PS1 & PS2 light gun interfaces

[kilroy]

  Has anyone tried, been succesfull, or seen anyone interfaceing a PS1 or PS2 light gun to a PC and using them in mame?  It certainly seems "do-able" to me.  Especially the PS2 since the PS2 uses standard USB drivers.  It would seem to me that a PC might detect a PS2 light gun as a ligth pen.  Has anyone tried this?  Any advice?

  Please don't tell me to just go get an ActLab gun.  They are too ugly, too expensive, and I'm using a TV not a VGA monitor.

[SNAAAKE]

-EDIT

Sorry it was my mistake,didnt read carefully  

[kilroy]

  You do realize you are contradicting yourself right?  You said it can't be done and then you ive me a link to a product that interfaces PS1 controllers to a PC that claims to work with any PS1 controller.  Also the light states:

 

Also, this adapter allows Playstation light guns to be used with the Playstation 2 - play Guncon2 games with older light guns.

That would suggest to me that the PS2 uses the same USB drivers as the PC.  Which would mean I should be able to use a PS2 gun with my PC with little to no problem.  Even if I need the driver for it I'm sure I can get it from somewhere.

[Spaced Invader]

 You do realize you are contradicting yourself right?  You said it can't be done and then you ive me a link to a product that interfaces PS1 controllers to a PC that claims to work with any PS1 controller.  Also the light states:

 

Also, this adapter allows Playstation light guns to be used with the Playstation 2 - play Guncon2 games with older light guns.

That would suggest to me that the PS2 uses the same USB drivers as the PC.  Which would mean I should be able to use a PS2 gun with my PC with little to no problem.  Even if I need the driver for it I'm sure I can get it from somewhere.

And you realize that if it were that easy everyone would be doing it! USB is an interface to the system (not a driver) it doesn't provide compatibility with differing hardware...just because you can sew a monkey heart into a human body (same interface) that doesn't mean it will keep on pumpin' (too many low level hardware differences). Won't work!

And don't be nasty to Snaaake...he provided you with a link he thought might be useful (it's not the lightgun function is only to adapt ps1 guns to ps2 not a pc...read carefully), and when he said no you can't he was right!

Please, feel free to prove me wrong...  

You won't...

[SNAAAKE]

My bad,I didnt read carefully.I thought it was for pc  
What the hell...

[armad1ll0]

I have serious doubts to this.

The Guncon controllers in particular would not work because of the way that they work. There is a video loop in there and it checks itself. Computers put out a totally different video signal (VGA) than NTSC video. Even if you figured out where to plug everything in, it would not work.

The Konami standard Justifier PSX light gun may work but I think that a custom driver would have to be written for that gun to work on a PSX to USB adaptor.

[RacerX]

I'm getting really old.  I saw PS1 and PS2 and immediately thought of machines by IBM instead of Sony.  The sad thing is that I can remember a lot further back than that...  

[Lilwolf]

Yes it HAS been tried.  Everything like it has been tried.

And nothing works.

PS2 USB and XBox USB are NOT the same a PC USB.  I hope someone writes a driver to allow them to work... but they are different.

Then after that... expect to have to write your own hardware level driver...  

After that I'm assuming that your will have saved enought money from not buying an actlabs lightgun that it was COMPLETELY worth your time.

I would expect it would be easier to start from scratch myself.  But I would go in a different route if I was going to make a light gun.  I have ideas on how to do it... and want to spend the time... but my 3 year old girl already makes gun noices with her finger and my wife wont let me get more guns in the house...

[kilroy]

  I know USB is an interface to the system.  But there are drivers that go along with USB devices.  A lot of devices use standard drivers that are already included with Windows especially if you are running XP.  (XP contains more drivers simply because it is an updated version of windows and they added all the new standard goodies just to make it easier to use)  Light guns work on the same priciple that light pens do which is why I would suspect that a PS2 light gun might be detected and a standard light pen and work witht that driver.  The driver may not be included with Windows 98 but I'm sure they are available for download somewhere and I'm also certain that they are included in Windows XP.

  PS2 certainly does use the same standard drivers.  Sony initially stated that when they released the PS2 but have since down played that fact.  After all, why would you buy a PS2 keyboard for $30 when you could get a standard USB keyboard for $10-15?  ANd yes it does work.  I'm use a standard USB keyboard with my PS2.  A co worker actually uses a PS2 (the din interface not Playstation 2) keyboard with a USB adapter into his Playstation 2 and has no problems.

