Sound Stuttering and D3D vs Ddraw

[AMDman13]

Hi all, old mame user here, but new to Groovymame. I have used Mame on my Betson Kortek for many years and have used either the AVGA or Soft15khz with an Nvidia card. I have always used Ddraw. These setups although not ideal have always provided smooth emulation. I recently did a huge HW upgrade and decided to try Groovymame but, I am getting some sound stuttering issues. These weren't there before ,so I thought I would post my setup and see if I could get some help. I have tried searching and am not able to figure out what might be going on. Current set up is
AMD Phenom II X4 965 at 3.7ghz.
ATI 4850HD
Here is the text that I get from running kinst2 one of the notable games to have slight stuttering.  One other thing worth mentioning is that Ddraw on my setup is deathly slow. I know this because I am also running Zinc and using Ddraw is just painful. Any thoughts or suggestions would be great.

[Calamity]

Your log shows kinst2 running at 97%, that's the source of the sound stuttering. I'm not sure if your CPU can handle it or not. Anyway enabing -triplebuffer & -multithreading will help, *But* only do it for the specific games that need it, not as a general setting.

[AMDman13]

Thanks Calamity. I set up an individual game ini for kinst2, but it didn't seem to help. Did I set up the ini correctly? Setup as kinst2.ini. I also, pointed my mame.ini t the correct pathway. This is what it reads.

resolution auto
triplebuffer   1
multithreading 1       

  Strangely enough running kinst 2 with vanilla mame v 144 gives 100% speed and flawless sound. Here is the log from that if it helps. Is the difference in speed because of the different mame versions? If so I may run both.

[AMDman13]

Do you think switching to a 64bit OS would give me the 3% boost I need to get games like kinst2 to run at 100%? I have been hesitant to make the switch for my Cab as I hear its a bit of a pain to hide windows. Currently I am running XP 32 bit. I can put 64bit Windows 7 on there.

I am not willing to admit that the AMD Phenom II X4 965 at 3.7ghz is not fast enough. I also am sporting 8 gigs of Ram. I know its a waste right now (XP32).

[8BitMonk]

I have almost an identical setup and mine runs at a solid 100%

phenom II black 955 3.2
win7 64
Radeon 4870

I notice a slight difference in our modelines, attached mine for comparison. Disregard the fact that yours chooses 1 and mine select 0, I labelled mine 0-7 instead of 1-8, see below.

 crt_range0    15625-16240, 50-65, 3.000, 4.700, 7.700, 0.190, 0.191, 1.018, 0, 0, 192, 248, 0, 0
crt_range1    16029-17200, 50-65, 1.220, 4.728, 7.626, 0.190, 0.191, 1.018, 0, 0, 249, 256, 0, 0
crt_range2    18300-18800, 50-65, 8.300, 2.750, 9.000, 0.190, 0.191, 1.018, 0, 0, 257, 280, 0, 0
crt_range3    18448-31000, 50-65, 6.278, 2.058, 7.410, 0.799, 0.828, .876, 0, 0, 281, 360, 0, 0
crt_range4    24000-29000, 58-65, 1.163, 3.595, 1.798, 0.081, 0.162, 0.889, 0, 0, 376, 384, 0, 0
crt_range5    24000-29000, 57-65, 1.549, 2.820, 6.502, 0.225, 0.150, 2.021, 0, 0, 392, 400, 0, 0
crt_range6    30000-34000, 58-65, 0.636, 3.813, 1.906, 0.020, 0.106, 0.607, 0, 0, 432, 496, 0, 0
crt_range7    33001-38000, 58-65, 0.942, 3.062, 2.827, 0.471, 0.118, 0.972, 0, 0, 512, 588, 0, 0

Both are selecting D3D. Did you update to the newest vmmaker and arcadeosd? When you go into the mame menu does it show it running at 60hz?

[AMDman13]

Hi 8Bit thanks for the help. I did use the latest driver. Although I reinstalled in over existing. Not sure how to clean install.  When I am in the Mame menu my Betson shows 30.6khz and 61hz. I will update my modelines and report back. Our setups are supper close.  I doubt this is CPU related. Although you are running at Windows 7 64 and I am using XP32

[AMDman13]

Ok so, I reinstalled vmmaker 1.4 and did a fresh mame.ini with a cut and paste here. Here are the latest and greatest results. Still not running at 100%. Seems to choose the right hz now.  Any other thoughts.?

