What about a wiki?

[Monkee]

Hi guys, every time I'm not checking this forum for some weeks and then come back, I discover plenty of interesting discussions but I have to admit that it's quite tricky to search in each and every posts to get infos and it starts to be confusing when it comes to the "right" configuration of the thing if you're new to it (different modelines system between Win7 and XP, new infos about the soundcard latency, the modified triplebuffer implementation of GM, Ddraw Vs DirectX, etc...).

And I see a lot of you guys answering always the same questions to the new (and clearly lost) users.

So then I though, why not opening a wiki where we could merge all the most important up-to-date infos all together?
I'm sure I'm not the first one to think about it and it's probably not that easy to implement but I'm also pretty sure it would be a lot of help for newcomers and be a good way to all know/see where we are now and what's left to do / think about so we could all contribute in a much better "synchronisation".

[EssexMame]

Great idea. Something like this? http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/Main_Page

[Monkee]

Oops sorry, sorry didn't see it.
It seems though that the BYOAC wiki has nothing concerning GM and the emudrivers.

I'd be happy to start writing about it.

Is anyone interested to contribute too?

[Monkee]

NB: You have to ask here to be able to edit the wiki.

[Calamity]

You need to ask for specific permission to edit the wiki: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,136208.0.html

BTW we have a wiki in the google code site, we can give you access there (this goes for anyone).

[Monkee]

Oops I just realized that too and changed my post Calamity!

Will you help/correct me if I make mistakes on the GM and emudrivers parts? 
I will try to add as much infos as I can pretty soon.

P.S.: Maybe I can write (copy-paste) on both if it seems better to you.

[Calamity]

Will you help/correct me if I make mistakes on the GM and emudrivers parts? 

Sure

[Monkee]

Thank you Calamity. 
Can you give me access to the google code page wiki please?

[Calamity]

Thank you Calamity. 
Can you give me access to the google code page wiki please?

I've modified the wiki permissions so it can be edited by non-members, try it and let me know if it works.

[Monkee]

Thank you Calamity. I did a test page and it works.

[cools]

I'm currently trawling Calamity's posts looking for something, so I'll link in interesting bits here for you to steal

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,137449.msg1419344.html#msg1419344
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,137449.msg1419702.html#msg1419702
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,137326.msg1416907.html#msg1416907

[cools]

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,137168.msg1415054.html#msg1415054

[cools]

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,136241.msg1408529.html#msg1408529

[Monkee]

Thank you so much cools, that's a great help!
I'm gonna add that plus some notes I took from threads or MPs pretty soon. I couldn't do it yet but I'm clearly not forgeting about it!

[Monkee]

Ok it's finally done! I've compiled all the informations I've got/understand on GroovyMAME (plus the ones you gave me cools  ) and they are now all there.

I know that the formatting sucks and that it's most likely incomplete (that's why I didn't copy them on the BYOAC Wiki yet) but I think it's a not-so-bad start and I hope some will join to make it better.

I have some questions now though:
- I remember that Calamity said not to use a SSD because the high number of modelines made Windows too slow at start but is it also the case if we use magic/super resolutions?
- May someone give a good all-around ResIList.txt for the Magic Modelines scenario?
- Does anyone know if we can use ToastyX's Custom Resolution Utility to set the needed resolutions for GM to pick them up in the case of a 31Khz monitor and a brand-new GPU (instead of Powerstrip which is outdated)? It could be the perfect solution for someone wanting to play all-generations games on a single PC/monitor!

P.S.: Really sorry for the formatting, I have some troubles understanding the wiki syntax and it's definitely ugly. 

[adder]

many thanks monkee i look forward to reading through it all shortly

[cools]

regarding SSD Calamity said there wasnt much point due to the boot speed of Windows 7 being affected heavily by the large number of modelines. Personally on a decent spec machine I have no problem with the extra 6-7 seconds. But using super resolutions (magic dont work on Win 7) its worth it. I wouldnt just note that Win 7 takes longer to boot the more resolutions you have in the registry

CRU is no good. It will let you create (a few) resolutions, but new ones require a reboot.