  Lilwolf, my issue with the ActLabs guns aren't strictly about the cost, although that is a part of it.  Another issue I have with them is that they don't look anything like any of the arcade light guns I have ever seen.  I want something that will look and feel like it should be in an arcade.  I also need something that will work with a TV and NOT a VGA.

  I also realize that the difference between NTSC and VGA monitors and I know a PS2 gun won't work with a VGA monitor.  That's why I stated that I'm using a TV and NOT a VGA monitor.  I stress the NOT in order to clarify and not to just be a jerk. (As some may think)  People seem to constantly overlook the fact that I'm using a standard TV and tell me that a PS2 gun won't work with a VGA monitor.


  Spaced Invader I did not mean to be nasty to Snaaake, I was merely pointing out what I saw as a bit of inconsistancy in with his statement.  If Snaaake was offended I would appreciate it if he told me so.  Otherwise, I don't expect any offense was taken.  You are actually attacking me realatively aggresively considering the remarks were not directed towards you.  You seem to be one of the many idividuals that I've run into that are very wuick to say it can't be done now shut up and buy that overpriced ugly peice of plastic overthere.  I appreciate any useful information that anyone is willing to share that would help me acheive the end results I want (a cost effective light gun that will interface to my pc, work with mame, work with the TV I'm using as a monitor, and look and feel like it would belong in an arcade).  If you have nothing to contribute then please don't put me down for trying.  If I do prove you wrong you will not hear from me though.  I have no need to get all cocky and say "See I told you so".  You might want to check into that transplant analogy though.  I think it may be a bit flawed as I seem to remember hearing about at least some success with baboon hearts at one time.  I think the project was terminated for ethical reasons.  I'm not sure how far the project went though (Sorry, I have pretty varied interests and pick up at least a little bit of knowledge of just about everything.  Some things stick and other don't.  I have a bad habit of sharing the strange and varied facts when they pop up.  This one definitely falls into the strange category).

RacerX, I actually have an old IBM PS2 computer sitting in my spare room.  It does run but I don't have a CD drive for it not do I have Windows as a floppy installation.  So right now I'm limited to running DOS on it (which I don't overly mind).  I'm hoping to "restore" it one of these days and have a nice little peice of PC history to show off how much of a geek I really am once you get to know me. lol  I had a PS1 but it didn't work.  It had a problem on the motherboard somewhere and after spending a month of intesive work and research I junked it.  That was a sad day.  Almost as sad as the day when I found out my mom threw out my old 8088 based Leading Edge with dual 5 1/4" floppies. (Hard drives were just coming out then but my dad refused to get one because he said that they would never catch on)

  If anyone has any info that would be of help I would greatly appreciate it.

[Dave_K.]

Its is technically possible although nobody has written a driver for windows.  Some college student did write a linux driver for the usb guncon2 (of course it requires an NTSC output graphics card).  I lost the link to the site which had the driver, but I believe I still have the tar file at work (if I ever got the urge to learn about low level C device driver code).  There is zero support and zero documentation...so unless you are a serious linux programming guru, don't even bother going further down that road.

[kilroy]

  Yeah, I have composite and s-video out of my video card.  That's one reason I'm opting for a 25" TV.  That and the fact that a 25" monitor is extrememly expensive.  

  It's also a source of frustration for me since I keep stating that I have composite video out and am using a standard TV and I keep getting critical responses from people everywhere I ask telling me I can't use a PS1/2 gun with a VGA monitor.  Duh, I know that.  That's why I stated I'm using a NTSC (Never The Same Color Twice) TV and NOT a VGA monitor.  It just shows me that people are so quick to say it can't be done that they don't even thoroughly read my posts.  It's very discouraging.

  I'm not planning on giving up on this so easily though.  After all, it really would be a shame to be sitting here with a 25" Atari cabinet that used to be equiped with light guns and not have them.

[u_rebelscum]

Few things to point out, and then my opinion:

USB Keyboard is very different than USB mouse or USB joystick.

Just because something works one dirrection doesn't mean it will work the other.

Lightguns can be seen by the PC as either a mouse, or an analog joystick.
Same on the PS2.  (currently mouse is the best way in a PC, but I don't know about PS2.)  
Usually a mouse driver won't work on a joystick, and vis versa.  Are you sure the lightgun is a mouse to a PS2, or is it a joystick?  (see next point, too)

Add to that, PS1 & 2 seem to have four different lightgun "standards": at least the lightguns I looked at this weekend had four position switches: PS1, PS2, Guncon1, Guncon2.  (BTW, can anyone in the know describe the differences, or point me to a link, between the guncons and normal PS2 data formats?)