[Calamity]

Hi AMDman13,

In order to make sure that the latest driver is actually the one in use, launch Arcade OSD and test one of your 2560x modes. Then try to make any geometry adjustment, like shifting the horizontal centering all to the left, etc. Press "1" and check if the changes actually take effect.

This is important because previous versions of the driver couldn't update modelines on the fly if the number of modes was under 17 (typical case when you use "super" resolutions").

To remove the existing driver please use the control panel uninstaller.

[AMDman13]

Thanks Calamity I really appreciate your help! Yes, I was able to confirm that ArcadeOSD is able to update on the fly. No problem there.

I then performed a uninstall through the Control Panel and did complete re-install of all ATI drivers. I even went through the registry and cleaned up any remaining ATI entries. Next, I ran Mame. but still no change in KINST2's speed. I then realized something that I honestly didn't think would make a difference. I have been running my ROMS off of a External USB Drive, since the update of my HW and install Groovymame. Tonight after the complete re-install I decided to copy the KINST2 ROMS to the SATA2 Internal and give it a go. I am happy to report I am getting closer to 100%. It made about a 1.5% difference.  I honestly didn't think it would matter, but then thought to myself, "Well KINT2" does demand a CHD... Results are still not 100% like I would have hoped, but closer. Here is the latest (after re-install of mame154b, groovymame_154, vmaker 1.4, and Calamity's own modified Catalyst 9.3)
All for my system which is"
Windows XP32
AMD 64bit AMD Phenom II Black X4 965 at 3.7ghz
8gigs GSkill RipJaws of Ram (can't remember model)
ATI 4850HD
Any other thoughts would be greatly appreciated! If installing Windows 7 64 bit will get me over the hump, let me know and I will do it. Thanks so much! Please see attached lasted kinst2.txt

[8BitMonk]

After the update did you try with triplebuffer and multithreading off again? Are your roms clrmame pro checked? I'm running a checked version of .154 mame/roms. How much RAM? I have 12Gb. That's the only other differences I can think of.

[cools]

What internal drive is it?

[AMDman13]

Thanks everyone for the continued support. The Internal drive is a Sata II Western Digital Cavier 250gb. I have actually tried multiple drives now (even a SSD Kingston) all to no avail. A lot of games either play slightly too fast or slightly too slow. Yesterday, I did a format and re-install of WinXP 32bit and all of Calamity's driver.. Still same results.

Thanks for the suggestion 8bit. I'll give clrmame a go. Worth a shot. I am currently using 155 merged set from [website redacted per rule 5].

[8BitMonk]

Did you compile your own .155 version of groovymame because the latest version without compiling your own is .154? If you're running .155 roms with a .154 version of groovymame that could be your issue and explain why it works with your vanilla version of mame if it's .155. That would also explain why it might be happening in a lot of games.

[cools]

Go 64bit.

[AMDman13]

Go 64bit.

Right? My thoughts too. I tried going Windows 7 64 a few days ago. I couldn't for the life of me get Vm_Maker to work. I think the Win 7 CRT-Emudriver wasn't installed correctly. Although, I tried re-installing several times. Anyway, I gave up. Not sure what to do at this point. I think I will clrmamepro my 155 set and then compile groovymame to 155 and see what happens. Although, I wish I could have gotten 64 bit to have worked. I feel this would be the best way to go from here.

[8BitMonk]

That's really strange, I had no problems getting vm_maker to work with win7 64bit. Before taking the time to compile a new groovymame I'd find a .154 rom of kinst2 and test it and see if there's an improvement.

[AMDman13]

Great idea. Now let's see if I can find this bad boy. Maybe clrmamepro can fix it?

[cools]

A different ROM or CHD won't make any difference, GroovyMAME won't even run with the wrong dump.

[AMDman13]

A different ROM or CHD won't make any difference, GroovyMAME won't even run with the wrong dump.

