Makvision SVGA monitor 27/29” running at 120Hz with black frame insertion

[alex_bb23]

Hi Calamity,

Yesterday I discover that my Makvision SVGA monitor is capable to run at 120Hz and I can say that the image is a crystal clear and looks gorgeous!!

Unfortunately, I get a blurry picture when running scrolling games at 120 Hz like you mentioned in this topic

My question is: there exist a solution which can remove this kind of issue for a CRT?

I tried to find a similar issue in the forum but nothing was clear for me. Maybe you can help me with that…

I’m asking you that to know if whether it makes sense to do more or not…

Thank you!
Alex

[Calamity]

My question is: there exist a solution which can remove this kind of issue for a CRT?

Sure, you can use black frame insertion with GroovyMAME to get rid of motion blur at 120 Hz, but you're mentioning it on your topic name already so I'm confused...

[alex_bb23]

Sure, you can use black frame insertion with GroovyMAME to get rid of motion blur at 120 Hz, but you're mentioning it on your topic name already so I'm confused...

Hi Calamity,

First, I wanna thank you for your fast answer!
I already use black frame like I mentioned in the previous post (sorry is in title), but still there I have a blurry picture when running scrolling games at 120Hz - for example when you see the tower with the fighters from MK1 or MK2.

I apologize, but I'm still at work and I don't know exactly how looks like my VMMaker configuration
I'm sure that I have something like:

Code: [Select]

monitor_specs_0 = "31400-31600, 100-130 and so on..."

And my mame.ini use:

Code: [Select]

monitor pc_31_120

If you wish, I can post later my VMMaker configuration.

Thank you!
Alex

[Calamity]

You wouldn't have a blurry picture with black frame insertion enabled. Make sure to post a log from GroovyMAME.

[alex_bb23]

Hi Calamity,

Attached you can find logs from MK1, MK2, mame and VMMaker settings.

Thank you for your help!
Alex

[Calamity]

You have two issues going on:

- You need to run GroovyMAME with admin rights, and
- The hfreq in your monitor range needs to be extended a little bit above 31.6 KHz for 256/512 line games.

It would work however if you force -syncrefresh in mk1.ini. But it'll run a bit slow. It's better to create a custom preset, check the monitor preset thread and grab the lines for the one you're using, then edit the HfreqMax field.

[alex_bb23]

Hi Calamity,

I did some changes but no success.

Here is my specs from VMMaker:

Code: [Select]

monitor_specs_0 = "30000-40000, 100-130, 0.600, 2.500, 3.800, 0.032, 0.096, 0.448, 0, 0, 640, 768"

Attached you can find a new log from mk1 with settings from above.

P.S Street Fighter 2 running well

Thank you!
Alex

[Calamity]

Leave VMMaker alone. The change needs to be done in mame.ini. Your log shows it's not been done.

[alex_bb23]

Leave VMMaker alone. The change needs to be done in mame.ini. Your log shows it's not been done.

Ok, I will.

Here is my custom preset in mame.ini

Code: [Select]

monitor custom
crt_range0 31400-31700, 100-130, 0.671, 2.683, 3.353, 0.034, 0.101, 0.436, 0, 0, 200, 256, 0, 0

Can you please tell me exactly what should I do in mame.ini?

Thank you!
Alex

[alex_bb23]

Hi Calamity,

I think that I did what you said:

- I run GroovyMAME with admin rights
- I increased HfreqMax field

Code: [Select]

crt_range0  31400-40000, 100-130, 0.671, 2.683, 3.353, 0.034, 0.101, 0.436, 0, 0, 200, 256, 0, 0

Unfortunately, I got the same result. I'll try to explain you which is the behaviour with the black frame insertion…

When the image on the monitor is stable, you can see the scanlines very clear... but when is running a (for example MK1) vertically scrolling images on the monitor the scanlines starts to flicker and become unclear somehow - I'm sure that you're right regarding to HfreqMax but I'm a beginner with GroovyMame and I don't know how, where and what should I do

Can you please guide me to what I'm doing wrong?

P.S I believe that is a misunderstanding from my side...
To activate black_frame_insertion should be set with 1 instead of 0 in mame.ini. Then is working, but the image become much darker.
I'm right?

Thank you!
Alex

[Calamity]

Ok IIRC you have to force -syncrefresh 1 in mame.ini. I see triplebuffer is being enabled by GM and that's the cause of the problem. I believe this is done because vfreq scaling (60->120) is not necessarily used in combination with black frame insertion, and triplebuffer was needed otherwise.

If that doesn't work, add syncrefresh 1 to mk1.ini, or simply to horizont.ini.

