Newer ATI card support?

[lodoss118]

Hi guys I am wondering if it is possible to use the newer ATI cards 5xxx , if so how?

[Calamity]

Yes, but only with Linux (GroovyArcade).

[Dalba]

What is the reason hd5xxx card can't be supported under W7  ?  Is it a driver problem ? An hardware incompability ? Just to be curious.... 
It would be so great for an arcade cab to be able to use a dx11 card on W7 ! It would allow perfect mame stuff with groovymame and really good naomi and atomiswawe emulation with latest Demul...

[Calamity]

What is the reason hd5xxx card can't be supported under W7  ?  Is it a driver problem ? An hardware incompability ? Just to be curious.... 

It is a driver problem. The cards are perfectly fine, as their use in Linux prooves. But the driver implementation starting from HD 5xxx is different, maybe because of the new detection scheme they use.

[Rochabian]

Hi Calamity

I use now an HD4890 with your driver and it works really great, thanks for this, but.....

Like Dalba, i want to use a HD5770 fo my cab. It can output 15khz pretty well as you say. I was able to output four 15khz modes by doing an EDID Override, but it can only handle 4 modes (it's an EDID limit), quite few for a perfect mame emulation.
I don't know why it works with override and not with non edid mode. I've looked at your driver and the ultimarc one (as the ArcadeVGA5000 is an HD5450) and i've tried some DAL_RULE registry tweaks without success
I'm able to display all modes availables in EDID mode but when i select them, timings are not good & unsync, even i'm on a multisync NEC XM29plus , only the 4 resolutions that are in the EDID override displays well
I've tried :
DALRULE_DISABLESIZEADJUSTMENT
DALRULE_ALLOWLOWRESAT60FORDDCCRT
DALRULE_CUSTOMODSUPPORT
DALRULE_ANALOGDDCDISPLAYSUPPORTALLREFRESHRATE
DALRULE_DISPLAYSRESTRICTMODES
DALRULE_CRTSUPPORTSALLMODES
but no one seems to do the job

I've seen in atikmdag.sys that the is a lot of DALRULE command but i don't have found the good one
Is it because the HD5770 has a DUALDVI and no VGA output id doesn't work?
Is there specific DALRULE or other specific registry tweaks to allow all modes for DVI?
Can be the EDID emulated to allow more than 4 detailed timing?
Should the bios be tweaked or atimkdag patched for those newer cards?
I don't know about ArcadeVGA5000 BIOS but i think the atimkdag.sys driver is patched

Any new about those cards?
Do you someone working on this?

Many thanks!


EDIT:BTW is it only a W7 problem, does it works win W8?

[Rochabian]

After few tests i think the CCC EDID fonction doesn't work properly
I explain :
When in EDID mode ticked in CCC, i can only choose resolutions above 480p
When i untick EDID mode, i can see all modes but when i choose one, it's scaled on the nearest resolution found in EDID

Can we tell the driver to do not use this F*****G EDID at all??

[Calamity]

Hi Rochabian,

Nice to see someone else fighting with the drivers, not very common these days. Obviously we all want to use HD 5xxx, HD 6xxx and newer cards, and the fact we're not doing it already is that it is not possible with current techniques. Using EDID overrides is not going to help because apart from the few timings you can use the problem is the drivers won't accept all what we'd like in there (low resolutions, etc.) and even more important, the timings you put in there are read-only, and what we need is to obtain custom timings on demand as we emulate games.

This started to happen with HD 5xxx cards. Interestingly you can use the same driver binary with an HD 4xxx card and it will work fine. So it looks like a different path is taken inside the driver for newer models that bypasses our custom timings. It might be possible to patch the drivers to revert this situation, but it might simply not work. Of course if I knew how to do this it would be done already. It's not a problem of DVI or VGA outputs, it's general.

A different approach would be to insert the modes inside the driver's binary, as default modes. But again, this would make the modes read-only, which is not interesting at all.

