cheapy 'Zero Delay' USB encoder

[InfantSorrow]

Well, I had a chance to check my own ZD and get some readings.  It seems that the way you had it hooked up originally should have worked.  The large back plane on the pcb is in fact the +5 and not the ground (Odd to say the least). 

EDIT:
Well or at least close to the way you had it hooked up.  i would try just hooking up the pulse wire to the black wire with the mech set to NO and if you want the ground from the usb connector to the ground of your mech, leave the red wire unhooked, it's just +5v.  the black is the one that runs to the chip on the board.  I think that should get it working for you.

Gentlemen... just about to test this.
Drum roll please...

"The defense department regrets to inform you that your sons are dead because they were stupid" Great balls of fire!' Lol

No joy guys. Maybe someone should just gift me an old ipac as an early christmas present lol
Kidding, this just makes me more determined. Is it that hard to make this damn thing sense a freakin pulse!

[pbj]

Why not just shove a mechanical switch underneath wherever a good coin is spit out, and hook that to the encoder?

Other thing I'd try is hooking up your coin mech pulses to a relay, and your encoder to that relay.  That'll completely isolate any ground or voltage differences.

[PL1]

Drum roll please...

+1 to PBJ.


Scott

[BobA]

Sounds like the way to go PBJ.   Too much analysis and conjecture using a live input.   We know the ZD works with a no contact so isolate it with a relay and problems are gone.

[InfantSorrow]

Sounds like the way to go PBJ.   Too much analysis and conjecture using a live input.   We know the ZD works with a no contact so isolate it with a relay and problems are gone.

Pbj. Read my original posting. I said I know I could use a microswitch to be triggered with a coin drop but that wouldnt be the elegant solution lol I will either do that or get an i-pac as a last resort.
But while there is still some life left in these old bones.. lol

Okay Scott and Bob. Walk me through the relay thing.
So I need to get a 5v relay at electronics shop?
How would the wiring work.

[PL1]

Here's the basic wiring.

The snubber diode is there to keep the collapsing magnetic field of the coil (curly part  ) from causing relay chatter -- some relays have this built-in, check the data sheet.

12v relays are common so you probably won't want/need the zener diode.

Haven't looked into the exact parts required for this application, but there are small SPST (shown in diagram) or SPDT relays like this that should do the trick.

Anyone have a known good parts recommendation/link?


Scott
EDIT: Here is a tutorial on relays.   

[InfantSorrow]

Here's the basic wiring.

The snubber diode is there to keep the collapsing magnetic field of the coil (curly part  ) from causing relay chatter -- some relays have this built-in, check the data sheet.

12v relays are common so you probably won't want/need the zener diode.

Haven't looked into the exact parts required for this application, but there are small SPST (shown in diagram) or SPDT relays like this that should do the trick.

Anyone have a known good parts recommendation/link?


Scott
EDIT: Here is a tutorial on relays.   

Turns out I already have these on hand. Got all this at the start of the project when reading up on all this.

I will hook this up now and take a pic.

Thanks Scott

Edit: I have 2 sets of these relays. 2 x big ones (DC5V-N) and 2 x small ones (DC12V-N)
I should use the 12v, correct

Edited Edit (lol) : Your 12v relay has 4 pins.. mine has 5? Maybe I don't have the right component? I did ask for 12v relay though when I bought it

[PL1]

Your 5 pin relay is almost certainly a SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw) -- like a HAPP button microswitch that has COM, NO, and NC terminals instead of a Seimitsu with just COM and NO terminals.



Looks like the terminals on your 12v relay are arranged like this:

 NC     NO

Coil1   Coil2            COM


Scott

[InfantSorrow]

Your 5 pin relay is almost certainly a SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw) -- like a HAPP button microswitch that has COM, NO, and NC terminals instead of a Seimitsu with just COM and NO terminals.




Scott

So, I'm assuming the lonely isolated pin is common and on each side you have clustered NO, NC and positive coil, negative coil?

Once again, thanks Scott and everyone else pitching in here.. i'm learning alot

[PL1]

Yes, tracked down a datasheet while you were posting and added the pinout above.