That's what I always thought too, but I am desperately drawing at straws here. One other odd thing is when running kinst2 from the dos prompt I get memory leak errors. Perhaps this is an issue to be concern about? I have two sets one is v141 with Vanilla Mame and the other is 155. Only the 155 version creates the memory leaks

[Calamity]

Hi AMDman13,

Until I release the official GM 155, you should be running the 154 version for these tests. This shouldn't have memory leaks. Regarding the speed issue, the first thing I'd check is how fast it can run unthrottled (F10). BTW comparing 155 with 141 is not worth. You should use baseline 154 vs GM 154 for a proper test, and force GM to run without syncrefresh (from command line: -nosrf).

To put it short: GM *is* MAME + syncrefresh.

[AMDman13]

Thank you Calamity. I tried your suggestions and put GM up against several more modern versions of Vanilla Mame and tested kinst2. First I tried 155 same results as GM, then 154 same, last 151. I can say that all fall below 100% even at default settings. All but 151, also show memory leaks. So, GM is not the culprit here. The trouble is I do t know what is  Also running on Vanilla 154 un-throttled resulted in an average speed 117.80%, but the sound still skips at the intro even though it's playing super fast.

[AMDman13]

I've come to the determination that this is HW related although I am not sure where else to look

[Calamity]

Other users had problems running newer hardware with XP:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,137647.msg1420707.html#msg1420707

Try installing W7, and tell us when you run into problems installing CRT Emudriver.

[AMDman13]

Sounds good Calamity. I probably need to,  even though I am nervous to do it again. I'll give it another go and post back. I have read through the WIN 7 CRT portion of the forum a few times now and I feel a little better prepared. Please have mercy on me when I come back with more noobie questions.
Thanks again!

[krick]

Do you think switching to a 64bit OS would give me the 3% boost I need to get games like kinst2 to run at 100%? I have been hesitant to make the switch for my Cab as I hear its a bit of a pain to hide windows. Currently I am running XP 32 bit. I can put 64bit Windows 7 on there.

Give Windows XP x64 edition a try.

[AMDman13]

Well, I gave Windows 7 64 a try on this hardware and the install and everything went smoothly, except the dreaded speed issues for both Mame 154 and Groovymame 154 remained. Installing Windows 7 64 made no difference. This must truly be hardware related and I am at a complete loss.
Again I am sporting the following:

AMD Phenom II 965 Black Edition (Quad core at 3.7ghz).
G-Skill DDR3 1866 Ripjaws dual channel 2x4gigabytes for a total of 8 gigs.
Gigabyte Motherboard GA-790XTA-UD4
Soundblaster Audigy 2 ZS

My plans are to build a second rig and see if this makes any difference. It is my retired but trusty 939 AMD FX-60 Dual core 2.6ghz. With 4 GB of DDR Ram.  If this set up runs KINST2 at 100% I will be completely confused. I will start with XP32 and go from there. I will report back soon

[krick]

I'm not sure if you're aware, but MAME tends to run a LOT faster on Intel CPUs.  Basically, once Intel introduced the Core2Duo line, AMD was left in the dust.

Also, switching from 32 bit to 64 bit usually gives a 25% or more speed bump, at least on Intel hardware.  Not sure about AMD.

[AMDman13]

I'm not sure if you're aware, but MAME tends to run a LOT faster on Intel CPUs.  Basically, once Intel introduced the Core2Duo line, AMD was left in the dust.

Also, switching from 32 bit to 64 bit usually gives a 25% or more speed bump, at least on Intel hardware.  Not sure about AMD.

Yea I think it safe to say I have been in denial for about 10 years now.. A couple of thoughts I have.. Do you think it is safe to say that since 7 64 didn't make a huge difference the same could be said for XP 64?  I can bag 64XP for relatively cheap online

[krick]

Do you think it is safe to say that since 7 64 didn't make a huge difference the same could be said for XP 64?  I can bag 64XP for relatively cheap online

From what I've seen reported by other users, the speed bump for Win7 64-bit is slightly higher than XP x64.  I think there's other architectural changes in Win7 that reduce some OS overhead or something.   So you should probably expect less of a speed bump with XP x64 Edition than with Windows 7 64-bit.