[Monkee]

Thanks for your answers Cools.

regarding SSD Calamity said there wasnt much point due to the boot speed of Windows 7 being affected heavily by the large number of modelines. Personally on a decent spec machine I have no problem with the extra 6-7 seconds. But using super resolutions (magic dont work on Win 7) its worth it. I wouldnt just note that Win 7 takes longer to boot the more resolutions you have in the registry

That's what I was remembering too but it was before Calamity said that we should use Super/Magic resolutions so I'm wondering if in this case (because then we don't need that much of modelines) we will still have the extra seconds at launch or not?

CRU is no good. It will let you create (a few) resolutions, but new ones require a reboot.

But then in the case of a 31Khz monitor, we just need 3 custom resolutions: 2560x480@60, 2560x512@60 and 2560x576@60 (am I wrong on that?) + the "normal" ones so it should be no problem to setup those 3 and then play whatever, no?

[cools]

You get the extra seconds if you are using lots of resolutions on Win 7. Magic resolutions do not work on Win 7. Super resolutions do and you don't require many of them.

You won't get 576p out of a 31k monitor unless I'm much mistaken. But good point about only needing a couple of resolutions. That's precisely what I was aiming for when I accidentally discovered I was using a super resolution to begin with (with fake scanlines of course). I believe that the problem with not using CRT_Emudriver however is that GM can't alter the refresh rate on the fly, so you're stuck running everything at exactly the refresh rates you've set up already.

[Monkee]

You get the extra seconds if you are using lots of resolutions on Win 7. Magic resolutions do not work on Win 7. Super resolutions do and you don't require many of them.

Great, that's what I was wondering about so Magic (for XP only) and Super resolutions are SSD friendly, I will add it to the wiki later. 

You won't get 576p out of a 31k monitor unless I'm much mistaken. But good point about only needing a couple of resolutions. That's precisely what I was aiming for when I accidentally discovered I was using a super resolution to begin with (with fake scanlines of course). I believe that the problem with not using CRT_Emudriver however is that GM can't alter the refresh rate on the fly, so you're stuck running everything at exactly the refresh rates you've set up already.

I think 31khz CRT PC monitors are really versatile and for quite some of them you can even go up to 1080p.
So if we think about the future (or about a non dedicated pc), CRT_emudriver is out because the required cards are old ones and Powerstrip is kind of out too because it will not support the latest cards due to it's abandoned state.
CRU seems to be our only long term (or new hardware oriented) chance...
Did Calamity had a chance (and interest) to talk with ToastyX (the guy behind CRU)?
He seems to still be very active on his software and in CRT so maybe he can implement an interaction with GM for the refresh rates? 

[cools]

Specify SVGA+ then

[cools]

Also the way CRU works is what  we've been doing with custom EDID. Its not magic, and would still require hacked drivers or Windows to allow live switching. It doesn't work with Intel drivers at all.

[Monkee]

Specify SVGA+ then

True. 

Also the way CRU works is what  we've been doing with custom EDID. Its not magic, and would still require hacked drivers or Windows to allow live switching. It doesn't work with Intel drivers at all.

Ah ok, I have to admit I saw quickly that you were working on EDID but having no clue about this, I didn't make the link. 
So then for my understanding, how come Powerstrip succeeded in giving live switching orders to Windows for "non ATI 4xxx" cards? Only through the creation of the right ini for each game?
Then maybe the solution would be to open a collective ini database in order to cover most or all games and link it to the custom EDID? Am I far wrong? 

[Calamity]

Hi Monkee, thanks a lot for the wiki, it will make life easier for newcomers. I've seen some stuff in there that needs being modified, clarified or restructured, I'll be editing it at some point.

Then maybe the solution would be to open a collective ini database in order to cover most or all games and link it to the custom EDID? Am I not far wrong or completely?

It sounds like you don't have a clear picture of the whole dimension of the video issue. Nevermind. The challenge is not being able to switch resolutions, or to know which resolutions to switch to. The problem is that you need literally dozens of different refresh rates. So many that you can't store them all simultaneously, so that you need to actually be able to create new timings on demand & on the fly. Methods based on EDID overrides are interesting but will never do the job because they're limited to a few static modes.

As a note: RA guys will tell you that using super wide resolutions circumvents the whole mode switching issue. When they're faced with the fact that you need different refresh rates, they'll tell you to manually create an ini for the specific refresh, transporting you to the past decade. If you dare to complain about the huge amount of such "special" cases that need to be covered then all they'll say is people who cares about these things are autistic.

