What is your view on redemption games and how they affected the arcade industry?

[voltz]

I know these ticket and prize games have been with us for quite a few decades and it seems at this point they've pretty much taken over what we used to consider a legit hobby.  Right now I just don't know how to feel about them as it seems they appeal to kids and operators, but certainly not with the rest of us.

Your thoughts?

[Howard_Casto]

Well first off arcades existed waaaaaaaaay before video games.  Like early 1900's before.  Back then, much like today, the majority of attractions were redemption based, largely a novelty and offered something you couldn't get in the home.  A scale was a popular attraction until the portable scales for home use were invented, then scales were no longer a novelty or something only available in the arcade so they were phased out due to lack of interest. 

What we are seeing now with the "death" of the video game based arcade is pretty much the same.  In the 70's, 80's and early to mid 90's home consoles were playing catch up to video games in terms of being able to offer games at a certain quality.  In the late 90's, however, there was a sharp decline in arcade popularity because home consoles could finally offer an identical if not superior experience to arcade games. 

Fast forward to today and what you have left are racers, lightgun games, and novelty redemption machines.  This isn't a big deal.... arcades are just returning to their roots.  They are no less "legit" now that they were in the 80's.  In the 80's gimmicks (video games) were used to con the public out of as much spare change as possible and now different gimmicks are used.  Understand that while we have a fondness to arcade games they were purposefully designed to where a person needed considerable skill to beat a machine on less than 10-20 dollars.  So yeah, they are a rip-off as well. 

Mame and similar emulators take the cost out of the equation and thus we remember them more fondly now instead of the frustrating money sinks they actually were. 

[jennifer]

    Your targeting a different audience, kids at a pizza party, how can that be wrong if they are having fun?  As for the OPs what can they do, cigarette venders are all but criminalized, Trolls got a lockdown on juke profits, and the games got "sucky graphics" as compared to a modern day game console, not really much left other than recovering some pool tables once a year.... As for Mame saving the day, Ya, not so much Howard. Its nothing more than a 30 year project that borderlines in failure.

[ark_ader]

What arcade industry?

Seriously.

[voltz]

First reply was very good.

I do remember a bit of history when arcades were like a carnival setting going by what you said and they were all mechanical (shoot the bear comes to mind), but now that actual gaming as we know it is being taken more or less out of the equation, I've had to take a view of disdain over the factors and business minds are setting the course rather then making full blown attempts to revive it, or actually compete with the home gaming front.

One of the latest things I've come upon were some examples of classic games being converted to the redemption front.  Frogger, Pac-Man and recently Galaga have been revived as quick challenges for tickets, but with the last one it is given an option to play Galaga in it's classic setting long as the operator has it enabled.  While I don't know if this will stand for future games, I would just hate to look 5 years from now and realize everything has been turned for the kids, thus marking an end to our era and while this is going on, Japan may still have something new for "their audience". *rolls eyes.

While this isn't popular opinion, I'm glad I don't have to go out hunting for specific titles anymore.  This still bares the problem that developers may not make games with an arcade style as the industry has hit such a state that we're literally stuck with AAA titles that sink or swim a brand. 

Going back on the redemption part, it shames me that they take up more floor space that otherwise could be reserved for real games.  I could only dream of going someplace that's packed with newer titles and the ones we'd care about.

[CheffoJeffo]

I know these ticket and prize games have been with us for quite a few decades and it seems at this point they've pretty much taken over what we used to consider a legit hobby.  Right now I just don't know how to feel about them as it seems they appeal to kids and operators, but certainly not with the rest of us.

Your thoughts?

You seem to vastly overestimate the "rest of us". "We" don't spend enough money to make it worthwhile. "We" are not being wronged.

I remember arcades before video games (yes, I am older than Star Wars) and am not at all upset at the current state of things in the arcade.

[tomstewdevine]

What about arcade bars? There is at least one in every city now, they don't have redemption games.  Normally just a bunch on pinball machines and arcade cabinets.  Nothing to the scale or the amount of arcades that were around in the 80s and early 90s, but still, it seems if you want to go to an arcade the bar is the place to find them now.

[vwalbridge]

If it spits out tickets, it's not an arcade.