Check to see if the coil has a + or - marking -- if not marked, it shouldn't matter which side of the coil connects to ground.


Scott

[InfantSorrow]

Yes, tracked down a datasheet while you were posting and added the pinout above.

Check to see if the coil has a + or - marking -- if not marked, it shouldn't matter which side of the coil connects to ground.


Scott

Take a look at pin markings, this is as I understand it.
There is no positive, negative coil indication.

[PL1]

Not sure if the diagram on the relay is a top view or bottom view.

To verify which pair of pins is coil and which is NO and NC, use a multimeter to check for continuity between COM and the pin you think is NC.

If you get <2 ohms, you're on COM and NC.   


Scott

[InfantSorrow]

Not sure if the diagram on the relay is a top view or bottom view.

To verify which pair of pins is coil and which is NO and NC, use a multimeter to check for continuity between COM and the pin you think is NC.

If you get <2 ohms, you're on COM and NC.   


Scott

Well throw me a freakin bone here Scott.. I will test this when I get home
I hope this works, I don't want to have to fiddle around making coin chutes onto microswitches or have to give in and get an i-pac lol

I'm making a stand!

This coin mech pulse problem is proving to be the snake to my mongoose... or, the mongoose to my snake.
Either way, it's bad. I don't know animals.

[PL1]

Of course, you realise that once you get this working, you'll need to provide a summary post with clear diagrams, pics and a parts list for an update to the wiki Coin Doors entry so the next guy doesn't have to go through this again. 


Scott

[InfantSorrow]

Of course, you realise that once you get this working, you'll need to provide a summary post with clear diagrams, pics and a parts list for an update to the wiki Coin Doors entry so the next guy doesn't have to go through this again. 


Scott

lol Of course!  I'm all about community upliftment and helping out my fellow brothers lol

But seriously, you guys took your time to help me and I would do that gladly.
I'm just a newbie, but I like the setup you guys have here. I will be frequenting this place more often you're gona get sick of me lol

[melvinbates]

Good luck with the relay.  Looking at a few datasheets on relays I have, the reaction time of a relay is generally under 10ms.  So any one of the pulse lengths should be able to get it to fire and hold it long enough for the ZD to notice it.

[InfantSorrow]

Good luck with the relay.  Looking at a few datasheets on relays I have, the reaction time of a relay is generally under 10ms.  So any one of the pulse lengths should be able to get it to fire and hold it long enough for the ZD to notice it.

Ok guys. Home now.
Putting on my kiss costume coz im ready to rock & roll lol

So.. before I connect everything up let me get the wiring down.

- Ground wires (usb encoder + coin mech) to be joined to COM on the relay
- Coin mech pulse wire to NO on the relay
- usb signal pin (red wire?) to any coil?

Thanks again
The infant

[pbj]

No.

[InfantSorrow]

No.

well throw me a freakin' bone here peabody

[pbj]

Do your coin mech wires to Coil 1 and 2. 

ZD encoder wires to COM and NO.

[InfantSorrow]

Do your coin mech wires to Coil 1 and 2. 

ZD encoder wires to COM and NO.

Okay... cue the Richard Strauss - Also sprach Zarathustra...

[yotsuya]

[InfantSorrow]

hahaha

[yotsuya]

I admire your tenacity. That would be me in that image above by this point.

[InfantSorrow]

Do your coin mech wires to Coil 1 and 2. 

ZD encoder wires to COM and NO.

Okay... cue the Richard Strauss - Also sprach Zarathustra...

And.. not working lol

I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.
- Thomas A Edison

llet me tentatively fashion a coin chute while I await the next throw of the dice... lol
anyone wana fedex me a spare ipac? haha

[pbj]

I don't know, man, that should have been fairly idiot proof.  Are you sure your coin mech is actually pulsing out voltage like it's supposed to? I'd hook a DMM to the wires and make sure you're actually seeing something when a coin goes through it.

[InfantSorrow]

I don't know, man, that should have been fairly idiot proof.  Are you sure your coin mech is actually pulsing out voltage like it's supposed to? I'd hook a DMM to the wires and make sure you're actually seeing something when a coin goes through it.