Maybe a magic combination of registry keys would make it happen, but I hightly doubt it because I've tried dozens of combinations without success.

[Rochabian]

Thanks for you explanation,

Your driver is installing just fine on my HD5000 but it doesn't work as you said (whenever the registry are the same than the HD4000 driver, evergreen )

I don't know what are the BD registry entry , and BD value on the HD5000 (there is a dozen of them, perhaps they are resolutions)

For me BIOS doesn't need to be edited as it works on linux

I'll try to modify Ultimarc AVGA driver to use on my HD5570 to see what's the difference with regular drivers

I don't know the difference between DALR6_CRT, DALDTMDFPBCD, DALDTMCRTPBCD modelines entry

It should work because Ultimarc have done this an he's able to modify modelines after driver installation with his tool "tridef.exe"

I'll try some registry combination too to see if i can do something with it and i'll try with powerstrip too but for now powerstrip doesn't handle it better...

[Rochabian]

As expected by Calamity, no sign of DALR6_CT, or DALTMCRTBD or any modelines in the registry with ArcadeVGA 5000
So they are hardcoded

Modelines seems to be stored in the atikmdag.sys ,in hexa, as this is the only modified system file in the ArcadeVGA driver

How can we convert a modeline into hexa to search in the file where they are stored

Any idea about this?

ToastyX, the guy who has done the EDID Override tool CRU has done an atikmdag.sys patcher to disable pixel clock limits, perhaps he knows something about the atikmdag.sys file structure....


Thanks, i'll continue my research

[Calamity]

Hi Rochabian,

As I said, adding modelines into the driver's .sys is not a desirable option. Even if we figured out the format, that would lead to a read-only setup. I think that a correct approach would involve, either:

1.- Restore the functionality of the DALDTMCRTBCD keys for the newer chipsets, or
2.- Port the existing mode setting functionality from the Linux open source driver to a custom Windows .sys driver overrider (a la Powerstrip).

Both methods are hard in their own way.

[ID4]

2.- Port the existing mode setting functionality from the Linux open source driver to a custom Windows .sys driver overrider (a la Powerstrip)

Hi!

This is the best option for future, It will let us to say good bye to the windows drivers's limits, If not we be always with such limitations.

[Rochabian]

I've contacted AMD about the problem of low-res for HD5000 and up series

As expected, i doesn't had an explicit answer from AMD, saying low-res are just not supported by new cards

But they have told me that ALL FirePro have a custom timing feature on XP Vista & Seven, using the AMD Custom Timing Tool.

I don't have a FirePro to test how this works but if someone is interested you can grab it here :

http://cdn.sapphirepgs.com/drivers/A...ing%20Tool.rar

Do you think it uses another registry method or can we use modified FirePro Drivers to allow custom timings ?

PDF included says that the custom timing tool doesn't use EDID at all so perhaps we can do something with it

Perhaps the FirePro drivers use the old registry method with DALTMCRBCD and can be hacked to use with regular cards, or perhaps this tool uses another method to allow custom res

If someone can modify this tool to be used with regular card ( as if it doesn't find workstation card it doesn't run) or if someone with a FirePro can seek the registry to see what this program does

I have an HD5770, perhaps i can do a FirePro softmod to test....

[Calamity]

Yeah I was investigating the AMD custom timing tool long ago, I indeed patched it so it could apply custom resolutions to all ATI cards, not only Firepros. I must keep it somewhere. It's not worth for our purposes however. This program uses the "modern" custom timings API structure (ADL ModeTimingOverride). The nice feature is that the new modes are ready without needing to restart. The bad thing is it won't support low resolutions, it does some range checking and leaves out all the interesting stuff. It's also said to recalculate the modelines internally. So it's not what we want.

[Rochabian]

OK so i'll try to use it with FirePro drivers to see if low resolutions are supported (apparently FirePro drivers doesn't have the low-res limit)
A guy has already modded the drivers to use with regular cards, i'll try them or make my own softmod to test

So you said there is new registry key with this tool to add modelines???