Creating new timings on the fly is possible by interfacing with the Powerstrip API. Or through the ATI registry method used by GM. ATI & Nvidia have their own APIs for adding custom resolutions but they lack the flexibility of the old ATI registry method.

New cards make things even more difficult by refusing to work with non-DDC (arcade) monitors, and by their lame detection schemes. Probably in part due to the new hot plug requirements imposed by Vista/7. Blame the average powerpointist who couldn't get the extended desktop working with the projector.

[Monkee]

Thanks Calamity, it's true that I was a bit lost with all this refresh rate thing.
Now I understand it right. 

So then CRT_emudriver is the only viable way to go if we want custom refresh rate on the fly for the moment.
Any idea/project/hope for a long term solution? 

[cools]

Open source drivers.

[Calamity]

So then CRT_emudriver is the only viable way to go if we want custom refresh rate on the fly for the moment.
Any idea/project/hope for a long term solution? 

Monkee, in the long run we are all dead.

[Monkee]

Monkee, in the long run we are all dead.

[Dr.Venom]

Hi Monkee,

Cheers for the work done with the documentation.

I haven't read through all of it, but in case it's not already in there the following may be worthwhile to add.

On Windows 7 GroovyMAME needs to run in elevated / administrator mode to be able to dynamically change modelines. The problem is that the UAC prompt then everytime comes up when you start groovymame, which is a bit of chore.

In the following post there's a tip on how to get GroovyMAME not to come up with the UAC prompt in W7 everytime you start it in elevated mode, basicly mimicking Windows XP behaviour in that regard. See step 1 and 2 here:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,129025.msg1323316.html#msg1323316

[Monkee]

Thanks Dr.Venom, I'm happy to see the big guys helping out for this wiki! 

I've added your fix to the "Tuto CRT_EmuDriver for Windows 7" page. 

[bulbousbeard]

Thanks Calamity, it's true that I was a bit lost with all this refresh rate thing.
Now I understand it right. 

So then CRT_emudriver is the only viable way to go if we want custom refresh rate on the fly for the moment.
Any idea/project/hope for a long term solution? 

The long term solution is new display technology that doesn't suck balls. Let's face it: every display technology sucks right now. CRTs suck for many reasons. You'll always have to eat some vertical overscan or underscan if you're running games at different resolutions without doing manual adjustments for each game. It's crap for a multi-game setup. They're too big, heavy, dangerous, and you can't get a CRT over 1080p, which really isn't good enough. LCDs suck too. They have motion blur, slow response times, and you have to make a tradeoff between image quality and viewing angles. Essentially, everything sucks right now.

I'm sure we'll finally get a GOOD display technology within the next 15 to 20 years. There will be some flat display technology that doesn't have motion blur or input lag. All the activity in virtual reality technology with low persistence displays will probably make this happen a little faster. Variable refresh is basically already done. G-Sync works, and Adaptive Sync will be in every monitor eventually. Now that we have variable refresh technology, 4k monitors, and pixel shaders, I'm not that concerned about display appearance or refresh rates. The real remaining problems are motion blur and input lag.

I don't believe there's any long term future in CRTs for multi-game emulation cabinets, personally. You're just fighting against too much inertia. 15khz displays especially are problematic. There's just something ---smurfy--- and unprofessional about seeing the display switch resolutions when you launch every game. When you run at a fixed resolution, all the transitions from front end to game are seamless, and it just looks really slick and professional. Here's hoping we finally get some good display technology soon.

[sean_sk]

So then CRT_emudriver is the only viable way to go if we want custom refresh rate on the fly for the moment.
Any idea/project/hope for a long term solution? 

Monkee, in the long run we are all dead.

Not me! I've stocked up on CRT monitors and all the necessary hardware to keep me going for when the apocalypse comes!

[Monkee]

You're probably right bulbousbeard even though I would have no problem playing on HD CRT until the end but the fact is that they are not manufactured anymore so we can only play on used ones which gently loose their colors and geometry (and die).

So yes future is with new technologies and 4K-Oled-freesync seems to be a good plan.

What I don't get though is why black frame insertion is not THE big thing manufacturers are working on?
And I mean not just hacks like what exist today but a really plug-and-play implementation which can work at any refresh rate!

If (and it's the case) motion blur and input lag are the two worst things for gamers (actual or retro) so then this technology is exactly the solution to the biggest issue with flat screen!