In software dev, we have a saying. "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot- proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." lol

I wouldn't put it past me, mucking something up. I think the coin mech is pulsing, because when I put the coin mech on NC, I read 4.5v on the pulse and ground wire... and when I drop a coin it drops the voltage. (checking this on a digital multi meter)

Maybe what I have the relay pins pegged wrong.

[pbj]

You need to run the NO line from your coin mech to the relay.

The idea is that your coin mech pulses and clicks the relay.  If you're only getting 4.5V over the NO when a coin clears, it may not be enough voltage to drive your relay.

[PL1]

Did you remove the zener diode?

The zener diode acts differently than the normal (snubber) diode shown below.

In plumbing terms a diode is a spring-loaded one-way valve, and the zener diode adds an over-pressure (over-voltage) relief valve.

A 5v zener will prevent the coil for developing enough voltage to close a 12v relay.



     1. Try it without a snubber diode.

If that doesn't work,

     2. Try swapping the coil leads.


Scott

[InfantSorrow]

Did you remove the zener diode?

The zener diode acts differently than the normal (snubber) diode shown below.

In plumbing terms a diode is a spring-loaded one-way valve, and the zener diode adds an over-pressure (over-voltage) relief valve.

A 5v zener will prevent the coil for developing enough voltage to close a 12v relay.



     1. Try it without a snubber diode.

If that doesn't work,

     2. Try swapping the coil leads.


Scott

I removed the zener diode long ago when I picked up that the coin mech always pulses at 4.5v without one.

I actually didnt use a snubber diodr between the ground and pulse wire!
Maybe that is the problem. I will pick one up at store later.

Will give feedback.

I actually ordered other encoder types last week, i'm hoping they operate more conventionally.

Thanks again,
The infant

[PL1]

The only thing that the snubber diode does is prevent relay chatter from the collapsing magnetic field.

Don't bother buying a diode -- adding one won't make the relay work.


Scott

[PL1]

Found the datasheet for your 5v relays here.   

The pinout is at the bottom of page 2.

According to the datasheet, your 5v relay should close when you apply at least 3.75v@53mA. (200mW)

That should work.   


Scott

[InfantSorrow]

The only thing that the snubber diode does is prevent relay chatter from the collapsing magnetic field.

Don't bother buying a diode -- adding one won't make the relay work.


Scott

Scott, I think it is time to begin phase 3 of our plan. Or is it phase 2? I don't know phases.

[InfantSorrow]

Found the datasheet for your 5v relays here.   

The pinout is at the bottom of page 2.

According to the datasheet, your 5v relay should close when you apply at least 3.75v@53mA. (200mW)

That should work.   


Scott

Scott

You are my saviour man... my own personal jesus christ lol

On way to work now though, will check it when I rotate back.
Hold thumbs.

[PL1]

You are my saviour man... my own personal jesus christ lol

Sorry, that's already been debunked.   

I'm pretty sure Scott was an algorithm birthed by the internet to go and do good deeds to those of us who need the help.  A virtual Jesus if you will.   

Scott is a great guy.  But he is no Thomas A. Anderson.

I have helped a few people dodge the proverbial bullet, but stopping them in mid-air is not an option.

 

I'm happy to accept credit where credit is due, but I reject any implications that I'm a divine being or able to alter the Matrix.  I have enough trouble altering code to make a custom KADE firmware.   


Scott

[InfantSorrow]

Found the datasheet for your 5v relays here.   

The pinout is at the bottom of page 2.

According to the datasheet, your 5v relay should close when you apply at least 3.75v@53mA. (200mW)

That should work.   


Scott

Scott

You are my saviour man... my own personal jesus christ lol

On way to work now though, will check it when I rotate back.
Hold thumbs.

Scott,

Can you get the datasheet for the 5 pin, 12v relay I have? (The one being used for the coin mech / encoder wiring)

Also, what does 'Min. Switching Load' mean? I see it should be minimum 5v.
When I check the pulse voltage, its only 4.5v? I'm no electronics engineer, but could this mean it is expecting a minimum of a 5v pulse?