There are "USB" mice (and other devices) that work in windows but not Macs, and vis versa.  

At least one playstation2 lightgun can be used on a VGA monitor (with upscanned signal).  Does not say anything about on a PC, though.

IIRC, there was all this hype on the PS2 being USB compatable, and then a small article saying the PS2 is close to the USB standard but is having problems, and then a small blurb on PS2 not being close enough to be called "USB compliant", and then nothing at all.  (And keyboards working does not prove it is totally "USB compliant")

There is the option of moving the actlab lightgun sensor into a different case.  Hard part, of course, is securing the lens & sensor, then lining up the lens/sensor with the new case's sights, and finally fitting the circuits in the new case.



IMO, the biggest thing to worry about is:
"What is the lightgun to a playstation: a mouse, or a joystick, or a combo or something else."  

And the immediate followups,
"What USB ID (if any) do the lightguns use, so drivers can be setup or if needed written?", and
"Is there already a win driver that can work with this?"
Then again, I might be just thinking in the box.

[DARRYLICSHON]

has anyone tryed the super joy box it connects your ps controlers to the pc and works with the joysticks , but i don't know about the light guns

[kilroy]

  u_rebelscum, please re-read my previous post with regards to the PS2 lightgun and a vga monitor.  I very clearly stated I'm NOT using a VGA monitor.  I'm using a standard NTSC TV.  People keep over looking that fact and it's becoming quite annoying.  Especially since that's why I CAN'T use a PC light gun.  Like I said that comes across to me that people are very quick to say it can't be done and aren't reading my posts completely.

  I also considered trying to move the ActLabs USB/TV modelover into another light gun.  But I'm not about to drop $90 on 2 guns, tear them apart and then spend another $40-60 for another set of guns to just use the outer cases.  Especially when there's a risk of screwing it up if it's not perfect.  Then I have to go out and spend at least another $20.  A set of light guns is not worth $130+.

  As far as the PS2 Usb, I'm also using a linksys usb ethernet adapter with it with no problems.  That would suggest to me that the drivers are mostly the same.  I'm going to see if I can get my hands on at least one style of light gun for the PS2 and see if my system will recognize it.  Even if it doesn't work but recognizes the gun as a mouse or joystick it will give me someplace to start and perhaps give some others a few ideas.

  DARRYLICSHON, if u_rebelscum is right in that some lightguns are detected by the PS1/2 as an analog joystick then it might be possible to use one of the comercially available interfaces.  You would have to find the proper type of light gun to use with it though, if it works at all.  I've tried e-mailing a manufacturer of one of the many interfaces out there.  Just like quite a few people on forums, they over looked the fact that I'm using a TV and NOT a VGA monitor.  The reason they gave me was that PS1/2 light guns won't work with a VGA monitor.  So I don't know if that is really the only issue preventing the gun from working with a PC through thier interface or not.

[Dave_K.]

 u_rebelscum, please re-read my previous post with regards to the PS2 lightgun and a vga monitor.  I very clearly stated I'm NOT using a VGA monitor.  

I don't understand why you are so sensative over this issue, u_rebelscum mearly stated that there are cases the guncon2 can support a higher sync rate than NTSC/15khz.  He was not slamming you or anything.  I have also confirmed the guncon2 can indeed work with a vga monitor (I wrote this in the Game Consoles FAQ last year).

I'm going to see if I can get my hands on at least one style of light gun for the PS2 and see if my system will recognize it.  Even if it doesn't work but recognizes the gun as a mouse or joystick it will give me someplace to start and perhaps give some others a few ideas.

I don't think you understand what people are trying to tell you here.  Your Windows system will not, can not, and will never, recognize a guncon2 as anything.  That is unless somebody writes a UDB driver specifically for it.  You are dreaming if you think it your system will magically use some generic mouse or light pointer or whatever device...it simply will not.  And don't you think people have tried this before??

Anyway, if you don't want to let go of this thought, then I suggest you persue a petition or something to gain support from developers to write a windows USB driver for it.  Maybe look around on sourceforge for developers doing something similar and try to garner some interest in this type of project.  I see this as a much better use of time than defending meaningless arguments about wether you are using it on a VGA or NTSC monitor  .

[kilroy]

  I didn't say he was slamming me, nor is it meaningless to restate what equipment I am using.  Everyone keeps telling me that PS1/2 guns won't work with a VGA monitor, which is something I already know.  What thier statements tell me is that they are not really reading what I'm posting and just saying it can be done.  So once again I was clarifying that I was using a TV and NOT a VGA.  I'm finding I have to sort of constantly remind people of that fact to get it through and then I get a negative response when I do.

