OT: Getting started into programming/other...

[Agent Davis]

Hey guys.  I've always been interested in technology and computers and such, as are most people in this hobby.  At school I'm a Political Science and Criminology major and it just isn't possible for me to change my major to CIS (Computer Information Systems) due to time left here and other factors.

However, I'm interested in learning about programming and other areas of computer technology.  What is a good way for me to get started into this sort of thing, other than the traditional means of majoring in it in college?  I'm especially interested in areas like computer security and stuff like that, but also programming in general.

I'm just looking for a little direction but I have no idea where to start and I was hoping someone here could give me some ideas.  Thanks guys.

[Howard_Casto]

If your interested in computers in general then CIS might not be an appropriate fieild to study.  I'm majoring in cis right now, and I'm thinking of going back to get another degree in IT (information technologly) simply because a cis degree is 65% business and only 35% computer-related courses.  

As for stuff to get into... there's some classes you must take....

Any form of basic or visual basic should be taken first for a nice entry level programming course.  After that I would recommend c++  For general computing knowledge you need to take a networking class, and operating systems class, and your favorite type of database class.  Everything else is just fluff, those are the classes you truely need and want.  

[Lilwolf]

I would say go into java instead of basic... Why?  Much better language.  Yeah!  VBasic sucks!  nobody in their right mind uses it..

yeah...just got back from a party and a little drunk... Startin' fights and <censored>

All languages are 90% the same.  Symantics are the only differences.  Some have better tools or better libraries that come with it to make things easier.   But as a programmer, the languages don't make any difference.

Consider java (really) because the tools are free (1) and it's a great language.  It's a real object oriented language (not like anything microsoft has ever come out with) but not a completely 100% OOL like small talk (that has it's own problems, like ever errror is a runtime error since an object is an object, and you dont' know until runtime if the object can do what you want).  Java has both worlds, that you can deal with an object as a random object and do stuff, but the compiler will catch as many bugs as it can.

But mainly because its free

[Lilwolf]

One more thing.  The best development platform for java (thats free) is jbuilder.  You don't need the J2EE version (enteprise version) but the free one has all but the easy borland database (but has the java database stuff) and the Enterprise java stuff.

Great IDE

[ArcadeFX]

I have a BS is CIS. I had to take COBOL, VB, C, C++. It was about 75 percent programming.   I would concur with Lilwolf.  Start with JAVA righ away if you can.   VB suck.  Once you get conformatable with JAVA everything else will be pretty easy.  

[RacerX]

...I would concur with Lilwolf.

[AlmtyBob]

I'm going to out on a limb here and disagree with everyone.  Starting with standard C, not C++ is the way to go if you've never had ANY programming experience.  Learning an Object Oriented Language is not a good idea at entry level, simply many explanations on how stuff works are left out until much later.  For example, I could explain every single little aspect of how the 'Hello World" program operates in C in a short while, however, to explain the "Hello World" program in full in Java would take about 6 chapters.  It is much easier to follow the more "linear" structure of a non OOL.  It may sound silly, but your best bet for a newbie would be "C for Dummies" volumes 1 + 2.  When you are through with that it would be a good idea to read either a small book on C++ or OOP in general, or skip right ahead to a beginner Java book.

As for computer security, installing Linux on a cheap/spare PC would be a great way to learn.  By the time you've installed it and patched and tweaked everything, you'll have a pretty strong foundation  

[Howard_Casto]

Sorry guys but basic is THE language to start out with.  Why?  Simple basic/visual basic syntax is easy to understand, while java, c++, ect is not.  You can argue all you want but it's the truth.  I've took em all and I'm very glad that my first language was qbasic, because if I would have had to learn structered programming logic AND learned countless lines of non-sensical syntax I wouldn't have made it.

And btw (ok this is where the flame war starts) java is a nice language to play around with, but in the business world it's pretty useless.  Why?  I really don't know, but no-one wants anything coded in java.  C++ is what's gonna get you hired and vb is nice for small in-house programs, but not really for larger projects. You can do anything in c++ and if you learn it's syntax it's pretty close to all the others save basic/vb.    

[Lilwolf]

As for java not being a buisness language... that was the thinking about 5 years ago.  It's hasn't really moved forward (has always been there) but the JVM (the virtual machine java runs in) has.  The JVM's now compile down the machine language before running so it ends up being about 10% slower then c++.

But the cross platform, instant web access, and imbedded support without changing code has made it the fastest growing language in...well... since c++.

