Say you are a studio head and this amazing script comes across your desk.  It could make you millions... key word there is "could".  Meanwhile some schlocks want to resurrect one of your mega blockbusters from days past.  You know from market research that just having the name of the franchise slapped across a poster is going to make you millions.  As the studio head of what is now a large corporate conglomerate, your job is to make money, not great films.  Which one would you green light?

[shponglefan]

I think another question to ask is why haven't there been that many great, original franchise worthy films in the last decade? John Wick comes to mind, but the list doesn't go much further. Even a mediocre, yet original franchise like the Mummy would be refreshing at this point.

I'd throw the MCU in there as an example of modern franchise building. In fact, the MCU stands out to me as highly remarkable given the average quality level of those films.

Even movies like Ant-Man or Thor are far better than they have any right to be.

[shponglefan]

The ones that usually break the mold are made from outside Hollywood. Dredd was British, I think. Rambo, along with the other Stallone stuff like Creed and expendables, I believe that if it were not for Stallone being in the drivers seat pushing those movies, they would be dead in the water or terrible reboots at this point. I think Stallone produced a lot of that with overseas production companies as well.

Certainly there are circumstances leading to why Dredd and Rambo seemed to be better follow-ups than many others.

Though by the same token, Ridley Scott came back for Prometheus and Alien: Covenant, but those films were let down by awful scripts. Likewise, James Cameron, Arnie and Linda Hamilton all came back for Terminator: Dark Fate, but they still couldn't recapture the magic of the original Terminator and T2.

[nitrogen_widget]

Jurassic Park did it.
sort of.
Same world, just decades later with new characters.
Same thing with Blade runner.

I think replacing the actor in the batman movies worked for me because I had no attachment to the actor's.
Bruce Wayne and batman are Bruce Wayne and batman.
there really isn't a whole lot of depth to either character and as an actor you are pidgin-holed into playing the part a certain way.

Last terminator I saw had old arnie's head on some muscled body and young arnies head on the same muscled body and it was just weird as heck.
At some point I think you have to let some franchises Rest in Peace.

[shponglefan]

Well that one is easy to answer.  Say you are a studio head and this amazing script comes across your desk.  It could make you millions... key word there is "could".  Meanwhile some schlocks want to resurrect one of your mega blockbusters from days past.  You know from market research that just having the name of the franchise slapped across a poster is going to make you millions.  As the studio head of what is now a large corporate conglomerate, your job is to make money, not great films.  Which one would you green light?

Statistically speaking, I'd think they could at least make one decent new film just by pure fluke. 

[shponglefan]

I am more about taking these movie concepts and instead of just making another same length movie of what's already perfect turn it into a 12 episode series and add a lot more to it with that extra time. It will also give us the necessary amount of time letting the new actors ease into the role. Dusk Till Dawn is a good example, the first season copies beat for beat the movie but they added enough other little things that it was still just as interesting.

Terminator had the Sarah Connor Chronicles series. It was actually decent, but unfortunately got canned and ended on a cliffhanger.

It would be nice to see a modern series based on some of these franchises, made for streaming (so no PG/PG-13 level crap).

[Howard_Casto]

SCC was better than it had any right to be.  Unfortunately the idgits that created it were stupid enough to sell it to fox.  I don't think fox has ever let a sci-fi show end properly, unless you count that rushed final bit of dollhouse. 

Producers need to look at projects like the Mandalorian.  It's barely set in the Star Wars universe, so if it was bad no big deal, but since it's good they can draw in viewers on both word of mouth and brand recognition and compared to the SW films, it's a much cheaper project to fund.  While you would be hard pressed to do a spin-off series in the Robocop or Terminator universe, there is a lot of leeway with franchises like Alien and Predator. 

[pbj]

I liked the Riddick movies but apparently stand nearly alone on that.

We enjoyed Terminator Dark Fate.  First 5 minutes is worth a watch if nothing else.

[Vigo]

I think another question to ask is why haven't there been that many great, original franchise worthy films in the last decade? John Wick comes to mind, but the list doesn't go much further. Even a mediocre, yet original franchise like the Mummy would be refreshing at this point.

I'd throw the MCU in there as an example of modern franchise building. In fact, the MCU stands out to me as highly remarkable given the average quality level of those films.

Even movies like Ant-Man or Thor are far better than they have any right to be.

By original, I do mean original. Not a movie adaptation of something that already exists. Picking a marvel hero and rewriting a story arc is precisely why the MCU films are usually great. They are digging into pulp comic lore from decades ago from artists and writers who generally answered mail from fans every issue, so they knew their audience well.