  I don't care that most PS1/2 light guns won't work with a VGA monitor because I'm not using one.  Nor do I care that a guncon2 can for the same reason.  What I would like is for some suggestions on how to interface the light gun to my PC for use in MAME.

  What you are probably picking up on in my posts as the progress is not "attitude" of any sort.  It's frustration.  For the source of my frustration re-read the first paragraph of this post.  75% of the responses to my post have made me want to scream.  A few folks have been a little helpful.  But, the defeatist attitude that I'm being faced with in regards to this topic are very discouraging.  (And yes saying give up and buy some ugly expensive light gun that works is a defeatist attitude)

  I'm also not hoping for the gun to just "magically" work.  I realize that they would need thier own seperate drivers.  But if the system detected the gun (which it should) even if it didn't have the proper driver it may detect what kind of device it is designed to emulate (ie mouse or analog joystick).  That information may be helpful for someone else who may want to persue this issue.  If it for example was detected as a mouse I would imagine it might be easier to use a standard mouse driver as a starting point rather than starting from scratch.

  Writing a USB driver isn't too far fetched.  My company just recently developed a new product that uses a custom USB interface card.  Both my boss and out R&D guy still have that stuff fresh in thier heads.  I'm sure I could possibly glean enough knowledge from them and the now left over develpment kit to maybe start working something out.  I might even be able to convince one of them to actively give me a hand.  With my luck by the time I'm done with my cabinet someone might have already made one.

[kilroy]

  I just had another though about what DaveK had previously stated about the possibility of a linux driver.  It occured to me that Sony has a linux kit for the PS2.  The purpose of the kit is to give people a cost effective game development system for the PS2.  I'm wondering if there is a way to export the light gun drivers from the games that use them and bring them into a PC linux environment.  Even if they require "tweaking" it might prove to be much easier to do it this way rather than to write one from scratch.  Understanding how the linux driver works would probably also help with the development of a windows driver.

[aredhel]

some questions:

1) Does the video signal go through the gun?  If not you shuld give up unless you know some one who is willing to hack on your vieod driver.

2) plug the gun in to a computer and see if its a HID v1.00 device. ( under linux you run dmesg and look for a line that starts "input: USB HID v1.00" )  If it does then it should just work for xmame and in any case writing mame level drivers for it should be simple.

3) if you plug it in and get unknown USB device vender id FOO, then the usb protocol needs to be worked out and a usb device driver writen as well as a mame level driver.


I could help out with 2, at least on the linux end of things.
3 is a lot of work, and with any thing else it would be better to change the looks of the actlabs gun.

[kilroy]

  This is how I understand most PS2 light guns work.  The video doesn't go thought the gun per say.  They have a feed through connector where they sample the video signal.  The gun "looks" at the screen and waits for the scan line to pass in front of it.  The gun then knows what scan line and where on the scan line it's pointing and hence where you are aiming.
 
  Some games (like  NES games) actually have a light spot in the center of targets and the gun knows when you hit the target by looking for the light spot.

  Others flash the targets at a rate too fast for the human eye to percieve.  The gun however can and knows that it's pointing at the target by sensing the flashing.  Those old VCR light gun games worked like that.

  I've been meaning to get around to setting up my PC as a dual boot system again. (I made and unfortunate partitioning error and lost everything a few months ago.  Windows, linux, everything!  About 80G worth of data. Argh!)  What distrobution would you recommend?  I have Mandrake, Debian, and Red Hat as well as a few other smaller distros (Lycoris, Evil Entity, Gentoo, Ice Pack, Suse, Knoppix, and a few others).

[aredhel]

 This is how I understand most PS2 light guns work.  The video doesn't go thought the gun per say.  They have a feed through connector where they sample the video signal.  The gun "looks" at the screen and waits for the scan line to pass in front of it.  The gun then knows what scan line and where on the scan line it's pointing and hence where you are aiming.

Good it should be sending x,y coordinates back to the computer which means it should be doable.  The next step is to see what type of device the computer thinks it is and what type of data it sends.

 I've been meaning to get around to setting up my PC as a dual boot system again. (I made and unfortunate partitioning error and lost everything a few months ago.  Windows, linux, everything!  About 80G worth of data. Argh!)  What distrobution would you recommend?  I have Mandrake, Debian, and Red Hat as well as a few other smaller distros (Lycoris, Evil Entity, Gentoo, Ice Pack, Suse, Knoppix, and a few others).