[PL1]

Can you get the datasheet for the 5 pin, 12v relay I have? (The one being used for the coin mech / encoder wiring)

The datasheet for your 12v relay is here. (Didn't find an english version.)

According to the datasheet, your 12v relay needs 8.4v to throw the switch.

When I check the pulse voltage, its only 4.5v? I'm no electronics engineer, but could this mean it is expecting a minimum of a 5v pulse?

Since the mech is putting out 4.5v, you'll need to use the 5v relay that will work with as little as 3.75v.

That's why I suggested several posts ago that you use the 5v relay instead of the 12v one that needs about 8.4v.

Also, what does 'Min. Switching Load' mean? I see it should be minimum 5v.

The relay contacts have a minimum load rating (5VDC, 10mA) to ensure that the voltage and current will break through any corrosion on the relay contacts.

The ZD should be providing enough power.

If you want to verify that, touch one lead from the ZD to COM and the other to NC.

If the button press registers, you're good to go.   


Scott

[InfantSorrow]

Can you get the datasheet for the 5 pin, 12v relay I have? (The one being used for the coin mech / encoder wiring)

The datasheet for your 12v relay is here. (Didn't find an english version.)

According to the datasheet, your 12v relay needs 8.4v to throw the switch.

When I check the pulse voltage, its only 4.5v? I'm no electronics engineer, but could this mean it is expecting a minimum of a 5v pulse?

Since the mech is putting out 4.5v, you'll need to use the 5v relay that will work with as little as 3.75v.

That's why I suggested several posts ago that you use the 5v relay instead of the 12v one that needs about 8.4v.

Also, what does 'Min. Switching Load' mean? I see it should be minimum 5v.

The relay contacts have a minimum load rating (5VDC, 10mA) to ensure that the voltage and current will break through any corrosion on the relay contacts.

The ZD should be providing enough power.

If you want to verify that, touch one lead from the ZD to COM and the other to NC.

If the button press registers, you're good to go.   


Scott

Ah, my deductive logic serves me well Scrumtrulescent!

I am slowly learning the ways of electronic wizardry lol
Perhaps one day, I shall take my rightful place as an honored member of the community...
and shed the tattered rags of noobosity forever!!

until that day, i shall continue to survive as a leech hanging from the balls of your collective intellectual prowess,
as a chinese man walking around in DARPA lol

Yours truly,
The infant

[HanoiBoi]

This thread is awesome.  Lots of great information.  I'll be sure to remember it as I click 'Submit' when ordering my next ipac.

Seriously though, I'm sure your wife would like to keep costs down, but if given the choice between spending $40 or losing her husband for cycle after cycle of troubleshooting, I'd think she might choose to spend the money.  Hey, you prolly pay the sitter more than that just to go catch dinner and a movie.  Time is money.

But, if its knowledge that you are seeking, carry on.  You can make it repeatable for your future builds.

[InfantSorrow]

This thread is awesome.  Lots of great information.  I'll be sure to remember it as I click 'Submit' when ordering my next ipac.

Seriously though, I'm sure your wife would like to keep costs down, but if given the choice between spending $40 or losing her husband for cycle after cycle of troubleshooting, I'd think she might choose to spend the money.  Hey, you prolly pay the sitter more than that just to go catch dinner and a movie.  Time is money.

But, if its knowledge that you are seeking, carry on.  You can make it repeatable for your future builds.

lol Hanoi

As mentioned before, it has now become more a matter of principle. a proof of concept really.
We know it's technically possible.

Also, once we get the first one working it would be a cinch to duplicate it and do it in 5 mins if the process was documented.
All you would need extra would be a $2 relay.

Think of it this way, usb encoder + coin mech + relay would set you back $22. You would only need the additional push buttons and arcade joystick. (How much is an ipac alone $45?)

You may think what I am doing is a waste of time, but I prefer to think of myself as the poorman 'cade builders robin hood lol

Cue the bryan adams.

Edit: I will try the ipac solution to compare, but I want to get this working first.