[harveybirdman]

MEH it irritates me, but it just serves as more fuel to restore machines and put them in my house.

[wp34]

My kids loved the redemption games when they were little.   We had a lot of fun playing the games and picking out prizes.  It is not an experience I would like to recreate in my basement however.  With the possible exception of picking up a crane machine at some point (way down the road) when we have grand kids.

What about arcade bars? There is at least one in every city now, they don't have redemption games.  Normally just a bunch on pinball machines and arcade cabinets.  Nothing to the scale or the amount of arcades that were around in the 80s and early 90s, but still, it seems if you want to go to an arcade the bar is the place to find them now.

I love the arcade bars and I'm glad we now have 2 or 3 locally.  The only downside really is that they have driven up the prices of games.  You could get a nice Donkey Kong for $3-400 a few years ago.  At the auction on Saturday one went north of $800.

[CheffoJeffo]

If it spits out tickets, it's not an arcade.

[vwalbridge]

If it spits out tickets, it's not an arcade.

oops, sorry. I'll fix it:

If it spits out tickets, it's not an arcade fun.

(Skee ball being the only exception)

[CheffoJeffo]

It's a rare event when I am overly subtle. An arcade is where you find arcade machines.

Feel free to say redemption machines are not arcade machines. it is a valid opinion.

To say that redemption machines are not arcades is true. Also, oranges are not fruit trees.

[yotsuya]

This is pretty much the Star Wars Episode I argument applied to arcade games. Jar Jar Binks and Fruit Ninja Arcade weren't created for you.   Time goes on, deal with it. Rock and roll.

[jennifer]

    Well it could also be said that Cherry masters are targeted at adults with its slot style nature, spin...pay...spin... In most states the payouts are (were) redemption machines ( for store credits), However, less than fun IMO, and are still dying a slow death.

[vwalbridge]

The only difference between a redemption machine and a slot machine is the age of the operator and cigarette smoke.

[jennifer]

      A "legal" slot in most states, skirting the fact due to the redemption angle, Years ago (before Jenns day ) apparently they had cigar slot/venders that pay out on the same redemption principle.... As for the smoking, Well, we still got some rights, although due to the loss of revenue from taxes ,infringing on rights, and all but forcing people to quit. They had to legalize the dope to keep the money river flowing. 

[JimmyU]

The only difference between a redemption machine and a slot machine is the age of the operator and cigarette smoke.

That's definitely true. Take a look at a modern slot and a redemption machine and they look almost identical. Go to a Chuck E Cheese and it looks like Vegas for eight year olds.

[pbj]

The only difference between a redemption machine and a slot machine is the age of the operator and cigarette smoke.

That's definitely true. Take a look at a modern slot and a redemption machine and they look almost identical. Go to a Chuck E Cheese and it looks like Vegas for eight year olds.

Gosh, it's almost as if the same companies are producing both....

[voltz]

If they both have the WMS logo....

[Howard_Casto]

It's a rare event when I am overly subtle. An arcade is where you find arcade machines.

Feel free to say redemption machines are not arcade machines. it is a valid opinion.

To say that redemption machines are not arcades is true. Also, oranges are not fruit trees.

Did we just become best friends?

Every time someone calls an arcade machine an "arcade" William Sessions beats a kitten to death. 

[vwalbridge]

It's a rare event when I am overly subtle. An arcade is where you find arcade machines.

Feel free to say redemption machines are not arcade machines. it is a valid opinion.

To say that redemption machines are not arcades is true. Also, oranges are not fruit trees.

Did we just become best friends?

Every time someone calls an arcade machine an "arcade" William Sessions beats a kitten to death.

I would like a consolation prize to be redeemed for at least not saying "arcade console". 

[Howard_Casto]

No, but bonus points for not saying "tate" anywhere in your reply.

[Xiaou2]

 There are a few Redemption games that are / were fun. .. such as SkeeBall, Whach-A-Mole, Spider Stompin,  and some ball toss games.

 Most all others are skill-less Stop the Spinning light kind of games...  and they are Rigged.   Even if the kid gets it dead on... if the payout percentage is not jiving... it will bump that light one more notch over so that the kid will lose.