In a cab stability is king so Debian stable is the clear leader.

For a desktop box where you want to keep up on new programs as they come out you can pick any one.  I use Debian testing, but thats just because my servers run Debian.

If you don't want to install linux on you hard drive then you have knoppix for desktop work and AdvanceCD http://advancemame.sourceforge.net/cd-download.html for mame.

AdvanceCD doesn't work with my monitor, but it's really old and is vary fussy about it's timings.

[kilroy]

  I just though of something else.  I'm gong to have to make sure whatever distro I use will support my video card.  Otherwise, I'm kissing my composite out goodbye and will find myself stuck with a pricey VGA monitor.

  I'll do that bit of research tomorrow.

[aredhel]

 I just though of something else.  I'm gong to have to make sure whatever distro I use will support my video card.  Otherwise, I'm kissing my composite out goodbye and will find myself stuck with a pricey VGA monitor.

  I'll do that bit of research tomorrow.

It's not the distro so much as the linux kernel it's self or the program your runing.  If you can get the board to show the bios set up on the tv then you should be able to run linux in vesaFB mode and have it work.  If not not look at the docs for, the kernel fb driver for you card, Xfree86, and xmame/advancemame.

And your video card is?

[kilroy]

ECS AG315T.  It uses a SIS 315 controller.  Unfortunately it's not very linux friendly.  I have used it with linux in the past but I've never looked to see if I could get video out of the composite.  If not I'll just find an AGP card that will work.  ATI and Nvida are more linux friendly.  One of the All-In-Wonder cards should work well for me if my ECS doesn't work.

[aredhel]

http://www.winischhofer.net/linuxsis630.shtml looks to be the place for linux on sis hardware.

[Setabs]

When you say composite is that the coaxial cable, RCA cable or s-video?  Because depending on which you use might determine wether this is doable or not.

The guncon I own for ps1 has a cable that plugs into the video feed from the ps1 to the tv and this connection is rca.  My question is how would you combine the two signals on your tv if they are going to different video inputs on the tv?

[kilroy]

  The RCA connector is the composite.  The coaxial cable is the NTSC and the din connector is the s-video.  You can't combine two video signals going into the TV on 2 different inputs.  The PS1/2 guns sample use the RCA type connector to sample the composite video.  That is to say it splits the signal so that it goes to both the TV and the gun.  The gun uses the signal as a reference so it knows where you are pointing the gun.

  Incedentally, there are adapters out there to get composite out from the s-video.  I think they are like $5 at Rasdio Shack.  It's pretty easy to make one but the parts will probably cost you $3-4 so it's not really worth it.

[u_rebelscum]

 u_rebelscum, please re-read my previous post with regards to the PS2 lightgun and a vga monitor.  I very clearly stated I'm NOT using a VGA monitor.  I'm using a standard NTSC TV.  People keep over looking that fact and it's becoming quite annoying.  Especially since that's why I CAN'T use a PC light gun.  Like I said that comes across to me that people are very quick to say it can't be done and aren't reading my posts completely.

First, I knew you don't have a VGA monitor; you have stated that many times.  I was listing a bunch of points relevant to this thread, not just your situation.  It is relevant because it shows the statements that are frustrating you are partially wrong.


Second, I'm not sure if you read my point, because it is the opposite from everyone else's that you are finding annoying.  

The  people giving advice to you now, and those that will read this thread for help in the future, should know that it is possible to use some PS2 lightguns on some VGA monitors.  When they (and you) say it is impossible, it is not completely correct.  For me not to point this out, in a thread that will be readable for years (hopefully) to come, is not responsible of me.

Remember, this is a forum open to the public.  These forums currently save their threads "forever".  The advice given is not only for you, but everyone else who reads it now and in the future.  Any false advice will be saved along with the true.  (I know, I've given bad advice before. )


Finally, that was just one point in eight, and I state at the end it is not important to your situation (err, I don't state it is important to your situation ).  I could have included a lot of qualifiers in that point, like "and to the statements that you can't connect PS lightguns to VGA monitors", or "something that is 'known' in this thread is not competely correct", but I felt that was going to be understood and thus unneeded, and too wordly in an already fairly long post.  I also did not want to hijack this thread, so tried to keep that point small compaired to the others.  Maybe I should have put the qualifiers, but all my posts are usually too long already (look at this one, I meant it to be short and simple, but didn't want to sound like an a--hole, and came up with this).

Sorry if it caused you any frustrations, as it was more aimed at other posts causing your frustrations in the first place.