cheapy 'Zero Delay' USB encoder

[InfantSorrow]

Hello esteemed gentlemen!

I (as a noob) submit myself to the oracles of arcade system builders out of desperation! lol

First, a little bit of background.
Ever since 12, it has always been my dream to have my own authentic arcade machine in my home and finally after multiple groveling sessions and some sushi bribery, she agreed!

Now, I am not a complete noob when it comes to pc's emulator arcading.
* I have setup an old pc running maximus arcade and even a jukebox and I can toggle between these amicably. (I have even got all the in game    artwork to display for each game I have listed)  So the software side of it, I have licked.
* On the hardware side, I have ordered one of those ebay cheapos, the 'Zero delay USB encoder' (2 pin) because I have read that it basically works the same as an ipac. (which is expensive, remember the wife constraint lol). Wiring this up to my arcade joystick and push buttons was straightforward and simple and when testing it in the windows usb controller config, all joystick movements and buttons work.

So basically, all that I still need to do is build the actual housing cabinet using mdf board, which shouldn't be a problem because of my supreme dexterity lol. "Then why, pray tell, do you post here?" you may ask.
Well, I am struggling on the FINAL hurdle of my implementation. Getting the authentic look with a working coin mech.
Once again I have gone el cheapo ebay with this and ordered one of the one of the $10 single coin accepting ones. (It doesn't need to be fancy multicoin)
I have the coin mech running off a 12v molex from my pc power supply and it accepts good coins and rejects bums just fine when pc is powered on.

My problem is getting the white pulse wire to trigger some sort of a button press on the usb encoder!! I understand that the usb encoder operates at 5v and the coin mech at 12v, so any dumb connections can end up frying the encoder.
I have used 5v zener diode to get the voltage down, as suggested in some other readings, but how do I connect this pulse wire to the usb encoder which is expecting 2 pins, because it needs ground?
I suppose I could create some sort of a coin chute for the accepted coins to roll down and trigger a small microswitch, but this would be the long way around and a cop out on my part lol

Any help from you gurus would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Aldous Snow

[PL1]

Greetings and salutations, esteemed Aldous.   

Since you already have a properly placed zener diode to act as a voltage regulator, simply connect the encoder ground to the coin recognizer ground.



In case you're not sure which wire is ground, look at the underside of the ZD encoder -- all the wires/traces on the outside are tied together so that's ground 5v.



Scott

EDIT: Melvinbates mentions here that the ZD has 5v on the outside plane.

[InfantSorrow]

thank you, good sir! May a thousand suns smile upon you for your altruistic efforts lol

I will test this as soon as I can

[BobA]

It does not work as an ipac which gives you keyboard interface.   The ZD encoder shows up as a game pad.  This is not a problem in mame but gives some problems in emultors that restrict your input to the keyboard.

[InfantSorrow]

Hi Bob

The fact that the cheapo usb encoder shows up as a joypad and has no keyboard functionality shouldnt be that big a problem. You can use software such as 'joy2key' which basically maps your joypad buttons to keyboard keypress events. Hope that helps.

Technically, an ipac is $40 solution to a $5 problem.

[InfantSorrow]

@Scott

So my only problem was that I was wiring up the coin mech ground wire to pc psu ground and not to the ground of the usb encoder?

Sorry for all the q's, my lack of electronics prowess shames me lol
I am working to remedy this though!

Thanks again,
Aldous

[PL1]

In the diagram above, connect the wires from the desired ZD input (not shown) to the wires connected to the diode. (left side)

The ground wire should also connect to the ground on the molex connector to provide a return path for the 12v that powers the coin mech.

A picture of how you're connecting the encoder and coin mech may well be worth more than 1000 words for troubleshooting this issue if it's related to wiring.   

If it's not wiring, it may be the mode that the mech is in, but that's hard to say since you haven't mentioned which model you have. 


Scott

[InfantSorrow]

@ Scott

Once again, thanks for the assistance sir!

I will upload a pic of my attempts at wiring for you as soon as i get back home, I am just on my way to a wedding now.
Another poor friend of mine not knowing what he is signing up for! lol

Cheers,
Aldous

[InfantSorrow]

@Scott

In the diagram above, connect the wires from the desired ZD input (not shown) to the wires connected to the diode. (left side)

The ground wire should also connect to the ground on the molex connector to provide a return path for the 12v that powers the coin mech.