As for a good language to learn.  Not having garbage collection and pointers can really help in my mind.  

[Dave Dribin]

If you're just doin' this on the side, pick a good, free language to work with.  I wouldn't shell out a dime for an expensive IDE, for example.  I would start with a scripting language, like Perl, since they tend to shield the programmer from many low-level activities.  You may want to look into Python and Ruby, too, as I hear there have a few less wrinkles than Perl.  Once you get a grasp of some of the basics, you can move up to a more advanced language like Java or C++.  Java is a fantastic language.  I would heartily recommend it.  Many businesses use Java, so it has good value on the resume, too. I don't think its too advanced for beginners, either, as I think many universities teach Java in intro CS classes.  C++ is a little rougher than Java, but the two languages are really very similar.

I would pick a project to work on, too.  Something really simple, though.  Having a goal will keep you motivated.  I don't think you'll learn a lot if you just sit down and start reading Donald Knuth's TAOCP, for example.  That's not to say you should ignore theory altogether.  Having good, sound knowlege of basic data structures is absolutely essential in real-world programming.  TAOCP is the bible of CS, but it's not light reading.

-Dave

[Agent Davis]

Thanks for all the replies guys... you just gave me about 5 different answers.. hehe.

Howard, as for CIS, it differs at different schools.

[Howard_Casto]

Yeah computer information systems and computer information science are two different animals... our university lumps them all together actually.  What strikes me as odd is that their teaching java as an intro course?  I've heard of pascal being taught (another useless language that you'll never need.) but java should never, ever be taught as your first class.  (Sure argue all you want, but I'll put money on this one.)  I'm not saying that it's not do-able, but java is a very intimidating language to learn as a first language.  It could scare away alot of perspecitve majors, because in some effects, java is just plain wierd.  (Although the wierdness has a reason to it.)  

And as for lilwolf saying that java is good for cross-platform stuff, he's right, but the fact of the matter is no-one wants cross platform stuff.  As I orignally said, I have no clue why no one wants java, but they don't.  Remember, m$ is all that matters.  

[RacerX]

...

[Dave Dribin]

I've heard of pascal being taught (another useless language that you'll never need.) but java should never, ever be taught as your first class.  (Sure argue all you want, but I'll put money on this one.)

Pay up, 'cause my Alma Mater teaches Java in their CS Intro class:

http://www.cs.uiuc.edu/education/courses/cs125.html

Yeah, Pascal hasn't been taught since I went to school there.  My Intro to CS was in Scheme and C.  Talk about weird languages, Scheme was pretty weird.

And as for lilwolf saying that java is good for cross-platform stuff, he's right, but the fact of the matter is no-one wants cross platform stuff.  As I orignally said, I have no clue why no one wants java, but they don't.  Remember, m$ is all that matters.  

Dude, I don't kow what they're teaching you, but this is just pure FUD.  Talk to any Fortune 500 company and I guarantee they're using Java on some mission critical component of their business.  Enterprise Java *is* used in the Real World.  Cross-platform isn't a huge deal, but it does have its benefits.  Microsoft may have a monopoly on the end-user desktop market, but Unix is still very alive and kicking in the enterprise server market.  With Java, you can develop on Windows and deploy on Unix.  Or you can develop on Unix and deploy on Windows.  Since Linux has come around, Unix has been gaining momentum in the server market.

-Dave

[Lilwolf]

As for cross platform, its not used for most applications...

but for embedded systems, its getting huge.  Mainly because hardware changes faster then most software... and if you have everything in java, and the next cool little device comes out and you can use it.  Or when a cheaper solution comes out.

And It's growing faster then any other language.  And being used everywhere.  For enterprise solutions... MS still doesn't have one.  They talk about it, but people don't use it.

But all in all... like all languages.. its good for some things.  Usable for most...

As for a learning language.  It's great for learning, especially windows style programming.  Some of the command line stuff it's not really designed for.  (and the hello wold program is only 4 lines of code

public class Fred {
public main (String[] args) {
 System.out.println("Hello world");
}

but it's a stupid example since most code these days doesn't have much to do with console input/output.  But when you have a decent IDE you just have to get good at ignoring all the genated code and only looking at what you changed.