[alex_bb23]

Hi Calamity,

I believe that I've tried with -syncrefresh 1 in mame.ini but the games runs to fast with no blurry!
Therefore when I get home after work, I'll let you know which is the result...

Thank you!
Alex

[Calamity]

I believe that I've tried with -syncrefresh 1 in mame.ini but the games runs to fast with no blurry!

Obviously it's:

-syncrefresh 1

AND

-black_frame_insertion 1

 

[alex_bb23]

Hi Calamity,

Definitely I've not tested with both options enabled but I will...
There is any solution to avoid halves image brightness when you're using black frame insertion?

Thank you!

[alex_bb23]

Hi Calamity,

I've tested with -syncrefresh 1 and black frame insertion 1 and it seems that everything works properly.

I believe that is not a big deal to use 120Hz with black frame insertion - I see no differences between fake scanlines and real scanlines or maybe I'm wrong...

Obviously that it make sense if you use without black frame insertion - then you'll get a crystal clear picture but with blurry when running scrolling games.
Unfortunately, black frame insertion halves image brightness when you're using it.

That being said, I just wanna thank you very much for your help and for your kindness!
Alex

[Calamity]

Unfortunately, black frame insertion halves image brightness when you're using it.

This depends on the monitor, I believe it has to do with phosphor persistance used in the tube. You could increase the brightness from your flyback but I wouldn't do that.

In fact I believe using black frame insertion is overkill. The *exact* same result is achieved through software scanlines.

[alex_bb23]

Hi Calamity,

I have a question regarding to this "black frame insertion"

There is any solution to get perfect smooth scrolling image without activate black frame insertion?

Thank you!

[Calamity]

There is any solution to get perfect smooth scrolling image without activate black frame insertion?

Running the games at 60 Hz.

[alex_bb23]

Hi Calamity,

Can you run the games at 60 Hz in small resolutions and you'll get real scanlines or you have to activate fake scanlines in mame.ini?

For example MK1 runs at 2560x256 109Hz - let's say that we run the game at 2560x256 60 Hz... can be possible to obtain real scanlines in this way?

I try to find the best solution to runs the games in small resolution with real scanlines and I don't know if is possible with this kind of monitor.
That's why I'm ask you for your help to obtain the best results... You have more experience and you're the person who made this can be possible with GroovyMame

Thank you!

[Calamity]

let's say that we run the game at 2560x256 60 Hz... can be possible to obtain real scanlines in this way?

No.

You have 3 options:

- 60 Hz + software scanlines -> perfect scrolling, normal brightness
- 120 Hz -> blurry scrolling, normal brightness
- 120 Hz + black_frame_insertion -> perfect scrolling, reduced brightness

[alex_bb23]

Now is clear for me!

In this way, I'll take the second option (120 Hz -> blurry scrolling, normal brightness) - honestly, It's not too bad.

Thank you!

[alex_bb23]

I forgot to mention that if I use software scanlines in 60 Hz I still get halves image brightness...

And you mention that:
- 60 Hz + software scanlines -> perfect scrolling, normal brightness

So, I'm confused.

Thank you!

[Calamity]

I forgot to mention that if I use software scanlines in 60 Hz I still get halves image brightness...

That shouldn't be the case. Create your own 1x2 pixel png, one pixel white (255, 255, 255) and one pixel black (0, 0, 0).

[alex_bb23]

Hi Calamity,

I will do what you advised me to do... Now I use the default scanlines image which comes with MAME.

Thank you!

[alex_bb23]

Hi Calamity,

I've done 1x2 pixel png as you advised. Unfortunately, you'll get the same result…meaning darker image.

I’ve tried with SLG3000 which generates hardware scanlines, but also you’ll get a darker image.

I don't know why it has this kind of behavior… I am sure that you know from technical point of view what’s going on when you use scanlines png

In the end, as I said, I'm gonna use super resolution in combination with 120 Hz, even if I get blurry image on scrolling games - to be honest, is not so bad.

Do you think that, in the near future can be found a solution to remove blurry image
even if you'll not use black frame insertion in combination with 120Hz?

Thank you!

[Calamity]

Do you think that, in the near future can be found a solution to remove blurry image
even if you'll not use black frame insertion in combination with 120Hz?

That's physically impossible. The artifact is produced inside your eye organ. It's called eye-tracking motion blur. Fascinating topic.

[alex_bb23]

Fascinating topic.

Indeed! but this can be useful for other users from this forum.

Well Calamity, now is clear for me and I wanna thank you for your time.

Talk to you soon...