Really, the Comic film studios  are lucky that their creators generally care more about their stories being told than nitpicking over being true to the source material.  just about every film has taken massive creative licenses. It’s really works out. Don’t know why DC tends to biff it constantly.

The franchises already mentioned - Terminator, Predator, Rocky, Alien, Robocop, Back to the Future, Indiana Jones, Rambo, Ghostbusters, Rocky, Goonies, as far as I know are all original to their films. Those kind of original ideas are sorely missed from movies, especially blockbuster films. CGI films are the only ones out there with some expectations around originality, even if they tend to all follow the same recipe.

[Vigo]

Producers need to look at projects like the Mandalorian.  It's barely set in the Star Wars universe, so if it was bad no big deal, but since it's good they can draw in viewers on both word of mouth and brand recognition and compared to the SW films, it's a much cheaper project to fund.  While you would be hard pressed to do a spin-off series in the Robocop or Terminator universe, there is a lot of leeway with franchises like Alien and Predator.

Agree. And although Prometheus had issues, it was a bit of a defining film in that’s showed  the Alien franchise could really be explored in a very different direction.

[pbj]

Rocky was based on Chuck Wepner.

Rambo was a book.

[Drnick]

Rocky was based on Chuck Wepner.

Rambo was a book.

Not only was (Rambo aka First Blood) a book but Rambo dies at the end, shot in the head by trautman. That should have been the ending of the movie too, could have saved me from the whole, I want what they want speech later on

[Mike A]

Producers need to look at projects like the Mandalorian.  It's barely set in the Star Wars universe, so if it was bad no big deal, but since it's good they can draw in viewers on both word of mouth and brand recognition and compared to the SW films, it's a much cheaper project to fund.

It was nice while it lasted. They learned nothing from their success. Season 2 is adding a bunch of Star Wars characters. They are going to ruin the show.

Baby Yoda is the worst part of that show. Fight me.

[Vigo]

Baby Yoda is the worst part of that show. Fight me.

What is, "Things I don't dare say in front of my kids?"

Best character, IMO was Nick Nolte's Ugnaught. They took a throwaway star wars alien race, and made something real out of it. All real animatronics as well. Hope season 2 is not ruined, but not holding my breath.

[Vigo]

Rocky was based on Chuck Wepner.

Rambo was a book.

Thanks, Jim. Good callouts. I do still give originality credit for Rocky, as I *think* the movie was mostly based off of his fight, and not his life, but I honestly don't know. Didn't know Rambo was a book, but thinking about it, it does play out like a movie based on a book.

Rocky was based on Chuck Wepner.

Rambo was a book.

Not only was (Rambo aka First Blood) a book but Rambo dies at the end, shot in the head by trautman. That should have been the ending of the movie too, could have saved me from the whole, I want what they want speech later on

  And "explosive arrows".

[Mike A]

My favorite episode was the one with the scout walker. It felt like an episode of the A Team.

I though that could have been a good direction to take the show. Show up at a new planet every week. Help someone in need. Move on.

Everything has to have a story arc now. The problem is that individual stories are sacrificed to move the plot along.

[fallacy]

Baby Yoda … you mean Gizmo knock off, why does no one talk about that? Porgs ... Star Wars must have an entire wall of of big eyed cute things; they pick one for their next project so they can sell the plush dolls.

[yotsuya]

Baby Yoda is the worst part of that show. Fight me.

Imma go all Lew upside yo face next time I see you.

[Howard_Casto]

For the record, baby Yoda makes life worth living.  2019 was a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- show, but baby Yoda.... yeah almost worth it.

[shponglefan]

Baby Yoda is the worst part of that show. Fight me.

Even if you don't like baby Yoda, you have to admit it was brilliant marketing on their part in including him in the show.

It was also a neat example of practical effects given the amount of puppetry in the series.  IIRC, the physical puppet cost something like $5M to create.

[shponglefan]

Producers need to look at projects like the Mandalorian.  It's barely set in the Star Wars universe, so if it was bad no big deal, but since it's good they can draw in viewers on both word of mouth and brand recognition and compared to the SW films, it's a much cheaper project to fund.  While you would be hard pressed to do a spin-off series in the Robocop or Terminator universe, there is a lot of leeway with franchises like Alien and Predator.

Hell yes, I'd take any of those franchises if they could do something in the same vein as the Mandalorian.

IMHO, this is exactly what they should try with these franchises; stop trying to make blockbuster tentpole films and make something where they can take a little more risk, but also explore something more interesting in those universes.