As for the best learning language?  If you want to do it professionally, you should pay your dues.  Take pascal/Fortran or C.  A non-object oriented language.  Then move on to an object oriented language (like C++, SmallTalk, VBasic, ect... lots of great languages... all do the same things with different syntax)...  

btw, my favorite language is still Obj-C.  An object oriented layor on top of C added in all GCC versions.  I used it in NextStep/OpenStep for years.  You could do so much it was cool.  TONS of things were well thought out and done well.  

As for the Dont spend money on an IDE!  Yeah, don't.  There are some GREAT FREE ONES!

For java stuff, just get jbuilder (borlands) or Forte (sun's).  Both great!

For most other languages, look at the linux stuff.  Many of their IDE's have been compiled for windows and are free.

Any others?

[Agent Davis]

What strikes me as odd is that their teaching java as an intro course?

Slight justification here.  I didn't feel like typing out the whole course descriptions so I just typed what they contained.  Yes, it does say java is taught.  But this class is the first programming class you can take so I'm sure most of the class is just easing you into programming, letting you know what its about, etc.. and then giving you an intro into java, that's it.  There is actually more advanced classes that you take as a specialty that are concentrations into all the various languages.  The java taught in 201 is very basic, I'm sure.

That said, I'm sure the CIS department at OSU knows what it's doing.  It is one of the top programs in the nation and requires a 3.2 just to major in.  

The good news is I can take 201 which is an intro class, and I can also take 230 which teaches C++, intro level again basically.  Would you all agree that that would be a good start for me?  Neither of those require me to take any additional maths so it'll be real easy to take them.  I think that taking these would give me a good feel for it to see if its something I would like to do.  I can always be a continuing education student once I graduate.  I'll be an Air Force officer upon graduation, and they'll pretty much pay for any kind of college I want to take.  

[Dave Dribin]

The good news is I can take 201 which is an intro class, and I can also take 230 which teaches C++, intro level again basically.  Would you all agree that that would be a good start for me?

If you've got the free time and credits, yes, go for it!  Take advantage of all classes available to you while your at college.  You'll learn more in a CS class than wasting an elective on bowling, for example.  Sure, bowling is fun, but programming is fun, too.   These classes sound like they are targeted for just your sort: someone who is interested in programming but is not a CS major.  In the worst case, you can drop the class after a few weeks if they're not what you expected.  If you like the classes, who knows, you may switch majors.  I would not be put off by Java.  It's one of the easier languages to learn.  Like you said, OSU is a good school.  I'm sure they know what they are doing and will present the material accordingly.

-Dave

[Dave Dribin]

but for embedded systems, its getting huge.  Mainly because hardware changes faster then most software... and if you have everything in java, and the next cool little device comes out and you can use it.  Or when a cheaper solution comes out.

Yeah, it's pretty amazing just how many Java enabled mobile phones and devices are gonna be in circulation in the upcoming year.  So far there haven't been any "real" J2ME applications written, and it may go the way of WAP.  But like you said, it can make supporting many different platforms very easy.  You won't have to worry about porting from a Motorola to a Nokia to a Blackberry.

I think many embedded apps still use C and even assembly.  Embedded devices cover so many areas these days, it's hard to make many generalizations about embedded programming.

For enterprise solutions... MS still doesn't have one.  They talk about it, but people don't use it.

Yes, .Net is still vapor-ware for the most part.  And C# is basically a rip-off of Java, anyways.

btw, my favorite language is still Obj-C.  An object oriented layor on top of C added in all GCC versions.  I used it in NextStep/OpenStep for years.  You could do so much it was cool.  TONS of things were well thought out and done well.

I've never done any Obj-C coding, but I've always been interested in it.  Does Apple use Obj-C for the Carbon API on Mac OS X?  I know they stole a lot from Next, but I don't know if it was APIs or just ideas.

As for the Dont spend money on an IDE!  Yeah, don't.  There are some GREAT FREE ONES!

Call me old-fashioned, but I'll take a good text editor like Emacs over an IDE any day.  I think that is mostly because I do not do any GUI programming, though.  But to each their own.

-Dave

[)p(]

Very interesting stuff...I am also thinking about learning to program a bit better...what would you all recommend me as a next step...

I have done lots off 6502 assembly programming in the past as a hobby in highschool...when I went to the university I lost interest and since I started Emulaxian I discovered I still love it. The scripting language of Director came very easy to me. Then I played around some bit with VB, Delphi and C. Of those I liked Delphi for the ease and consistency and C because it felt most like the assembly I used to do. I also want to checkout java... I think I have to decide to choose one and stick with it because for me it is just a hobby and I will not have time to get really into more.... So what would you recommend for a serious hobbyist

[Agent Davis]

You'll learn more in a CS class than wasting an elective on bowling, for example.