Can we combine those registry key with

DALRULE_DISABLESIZEADJUSTMENT
DALRULE_ALLOWLOWRESAT60FORDDCCRT
DALRULE_CUSTOMODSUPPORT
DALRULE_ANALOGDDCDISPLAYSUPPORTALLREFRESHRATE
DALRULE_DISPLAYSRESTRICTMODES
DALRULE_CRTSUPPORTSALLMODES

I think you've already tested that but i'll try with FirePro drivers

[Rochabian]

http://www.overclock.net/t/1403233/amd-firepro-modded-drivers-13-152-4-whql-for-radeon-cards-11-22-2013

This is the modded FirePro driver for regular Ati cards

I'll try that first

[Calamity]

(apparently FirePro drivers doesn't have the low-res limit)

Any evidence of this?

[Rochabian]

In fact no evidence at all 

It's just that the tech from AMD told me to get a FirePro Worksation card  if i wanted such features, or request this feature (low res custom timing) via AMD report (done that)

But as the problem is driver related, perhaps he's right

[Rochabian]

No chance those drivers doesn't work, i need to change my Hardware ID in the bios to fit a Firepro V5800 (68A9) but RBE is not up to date and don't allow this.

No softmod for my HD5770 seems to work either

Does someone have a FirePro to test???

Is it hard to patch drivers to works on HD series?

[Rochabian]

I've found a FirePro modded driver that works but it doesn't seems to be very different from desktop one and AMD custom timing tool doesn't work

And low res are not supported  excepts in EDID mode, it scales/stretch to the nearest resolution known, as desktop driver does....False hope..

BTW, i'm interested in you patched AMD Custom Timing tool to do some tests, if you find it, can you share it?

Thanks

[Rochabian]

After a long discussion with AMD Support, i can say that FirePro Drivers allow low res custom resolution, so there is really a difference between FirePro and regular driver that allow low-res modes.

So perhaps a patch or hack can be made to allow low-res with regular catalyst on HD5000 and up

Here is the final answer from the AMD tech :

"Dear Fabien;

I do not have a monitor that supports 320x240 , but I tested the custom timing in the AMD Catalyst Control Center and I was able to add it without any issue.

I also asked one of my colleagues and he confirmed that it should work as long as the display in use support the resolution that you intend to use.

Thank you
Ali Danane "


I've asked SailorSat on the soft15khz forum too , and she says it's interesting and she will have a look into this when she got time (but seems very busy ATM)

[Paradise]

Interesting cause the V3900 and V4900 are cheap.
They are based on:
FirePro V3900 > HD 6570
FirePro V4900 > HD 6670

[Calamity]

Hi Rochabian, and sorry for my late answer. Thanks a lot for sharing that information from the AMD folks.

After a long discussion with AMD Support, i can say that FirePro Drivers allow low res custom resolution, so there is really a difference between FirePro and regular driver that allow low-res modes.

I am very very skeptical about this, Rochabian. The fact that the custom tool allows a low resolution (say 320x240) doesn't mean it's not recooking it in some way, likely simply using doublescan. Just to clarify, HD 5xxx & 6xxx cards do allow low resolutions, the problem is our timings are ignored and replaced by whatever the drivers feel good (31 kHz). I'd say there's no fundamental difference between the FirePros and the normal "gaming" cards, neither from hardware or software point of view. They're probably for the most part overpriced versions of their gaming counterparts, so they can be sold as professional cards to CAD users, which by the way are the less probable ones to be interested in low resolution support.

[Rochabian]

You surely right but how do you explain the fact that custom resolutions are allowed with firepro driver and can't be added with the same tool with regular driver ?

ToastyX, author or CRU Utility, as told me the same thing, he thinks regular cards are able to do lowres and it has nothing to do with Firepro drivers.
He told me we just need to have the good tool, and that he will look into this when he had time..

