Starting to come up with a second design/layout for CP # 2

[tma]

Hello,
Thought I'd build another CP (just CP top) with controllers that will allow me to hopefully play some games I've been really wanting to play.
Just looking for input, advice or any ideas

Here's a pic of my current CP (top), has Happ Super Joysticks (x2), 4-way joystick, oscar Spinner, Happ 3" trackball.
The bottom-bare cut out is the the start of #2.



Here's my cab after..12-13 years since I built it lol


Anyway, was thinking about making a CP with two mech. rotary joysticks.  There's several games I'm itching to play on it, including Ikari War.
As far as buttons for player 1 and 2 (rotary joy buttons)...not sure how many to add or the layout.
Btw, the rotary joystick that Happ sells is mechanical?

In the middle, I'd like to make a Steering wheel/Yoke(which I may try and build) mounting base or point.  For the pedals..gas and brake...was thinking of making a small recess at the bottom/centerish of the cab and under the coin mech.  Not sure what pedals to even look at (automotive, ones that come with some steering wheels....).  Ahh, How about a shifter?  Do I need it? or do most Steer wheels come with shifter on wheel?

The rest of the top..not sure what to do, apart from the Esc, coin, pause buttons...


Another thing is I like pinball (I know it's not the real thing but I still like it   was adding 1 maybe 2 buttons mounted on either side of the CP box...1 or 2 buttons?  This CP panel is not as wide as my first as I wanted to get as close as possible to the edge of the CP box, for pinball buttons on side.

Hmm..not sure what else, etc... but always like to hear any advise or ideas

Thomas

[PL1]

*** Check to be sure that you have at least 4-3/4" clearance under the panel for the sticks. ***

Happ makes both mechanical rotary (50-5618-00) and optical rotary (50-5619-00) joysticks. (Divemaster has both here -- specify 50-5618-00 in your order notes to be on the safe side)   

List of rotary games and MAME settings here -- Ikari 3 uses 3 buttons and all the others use less.

There are several Rotary Encoders to chose from.

I recommend a KADE or KADE-compatible Minimus ATMega32U2 AVR.

You can piggyback flippers (shown below) on certain player buttons, but since you're using swappable panels, I'd just use a KADE that stays in the CP box for the flipper/nudge/ball launch buttons.

No pinball tables have both Upper Flippers and MagnaSave, so you can wire both inputs to one button.

The pinball emulators are not as easily-configurable as MAME, so I suggest configuring the pinball controls like this for maximum compatibility.



PROTIP: Don't use normal microswitch pushbuttons for flippers. (too much hysteresis)  Goldleafs are much better. I've also heard lots of good things about the GGG Class-X with True-Leaf Pro, but haven't picked up any to confirm those claims/observations yet.

On the subject of steering wheel/pedals/shifter I recommend looking in the Driving & Racing forum.


Scott

[tma]

*** Check to be sure that you have at least 4-3/4" clearance under the panel for the sticks. ***

Happ makes both mechanical rotary (50-5618-00) and optical rotary (50-5619-00) joysticks. (Divemaster has both here -- specify 50-5618-00 in your order notes to be on the safe side)   

There are several Rotary Encoders to chose from.

I recommend a KADE or KADE-compatible Minimus ATMega32U2 AVR.

You can piggyback flippers (shown below) on certain player buttons, but since you're using swappable panels, I'd just use a KADE that stays in the CP box for the flipper/nudge/ball launch buttons.

No pinball tables have both Upper Flippers and MagnaSave, so you can wire both inputs to one button.


PROTIP: Don't use normal microswitch pushbuttons for flippers. (too much hysteresis)  Goldleafs are much better. I've also heard lots of good things about the GGG Class-X with True-Leaf Pro, but haven't picked up any to confirm those claims/observations yet.

On the subject of steering wheel/pedals/shifter I recommend looking in the Driving & Racing forum.


Scott

Many thanks for the reply and great info!
Just a few questions:

Do I need the special rotary encoder or will an I-pac or similar keyboard encoder work?

Forgive the dumb question...What exactly is 'hysteresis'?  And you're basically saying go with leafspring type pushbuttons for the flippers?

So you're saying only need 1 pushbutton on each side (for flippers)?  What about tilt, etc..?

Thanks again,

thomas

[EMDB]

Many thanks for the reply and great info!
Just a few questions:

Do I need the special rotary encoder or will an I-pac or similar keyboard encoder work?

Forgive the dumb question...What exactly is 'hysteresis'?  And you're basically saying go with leafspring type pushbuttons for the flippers?

So you're saying only need 1 pushbutton on each side (for flippers)?  What about tilt, etc..?

Thanks again,

thomas

The table clearly states Left Upper flipper, Left Lower flipper and Left Nudge (= Tilt) so 3 buttons per side...

[PL1]

Do I need the special rotary encoder or will an I-pac or similar keyboard encoder work?

An IPac won't work for the rotary part.

The rotary joystick has a 12-position switch (lower left) with a wiper arm (center top) like this one from an LS-30 (Ikari Warriors) rotary switch.

One of the outputs is always grounded ("pressed"), but you only want a keystroke sent when you turn the handle to the right or left.



Here's the basic theory of operation for the KADE and GP-Wiz40 encoders that use 3 inputs plus ground for rotary control. (From the KADE Forums thread here)

The 13 pin connector has 12 directions + ground.

Connect every third directional connection together and you're good-to-go -- 1(1), 2(2), 3(3), 4(1), 5(2), 6(3), 7(1), 8(2), 9(3), 10(1), 11(2), 12(3) + ground.

Only requires three inputs, output keystrokes on transitions.