Personally, I'm going to stick with XP x64 as long as possible because Windows 7 is a pain in the ass for a MAME cabinet.

My understanding is that the last Intel hardware that supports XP x64 are certain Haswell chipsets, but only when using specific Intel chipset driver package.  More info here...
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,139890.0.html

[8BitMonk]

I'm not sure if you're aware, but MAME tends to run a LOT faster on Intel CPUs.  Basically, once Intel introduced the Core2Duo line, AMD was left in the dust.

I respectfully disagree. You're not going to see a noticeable difference running comparable Intel/AMD CPU's with Mame. Doubt this is an AMD vs. Intel or even a processor speed issue. I have an almost identical setup and it's running at 100%.

Personally, I'm going to stick with XP x64 as long as possible because Windows 7 is a pain in the ass for a MAME cabinet.

What specifically is a pain in the ass? I've had zero issues running mame in Windows 7.

[cools]

MAME CPU ranking https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html

[krick]

I'm not sure if you're aware, but MAME tends to run a LOT faster on Intel CPUs.  Basically, once Intel introduced the Core2Duo line, AMD was left in the dust.

I respectfully disagree. You're not going to see a noticeable difference running comparable Intel/AMD CPU's with Mame. Doubt this is an AMD vs. Intel or even a processor speed issue. I have an almost identical setup and it's running at 100%.

I am not speaking to the OPs specific issue.  His CPU may be fully capable of running kinst at 100%.

However, the performance difference between AMD and Intel in most of the more processor intensive MAME drivers has been documented with benchmarks and backed up by comments on the subject by several MAME devs.

It has been speculated that Intel architecture still favors single-threaded performance, and that AMD has given up the single-threaded competition and instead focused on multi-threaded parallel processing performance.

Some of the benchmarks are posted here.  In particular, compare the AMD chip at 4.8GHz to the Intel chip at 4.8GHz.
http://www.mameui.info/Bench/Bench.htm

Frankly, in addition to MAME 0.141 benchmarks for modern AMD CPUs, I'd really like to see a new round of benchmarks using the latest version of MAME, especially since the latest MAME tool chain is now using a newer version of GCC (4.4.7 for 0.141 vs  4.9.1 for 0.155).

They could really use some more modern AMD CPU benchmarks if anyone is willing to contribute.
I did some benchmarking on my Intel i5 Sandy Bridge last year...
http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Number=309649

Personally, I'm going to stick with XP x64 as long as possible because Windows 7 is a pain in the ass for a MAME cabinet.

What specifically is a pain in the ass? I've had zero issues running mame in Windows 7.

Are you running it on an arcade monitor?  My experiences with Windows 7 were when I was using an ArcadeVGA and a 15KHz arcade monitor.  I ran into a bunch of issues with interlaced/non-interlaced resolution switching and also interlaced games (mainly vector games) running at half speed.  I also wasn't able to "hide" Windows 7 as easily as XP.

I'm sure now that Calamity has CRT_EmuDriver for Windows 7, things are probably a little better.

Someday, I'll be forced to revisit Windows 7, but that time has not arrived yet.

[8BitMonk]

Some of the benchmarks are posted here.  In particular, compare the AMD chip at 4.8GHz to the Intel chip at 4.8GHz.
http://www.mameui.info/Bench/Bench.htm

Frankly, in addition to MAME 0.141 benchmarks for modern AMD CPUs, I'd really like to see a new round of benchmarks using the latest version of MAME, especially since the latest MAME tool chain is now using a newer version of GCC (4.4.7 for 0.141 vs  4.9.1 for 0.155).

Thanks, this is interesting, most of the comparisons I've heard have been anecdotal and not actual benchmarks so it's good to see some hard evidence behind the assertion. I'm still not convinced it's indicative of user experience while playing the majority of mame games though. I think you'd be hard pressed to feel a noticeable difference on truly like AMD/Intel CPU's. Those test games, while cpu intensive, aren't really a great representation of the majority of games. I agree, it would be interesting to see some more up to date benchmarking.