Yes and no.  I've made up my mind that from here til I graduate I'm going to take a sport elective every quarter.  Next quarter it's softball (I absolutely love softball, and I'm not too shabby) AND Judo.  Just a credit hour each.  I am such a rounded individual that I must stay active.  Staying active is very healthy.  Athletics are a great way to be healthy and be happy.  That said, I get your point...  Future employers probably aren't going to care how much softball I played (unless it's a professional softball team that's employing me, hehe.

Anyway, I'm glad I started this thread... seems to have opened up a lot of good discussion...  

Now if I can only convince the academic counselors that the two computer classes could take the place of two of my crim or poli sci classes, hehe (truthfully though knowledge in computers is every bit as vital in the real world as learning social stratification or the political system in russia, etc...).  I'll probably take the two courses Pass/NonPass since I already am going to have way more than enough electives due to ROTC to graduate.  Thanks for the responses guys.

BTW, Dave... Awesome front-end.  It has the prestigious honor of being the front end of choice for Arcade Command, which will be making its grand appearance FINALLY within the next month.  I've done so much to this cab, it's beautiful.  Can't wait to show it to you guys.

[Lilwolf]

Yeah, it's pretty amazing just how many Java enabled mobile phones and devices are gonna be in circulation in the upcoming year.

[Agent Davis]

Ok guys, this is kind of on a different note.  I have found a major program at OSU that I thought was kind of interesting and wanted to get your thoughts on it.  I'm not bringing this up in comparison to programming but it is an "information systems" major.  I just want your impressions on it because a lot of the descriptions are Greek to me.  Sorry if I'm throwing this topic way too off-topic.  One reason I've been looking heavily into some sort of computer science/ systems programs is because I'd really like to strengthen my academic work a little.  I have high asparations and want to be as competitive as possible.  Obviously if I took this program, I wouldn't be double majoring in poli sci/ crim.  Here it is:

Geography Undergraduate Track in Analytical Cartography & Geographic Information Systems

580 Elements of Cartography
 A study of the cartographic techniques of map compilation and presentation including generalization, symbolization, reproduction, and simple computer mapping with an emphasis on thematic mapping.

680 Numerical Cartography

 An examination of the theory and methods of machine-oriented numerical cartography.

607 Fundamentals of Geographic Information Systems

 Basic principles of geographic and land information systems and their use in spatial analysis and information management.

683 Introduction to Geographic Analysis

 An introduction to data analysis in geography; fundamental methods used in quantitative geographic research.
 
685 Intermediate Geographic Information Systems

 Designed to provide a background in GIS-based spatial analysis approaches and develop an understanding of the operational basis of modern GIS technology.
 Wi Qtr. 2 2-hr cl, 1 3-hr lab. Prereq: 607, or 607 in one of the following depts: C&R Plan, Civil En, Geod Sci, or Nat Res; or permission of instructor.  

687 Design and Implementation of Geographic Information U G 5
 Introduction to the design of geographic information systems (GIS), institutional context of geographic information systems; design; role of data base design; and evaluation of GIS.

CIS 201
CIS 214 (might could get this changed if I wanted to take 230 instead)

Would also have to take Math 150, 151, 152, Stats 245

lemme know what you guys think

[Lilwolf]

No... you can't have your thread back!  It's now officially the whats a better language and I'm still sticking with JAVA!  Nope... its all about languages and the evil evil MS!  Not school related at all.  Go make your own thread

jk

I'm a CS major so I cant help you much.  

[Agent Davis]

152 posts..... freak.....

[u_rebelscum]

Geography Undergraduate Track in Analytical Cartography & Geographic Information Systems

GIS, what I got a BA in.  But to say I majored in "geography" is misleading and, um, makes people think I took an easy major.  (It was easy, but that's besides the point. )  I'll put what the courses seem to be about below, in layman's terms.  And I don't say "GIS system" ("system system") for a reason.

580 Elements of Cartography
 A study of the cartographic techniques of map compilation and presentation including generalization, symbolization, reproduction, and simple computer mapping with an emphasis on thematic mapping.

How to read maps.  And the differences between paper and computer ones.  What is a map.

680 Numerical Cartography

 An examination of the theory and methods of machine-oriented numerical cartography.