A picture of how you're connecting the encoder and coin mech may well be worth more than 1000 words for troubleshooting this issue if it's related to wiring.   

If it's not wiring, it may be the mode that the mech is in, but that's hard to say since you haven't mentioned which model you have. 


Scott

Good day, good sir.

Sorry for the late reply, but I needed some recovery time from the buddies send off. Overdid it a bit.

Here are those pics you asked for.

The zener diodes striped part of the wire is plugged into the coin mech pulse (white) and the other part of the diode goes into the ground.

Now for the coin mech switch settings:
* SW1 = NO  (I believe this is correct because the circuit is only suppose to be completed when the coin is inserted, hence only triggering a pulse with a   valid coin entry)
*SW2 = 100ms - SLOW
*SW3 = MGN (Here there are two options, MGN and NOM. I left this on default coz I don't know what the hell it means lol)

Please let me know if this is okay

Cheers,
Aldous

[PL1]

Looks good.

Does it work?


Scott

[InfantSorrow]

' Well throw me a freakin bone here Scott... we're in a VOLCANO, we're surrounded by liquid hot MAGMA.. ' lol

When i connect the encoder to usb port windows says usb device reported an error.
When i disconnect the button its fine.

[PL1]

*Returns from feeding the ill-tempered sea bass and working on the shark-head-mounted lasers.
(Research note to self: Don't use the long drywall screws for this application. They're a bit too long -- the sharks develop a nasty twitch and/or swim funny.)
------
Not sure what's wrong.

Disconnect the coin wire between the ZD and the coin mech but leave ground connected.
- Does the board still error when plugged in?
- If not, does shorting the ZD coin wire to ground register as a button press?

Check the voltage between the coin mech coin wire and ground -- does it drop from 5v to 0v when you drop in coins? (a digital meter may not respond fast enough to register this, but you should see a twitch on an analog meter)

Anyone have a ZD and a coin acceptor setup like this?

I don't have comparable hardware, so there's not much else I can do to help here.   


Scott

[InfantSorrow]

@Scott

When I just leave the ground connected it is still giving the error.

I have picked up a problem though. When i check the voltage between the coin wire and ground it shows as 3.8v (I flipped the NO to NC so i could check the closed circuit state for the voltage. This state results in 0v only when a coin is dropped, correct? On NC, this happens for the moment I drop the coin.)

I used a 5.1v zener diode, perhaps this is taking too much voltage away?

Once again, thanks for the help Scott

[PL1]

The fact that it's erroring with just the ground connected is a troubling sign.

Try separating the two circuits.

On the ZD:
-What is the voltage difference between the button leads?

On the coin mech:
- What is the voltage difference between the coin mech coin wire and ground?

- What voltage is it when the zener diode is disconnected?

Unless the zener is damaged, it should only regulate voltages that exceed 5v, any voltage at or below 5v shouldn't be affected.

The only other option that comes to mind is that you bought a coin mech that is designed to connect to a 3.3v microcontroller.

The model number of the coin mech and a link to the page where you bought it may also prove helpful.   


Scott

EDIT: Most of the time, I'll read all the posts in Main/Project Announcements/Woodworking/Artwork/Forum Discussion/Wiki Discussion/Pinball before I notice a PM or e-mail -- just sayin'.   

[BobA]

Check to see you are using the actual ground wire on the zd.  Colors do not matter the ground comes from the wire closest to the edge of the card.

[InfantSorrow]

The fact that it's erroring with just the ground connected is a troubling sign.

Try separating the two circuits.

On the ZD:
-What is the voltage difference between the button leads?

On the coin mech:
- What is the voltage difference between the coin mech coin wire and ground?

- What voltage is it when the zener diode is disconnected?

Unless the zener is damaged, it should only regulate voltages that exceed 5v, any voltage at or below 5v shouldn't be affected.

The only other option that comes to mind is that you bought a coin mech that is designed to connect to a 3.3v microcontroller.

The model number of the coin mech and a link to the page where you bought it may also prove helpful.   


Scott

EDIT: Most of the time, I'll read all the posts in Main/Project Announcements/Woodworking/Artwork/Forum Discussion/Wiki Discussion/Pinball before I notice a PM or e-mail -- just sayin'.   