Are you running it on an arcade monitor?  My experiences with Windows 7 were when I was using an ArcadeVGA and a 15KHz arcade monitor.  I ran into a bunch of issues with interlaced/non-interlaced resolution switching and also interlaced games (mainly vector games) running at half speed.  I also wasn't able to "hide" Windows 7 as easily as XP.

Yep, running an arcade monitor and was formerly using an ArcadeVGA. I guess I sidestepped the res switch issue because I have a trisync monitor. I don't remember the vector game issue being Win7 related, I thought that was a specific version of mame? Not something I ran into though. I'm also not a fan of fully hiding the OS on bootup so that wasn't an issue for me.

[krick]

Thanks, this is interesting, most of the comparisons I've heard have been anecdotal and not actual benchmarks so it's good to see some hard evidence behind the assertion. I'm still not convinced it's indicative of user experience while playing the majority of mame games though. I think you'd be hard pressed to feel a noticeable difference on truly like AMD/Intel CPU's. Those test games, while cpu intensive, aren't really a great representation of the majority of games. I agree, it would be interesting to see some more up to date benchmarking.

Agreed.  The majority of games in MAME are not that CPU intensive.  Though, you'd be surprised that once they added discrete audio emulation, some games, like Asteroids, Phoenix, and Donkey Kong have gotten far more CPU intensive.

I guess I sidestepped the res switch issue because I have a trisync monitor.

I always wanted a trisync monitor.  I probably should do some research to figure out which was the best and pick up one (used) before they're completely gone.

I also have a limitation in that my cabinet is a narrow model that is exactly 24 inches wide inside.  So I'm restricted to monitors with 25 inch tubes, which I believe limits the choices somewhat.

I wish I had the time/money to pick up one of those chassis kits and a used TV with a quality tube and make my own arcade monitor.

[AMDman13]

I may give XP 64 a go on this rig, but I am skeptical to blow the $ on it since Win 7 64 did nothing. I too prefer XP for a Cab ( at least for now) easier to hide the OS and to shell. It makes me wonder if there is something in the bios that is limiting Mame. I can tell you that It passed Memtest overnight and Prime 95 stable. 

[cools]

You paid for the ROMs, too?

[krick]

It makes me wonder if there is something in the bios that is limiting Mame.

Do you have the latest BIOS for your motherboard?

I assume you're using onboard sound.  Maybe there's some sort of hardware level interrupt issue or conflict between the onboard sound and another device.

Some things to try...

1) remove all non-essential hardware: pci cards, USB devices
2) go into the BIOS settings and disable all unused items:  com ports, parallel ports, onboard raid, onboard video, etc...
3) make sure you have the latest sound drivers (directly from the sound chip manufacturer is usually best)
4) make sure you have the latest chipset drivers for your motherboard (again, directly from the chipset manufacturer if possible)
5) make sure you have the latest DirectX 9 installed:  http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=35
6) if none of the above works, maybe try a physical sound card (disable the onboard sound first, of course)
7) try using the minimum number of sticks of memory possible (usually 2, I think).  I've heard of systems where more than 2 causes issues.
8) If you're overclocking, try not overclocking and see if that helps

[Calamity]

Just a suggestion: burn an iso of Groovy Arcade 64-bit and give it a try, just to test MAME performance from a totally different OS. (GA is a bit outdated unfortunately).

[AMDman13]

You paid for the ROMs, too?

No.. I was talking about purchasing another OS (XP64).

Krick I will give you suggestions a try. I currently have On-Board sound disabled and am using a SB Audigy ZS 2. With latest drivers from Creative.

Thx Calamity I have it downloaded and ready to try as well.

Thanks everyone for the continued support.  I should have time tomorrow to try some things.
I will report back

[krick]

I currently have On-Board sound disabled and am using a SB Audigy ZS 2. With latest drivers from Creative.

I would try using the onboard sound to see if it makes any difference.
Creative labs has a history of releasing poorly written sound drivers that don't play nice with other devices and can lead to performance issues.

If the Audigy turns out to be the culprit, you can try re-installing it in different PCI slots to see if that helps.

I used to have a SoundBlaster Live! that was notoriously picky about which PCI slot it was in.  Pick the wrong slot and you get static during music playback.