How number values are shown on maps and how to read the numbers.

607 Fundamentals of Geographic Information Systems

 Basic principles of geographic and land information systems and their use in spatial analysis and information management.

What is the use of a GIS.

683 Introduction to Geographic Analysis

 An introduction to data analysis in geography; fundamental methods used in quantitative geographic research.

How to use GIS

685 Intermediate Geographic Information Systems

 Designed to provide a background in GIS-ba sed spatial ana lysis approaches and develop an understanding of the operational basis of modern GIS technology.
 Wi Qtr. 2 2-hr cl, 1 3-hr lab. Prereq: 607, or 607 in one of the following depts: C&R Plan, Civil En, Geod Sci, or Nat Res; or permission of instructor.

Actually use GIS

687 Design and Implementation of Geographic Information U G 5
 Introduction to the design of geographic information systems (GIS), institutional context of geographic information systems; design; role of data base design; and evaluation of GIS.

What it takes to design GIS's

CIS 201
CIS 214 (might could get this changed if I wanted to take 230 instead)

Would also have to take Math 150, 151, 152, Stats 245

lemme know what you guys think

GIS is currently thought of as a "small but quickly growing" area.  And poly sci is one spot that actively already uses GIS data.  Re-districting for example.  GIS is less intergrated in Criminology, but used often in it too.  As for GIS jobs, well, I started my current job as a "GIS Specialist", but now I'm mostly doing on-line html manuals [yuck!].  GIS is a good second major, a minor, or even just to know a few courses, for many jobs.  Of course, if you get hired by a college or University GIS department, GIS is a good major by it's self.
Others may have had different views, though.

"Any questions? [Hands rise]  
No?  Class dismissed!"

[Agent Davis]

Yeah, and it may give me the extra edge I need to get into Special Investigations in USAF.  I'm doing a juggling act here.  Do I just stick with Poli Sci and Crim or do I switch a major to GIS and minor in PS, or Crim.  Or Major in PS and minor in GIS.... etc....  Plus, there is AF Intelligence if I don't get OSI.  I really need to find out which one is the best for me.  I *think* what I'm leaning towards is this:

Major in PS, Minor in Crim, Minor in GIS

I've almost got the crim minor as it is.  Hmmm... life is a twisted web.... So many decisions....

From what I'm reading/hearing, it seems like PS is a very respectable degree to many, and considering OSU has one of the top programs, even better.

[SirPoonga]

I disagree with all these people about you should learn java first, you should learn vb first.

Now, you don't want to change ield of study in college, that';s fine.  Programming can be a hobby:)
Then here's what I'd do in your situation.
First, as there are good reasons to first learn one language right away over other.  I learned programming back in the day when I was in 6th grade (hmmm, 12ish years ago).  Basic is a good start, what I learned though back then wasn't VB.  VB is is still siple and really easy to learn and get simple apps up quickly.  BUt VB is not like Java or C++.  There are many different type of langauges out there.  

If you are going to college now and you need an extra couple of credits a semester take a computer science I or II course then.  See if it is possible to take a survey of programming langauses class.  Those show you the different types of programming.  See if you can minor in CS, that's what I did.

now, I just read you said you were looking for courses in you collegefor other majors.  Those are usually the best for general stuff, but teehy are very watered down.  not a bad start though.  What math classes did you need?  up to calculus?  I'm an applied math major, so math comes with the bit:)  Though I haven't used any of it in the real world too much, only up to calculus which most colleges with a CS major only require.

It doesn't matter as much as what language you start out in, it more matters that you under stand the concepts.  Once you know the concepts then it doesn't matter what language you use, then it is just syntax.  Learning the basics is the first thing you need to do, like loops, logic, data structures, the generals that every langauge has.  Once you have that all you need to do is look up the syntax on how to do that in the particular language you need to use.

Oh, if you aren't in college or don't have the credits to waste take anight or summer courses from a tech school once you are out in the "real" world.  Actually, for you a tech school night class over summer might be great, not much for prereqs on those.

Otherwise try to learn on your own, but the one thing you then won't learn is good practices.

So, let me put it this way, a true prgrammer doesn;t care what language it is, it's all pretty mucht eh same, just syntax changes basically.  If you need something done in a certain langauge I can do it, just give me a god reference book to look up syntax.


Oh, don't knock out python as a good starting language.  If you plan on starting on your own, that is a great langauge.

[SirPoonga]

GIS, what I got a BA in.