I just have bought a R9 290X and it do low res too. I'm able to display 256X240 @60 on a Nec XM29+ Multisync CRT
But i am limited to 4 low resolutions using EDID override, as it was for my HD5770 before.

So from HD5000  to the latest card, R9 290X, the problem is the same, the driver don't allow low res custom mode, but you can bypass this with an EDID override, with only 4 low res modes allowed

I'm waiting for ToastyX or SailorSat point of view to see what is possible or not

Thanks

[cools]

I'm using a card that works perfectly already and not caring about the other stuff that doesn't work, 50000 games is plenty.

[Calamity]

You surely right but how do you explain the fact that custom resolutions are allowed with firepro driver and can't be added with the same tool with regular driver ?

I have no explanation for that. Maybe the underlying dll (atiadlxx.dll) is checking if you actually have a Firepro and otherwhise it filters out the modes.

In case you want to play with it, I've found my modded version of the AMDCustomTimingTool for you, that works with any ATI card.

I've checked again, and it indeed has a lower limit of 640 x 480 and a certain dotclock too (so maybe 640 x 480 @ 60 Hz itself doesn't work but 640 x 480 @ 75 Hz does, and 640 x 512 @ 60 Hz does too).

[Rochabian]

I'm using a card that works perfectly already and not caring about the other stuff that doesn't work, 50000 games is plenty.

I don't understand why you answer like that, just saying  "i don't care if it doesn't work for you, for me it's working"
It's not in accordance with your signature, my friend......
I have a HD4890 and it works for me too, i just want to try to use new cards with switchres to have perfect resolution in MAME, as HD4000 will not live forever...
If it works for you, that's good but don't answer like that because your sentence can fit in every topic in this forum without adding any value

Cheers

You surely right but how do you explain the fact that custom resolutions are allowed with firepro driver and can't be added with the same tool with regular driver ?

I have no explanation for that. Maybe the underlying dll (atiadlxx.dll) is checking if you actually have a Firepro and otherwhise it filters out the modes.

In case you want to play with it, I've found my modded version of the AMDCustomTimingTool for you, that works with any ATI card.

I've checked again, and it indeed has a lower limit of 640 x 480 and a certain dotclock too (so maybe 640 x 480 @ 60 Hz itself doesn't work but 640 x 480 @ 75 Hz does, and 640 x 512 @ 60 Hz does too).

It doesn't work for me, it just doesn't launch on Win7 X64 with a R9 290X
Mine Works but says "can't add resolution"

[Calamity]

Both exes work here, Windows 8.1, AMD R9 270, same problem though.

Please Rochabian, don't be so susceptible, Cool's comment wasn't meant to disregard your research but to express he's happy enough with the available solution. Think that this is the internet and if we focused on finding offensive meanings to other people's posts we'd never end. Example:

I'm waiting for ToastyX or SailorSat point of view to see what is possible or not

 

[Rochabian]

OK Mea Cupla 

BTW, my reply doesn't mean you don't care or don't answer, but simply that i've contacted some other people involved on this problem  and that i'm waiting for their answer too.

It's difficult sometime to accurately transcribe what there is in our mind by writing so that everyone understands, that's why there could be some misunderstanding......

Sorry if i have offended someone here.

We surely better return to the main theme of this topic wich is "how can we use newer ati card with custom timing mode" ?

Any idea ? 

[Dalba]

I don't have skills in programmation to help you, but how does it come that hd5000 work with linux ? does the driver "attack" the hardware in a different way than it does in windows ?

[Calamity]

I don't have skills in programmation to help you, but how does it come that hd5000 work with linux ? does the driver "attack" the hardware in a different way than it does in windows ?

All these cards can output custom video natively. It's actually the Windows drivers blocking it for newer hardware, at at least preventing us to use it in a proper unmanaged way. Linux drivers just don't make differences between older and newer hardware.

[Sledge]

If there was a 'good looking' (like hyperspin) frontend for linux, i'd make the switch....