[shponglefan]

Really, the Comic film studios  are lucky that their creators generally care more about their stories being told than nitpicking over being true to the source material.  just about every film has taken massive creative licenses. It’s really works out. Don’t know why DC tends to biff it constantly.

It only seems to be Marvel specifically that seems to know how to consistently create decent comic book films. Even Marvel's other IP licensed out to other studios are invariably hit or miss.  Deadpool was great, the first couple Spider-Mans were decent, and a couple of the X-Men films weren't bad.

Yet when Marvel can make a completely watchable and relatively entertaining movie about Ant-Man of all characters, yet other studios can't consistently handle far bigger IP like X-Men, it's mind-boggling. I don't know how Marvel does it.

The franchises already mentioned - Terminator, Predator, Rocky, Alien, Robocop, Back to the Future, Indiana Jones, Rambo, Ghostbusters, Rocky, Goonies, as far as I know are all original to their films. Those kind of original ideas are sorely missed from movies, especially blockbuster films. CGI films are the only ones out there with some expectations around originality, even if they tend to all follow the same recipe.

I think the late 70's and 80's was a bit special in this regard, since it was around that time that blockbuster films first started to become a thing. So there was a lot of unexplored territory.

These days so much has already been done.

[Mike A]

Even if you don't like baby Yoda, you have to admit it was brilliant marketing on their part in including him in the show.

Duh.

[Howard_Casto]

The problem with the Marvel films though is they really aren't that good.  They are ok at best.  Most of them are very safe films... there's a tragedy, it births a hero, said hero fights the evil version of themselves.  Up until recently nearly all the films were like that.  I'd say the only thing they have going for them are a fairly consistent universe that leans towards the source material and huge Disney-level budgets that allow them to look the part.  Really anything the big mouse releases anymore is really safe.  Again, they aren't bad though... they just aren't terribly good. 

It's been quite a while since I've seen a blockbuster that I would actually want to watch again. It might just be because we have so much content 24/7 now... maybe it's spoiled us. 

[pbj]

I feel like I outgrew comic books when I was 12.  In the 90s, people wearing stuff like X-men and Spider-Man shirts were mocked.  Now that stuff is so mainstream it’s unbelievable.  Yet every comic book store I walk into is a dump, nobody is buying anything, and I get the stink eye until I leave.  I truly don’t get it.  Every movie revolves around the invincible good guy punching the bad guy until the movie is over.  The DC movies at least flirted with the idea of collateral damage. Yet these things make tons of money.

This has been making the rounds in Houston lately.  I’ve kinda come to the realization that the only reason I liked Star Wars so much was because there was little else like it in the mainstream.  Worth watching for the guy that dismisses Star Wars as derivative crap at the 2 minute mark yet offers no explanation why he’s standing in line for hours in a Houston parking lot to watch it. 



Reminded me an awful lot of that classic Simpsons episode (another lifeline for misfits) where Comic Book Guy withdraws his question.

I gave up on Marvel movies after Guardians 2.  I gave up on LOTR/Peter Jackson after the first hobbit movie.  I gave up on Star Wars after Rogue One.

 

[fallacy]

It's been quite a while since I've seen a blockbuster that I would actually want to watch again. It might just be because we have so much content 24/7 now... maybe it's spoiled us.

I have not liked movies in general in the last 8 or so years, I have not been to the theater in that long either. I almost went for End Game but never followed through. I just don’t like the format of movies even more, “movies made for theaters” . Trying to cram charters, plot, build up resolution in the 2 hour limit will fail at least 9 out of 10 times; most theater movies need big action set pieces regardless if it makes any sense or not, it's the only way they can justify why you went to a theater to see it. Just being ok is not good enough either, the movie has to be great, hit every check box in those 2 hours otherwise it is not worth the time. I have seen too much already in this life. Unfortunately for every movie like Fight Club, Back to the Future or even The Shawshank Redemption comes with heaping piles and piles of mediocre repetitive and just pointless crap.

If you watch a movie and you feel like you would never want to watch it again you just wasted your time.

[Vigo]

Yet when Marvel can make a completely watchable and relatively entertaining movie about Ant-Man of all characters, yet other studios can't consistently handle far bigger IP like X-Men, it's mind-boggling. I don't know how Marvel does it.

I hear ya there. I think one thing Disney does right is they care about the characters first and foremost. Which is why I think X-men started off so well. Patrick Stewart, Ian Mckellen and Hugh Jackman were brilliant casting choices and their characters were developed well. Those are the 3 biggest roles to get right, as well.

Almost every mutant/character who wasn't in the first X-men film, isn't even worth a mentioning for their role. Fight me.