Input 1->2, 2->3, or 3->1 = right turn.

Input 3->2, 2->1, or 1->3 = left turn.

Of the five encoders listed on lthe wiki page, only the GP-Wiz40, KADE, and Ultimarc rotary are commonly used. (Druin isn't making his anymore and the Hagstrom looks like an expensive "translator"  )

The Ultimarc is plug and play, but only handles the rotary function -- you'll need another encoder for the buttons/joystick directions. 

The GP-Wiz40 is a gamepad-style encoder that handles the rotary and the buttons/joystick directions.

The KADE rotary firmware is a keyboard-style encoder that handles the rotary and the buttons/joystick directions.

Since you're planning on using Visual Pinball, I recommend using the KADE since VP was originally designed to be played using a keyboard and almost all VP/FP tables are designed to work with the default keystrokes without any modifications/script edits.

Forgive the dumb question...What exactly is 'hysteresis'?  And you're basically saying go with leafspring type pushbuttons for the flippers?

Sorry for the undefined technical jargon.

Here is a pic that illustrates hysteresis as it relates to button presses.



I recommend using either Ultimarc Goldleaf or GGG Class-X with True-Leaf Pro over any microswitch button for flippers.

So you're saying only need 1 pushbutton on each side (for flippers)?  What about tilt, etc..?

Depends on what you want.

1 button each side (1 flipper) -- Covers most tables (~95%), but does not allow nudging.

2 buttons each side (1 flipper, 1 nudge) -- Covers most tables, allows nudging.

3 buttons each side (2 flippers, 1 nudge) -- The second flipper button adds support for the tables that use Upper Flippers or MagnaSave -- maybe 5% of all tables including titles like Family Guy, Black Knight, Nip-It (seen on Happy Days), and Defender.

This does not include the ball launch button and up nudge on the front.


Scott

[tma]

Just a bit of an update on my 2nd CP.
A few questions about the pinball front nudge toward the end.
Youtube Vid:
http://youtu.be/tCH4A1b0NSk?list=UUs7hGwgsoyZwSPhXdjLvt3w
t

[PL1]

That CP overhang will definitely make the Up Nudge and Ball Launch buttons more tricky.   

You might be able to use the wingnut post and two other posts as guides for a sliding extender bar.

Depending on the weight and friction of the extender bar, you may need to add springs for the extender.

The other possible issue visible in the video is the depth of the CP box compared to rotary joysticks.

*** Check to be sure that you have at least 4-3/4" clearance under the panel for the sticks. ***

Is there enough room for the rotary sticks?



Scott

[tma]

That CP overhang will definitely make the Up Nudge and Ball Launch buttons more tricky.   

You might be able to use the wingnut post and two other posts as guides for a sliding extender bar.

Depending on the weight and friction of the extender bar, you may need to add springs for the extender.

The other possible issue visible in the video is the depth of the CP box compared to rotary joysticks.

*** Check to be sure that you have at least 4-3/4" clearance under the panel for the sticks. ***

Is there enough room for the rotary sticks?


Scott

Hey Scott, thanks for the reply.
I have a bin full of switches, momentary and on the larger scale which I may try.  Maybe something like you said or a bumper style, just on the parallel part of the front of the cp.  I had a previous project that was similar so hopefully come up with something

The depth of the cp box for the rotary sticks is close for where I want to place them(probably 4.5"-4.75" tight).  If I have to, I can take a paddle bit and take some more wood beneath the rotary mech/wires/harness.
The CP box is also tappered, but I don't want to place them way up close to the monitor.  I really like the placement of my Super's on my CP #1...Like to get as near as I can to that position.  BTW, does the wiring harness on the bottom of the mech rotaries rotate or stay put?

One other thing on the pedals... thinking of making my own, possibly out of aluminum (just brake and accel for now).  Pots in the pedal area are placed back to back.  Should I just use one axis or two (I can do 2, X and Y of the other analog stick).  Wondering if you had any thoughts, advice on this.

t

[PL1]

The depth of the cp box for the rotary sticks is close for where I want to place them(probably 4.5"-4.75" tight).  If I have to, I can take a paddle bit and take some more wood beneath the rotary mech/wires/harness.
The CP box is also tappered, but I don't want to place them way up close to the monitor.  I really like the placement of my Super's on my CP #1...Like to get as near as I can to that position. 

The rotary sticks are built on the same base as the Supers.

4.5" from the bottom of CP to the box is a pretty tight fit even after you bend the wires to the side, but you can probably get that to work.

BTW, does the wiring harness on the bottom of the mech rotaries rotate or stay put?

The rotary switch shaft is mounted on the bottom of the joystick shaft and the switch moves with it as the stick is moved U/D/L/R, just like the actuator on the Super does.

The loop arm (96-1011-00) that sticks out from the switch stops the switch body from turning because the loop is around the post (95-2507-00) that is screwed to the side of the joystick body.



You can see the black loop and white post (right center) in this Happ optical rotary joystick pic -- same loop and post as the mechanical version.

One other thing on the pedals... thinking of making my own, possibly out of aluminum (just brake and accel for now).  Pots in the pedal area are placed back to back.  Should I just use one axis or two (I can do 2, X and Y of the other analog stick).  Wondering if you had any thoughts, advice on this.

BadMouth is the expert on driving cab configuration, so I'll defer to his judgement on which configuration is better. (Be sure to visit the Driving & Racing forum.)

If you want to be able to switch between single and dual axis configuration, check out this post for a 4-pole switching circuit that should allow you to do that.

You may also want to avoid using the Z-axis for a pedal to avoid constant scrolling in some front-end menus.   


Scott