 Crane games are similar.    There are adjustments for the pickup strength... as well as some other tricks.   Packing toys in tightly.. so that it takes like $50 to get a single .99  stuffed animal.

 Then there are the "Coin Pushers".   They are very deceptive...  and there really is not much skill in them either.   They can hold a mega ton of stacked coins before coming close to paying out.

 And finally, as far as memory serves..  there are the coil roll, or coin flip  games.   Same principles... very limited skill set.


 The problem is that as time went on.. these games became less and less about being games of SKILL..  and more and more about being like slot machines (with tickets as the incentive payout).     People of all ages like physical games of skill.   But rigged gambling games?   Most people will skip over them.   Even the kids pass them by, especially when the experience is boring, anti-clamatic, and left walking away feeling cheated.

 The over-inflated ticker counter prices were insane.   Nobody in their right minds would collect enough tickets to get those cheap trinkets.   The ticket counter is a NIGHTMARE for an OP / Arcade manager / Arcade Employee.

 The kids wont have enough for what they want.. so will scream and cry.  Parents will do battle with them.   Then after the ear splitting screams subside... they will take about 20 min to pick out two trinkets.    You cant walk away from the counter until they are sure...  so you are stuck in uncomfortable limbo land.    Meanwhile... people are carrying drinks into the place,  kicking games,  kids trying to hang from joysticks and or rip off steering wheels...  and at least 2 scammers are demanding that they lost their money in a machine... and want something done about it immediately.   Ohh,  almost forgot about the kids, teen, adults.. trying to shake the coin and candy pushers. >_<
*Alarm*  blasts off...    And meanwhile, you are hoping that nobody has tried to steal your tools from the game you have cracked into pieces...

 Then you go home... to be called back in because one of your employees ticked off a customer... and said customer kicked the glass redemption showcase unit.    Or all the bill changers seem to have teamed up in the perfect storm of full and complete failure...  Wheeeee

 (sorry... 3 yrs of a Namco's  Time Out Arcade gets to you!     )

 
 It didnt get much better with modern arcade games.   Fighters took over all the Original and unique game play styles.   Driving games got less and less skill based.. and more and more like a kiddie ride without the fun motion.  (IE:  The cars wont wreck when you hit something at speed... nor will some games even allow you to drive past the curb... using a magical force field to keep you in check.   Crash at 200 mph?  No problem.. you just bounce off the wall / inviso-fence,   and keep on tooting..  )

 The games got so skill deprived (besides the fighter  -vs-  fighter),   that it became pointless to bother playing.   In many ways, it was worse that a ticket spitter.. because even though you just got cheating of any sense of a good time.....  you cant even get a tiny piece of candy afterwards.  heh

 The gun games were plentiful  ... but too plentiful.   And not all gun games were all that great either.

 There was a period where a lot of Giant sized projection screen games were put into play.   Like Alpine Racer.    Again.. most all of these were so simple and boring... that nobody played them more than once.   They were mega expensive.. and got like 2$ a week in revenue.   (Taking up like 4 to 6 games worth of space)    Rare exceptions were games like Top Skater.

 Anyway.. as Ive said time and time again...  If you take the Skill out of gaming..  you lose most of the players...  and you lose repeat business.

 The only places where Arcades still scrape by... is in super population-dense high-rise areas, such as in Japan.   Of course, your going to pay through the nose for the land/space to have a business there.


 The Arcades Could make a comeback if creativity were allowed to flourish,  and gameplay was again put on Top billing,  rather than mere graphical looks (and no substance).    Arcades should also have more unique games of skill...   Like those great "Big Ball Bowlers",  "Shuffle Puck" games,  and more of the same nature.

 If it were up to me... all ticket games that have "Payout"  rip-off systems,   would be set ablaze, and laws established to prevent their return.

[voltz]

If it were up to me... all ticket games that have "Payout"  rip-off systems,   would be set ablaze, and laws established to prevent their return.

You have absolutely no idea how much I support this. 

Anyways I've always believed that redemption gaming was being used as an excuse replacement for what real arcade gaming stood for and has done nothing short of poisoning the industry from the inside out.