Well, don't look at me like I'm freaken Frankenstein Scott.. give daddy a hug lol

- The voltage difference between working button leads is 4,5v

- Coin mech coin wire (NC) and ground is 3.74v (with diode)

- Coin mech coin wire (NC) and ground is 4.53v WITHOUT the diode??? Very strange.

I'm no electronics guru, but doesn't that mean I can connect the coin mech pulse wire to the usb encoder WITHOUT a diode? lol

Here is the coin mech I am using, bought it from these guys :
http://www.arcadespareparts.com/arcade_parts/coin_comparator_coin_validator/electronic_coin_comparator/13381.html

Find attached a pic of the supplied coin mech manual, not that it contains anything useful (I think)

Cheers,
The infant

[InfantSorrow]

Check to see you are using the actual ground wire on the zd.  Colors do not matter the ground comes from the wire closest to the edge of the card.

Well, if I knew what the hell I was doing... lol haha. I'm a software developer, I leave the hardware to you guys!

Here are some pics though.

Thanks for trying Bob. Your inputs are appreciated.

[BobA]

It looks like in the diagram you use the black wire from the ZD encoder input to connect to your ground.   That is not a ground wire the other wire is.  The one closest to your board edge or red if I am seeing colors correctly is the ground. 

Reverse your connections.

[JDFan]

It looks like in the diagram you use the black wire from the ZD encoder input to connect to your ground.   That is not a ground wire the other wire is.  The one closest to your board edge or red if I am seeing colors correctly is the ground. 

Reverse your connections.

^ THIS -- see pic below (click to enlarge)

[InfantSorrow]

It looks like in the diagram you use the black wire from the ZD encoder input to connect to your ground.   That is not a ground wire the other wire is.  The one closest to your board edge or red if I am seeing colors correctly is the ground. 

Reverse your connections.

Hi Bob

Please take a look at the pic. Just to be clear, you want me to swap the black wire and the red wire from the button connectors around? (new config to be usb encoder black wire to pulse and usb encoder red wire to ground)

It wont mess up the encoder if the polarity is reversed?

[JDFan]

Hi Bob

Please take a look at the pic. Just to be clear, you want me to swap the black wire and the red wire from the button connectors around? (new config to be usb encoder black wire to pulse and usb encoder red wire to ground)

It wont mess up the encoder if the polarity is reversed?

Correct -- as outlined in the post I made at the same time you posted - you can see how all of the outer connectors are linked together making a ground chain -- so that side of the connectors are your grounds

[InfantSorrow]

Hi Bob

Please take a look at the pic. Just to be clear, you want me to swap the black wire and the red wire from the button connectors around? (new config to be usb encoder black wire to pulse and usb encoder red wire to ground)

It wont mess up the encoder if the polarity is reversed?

Correct -- as outlined in the post I made at the same time you posted - you can see how all of the outer connectors are linked together making a ground chain -- so that side of the connectors are your grounds

ok JD. As is glaringly obvious, I am no electronics expert.. but WHY oh WHY don't they use standard colours for ground wires etc.
This will mess you up more if you dont know what the hell you are doing lol

[JDFan]

Hi Bob

Please take a look at the pic. Just to be clear, you want me to swap the black wire and the red wire from the button connectors around? (new config to be usb encoder black wire to pulse and usb encoder red wire to ground)

It wont mess up the encoder if the polarity is reversed?

Correct -- as outlined in the post I made at the same time you posted - you can see how all of the outer connectors are linked together making a ground chain -- so that side of the connectors are your grounds

ok JD. As is glaringly obvious, I am no electronics expert.. but WHY oh WHY don't they use standard colours for ground wires etc.
This will mess you up more if you dont know what the hell you are doing lol

Not sure - but the fact they have workers assembling them making less than $1 a day might have something to do with it ! 

[InfantSorrow]

Lol okay that little exercise just toasted my encoder!! haha

Luckily I always think ahead and I ordered 2 more last week, anticipating spectacular f%&ups on my part lol

I guess that concludes our testing for the day!

YOU guys should really take a look at these zero delay usb encoder kits on ebay. it worked well with the normal setup of push buttons and arcade joysticks.
Only thing is how to connect the damn coin mech!

I presume you gentlemen are running ipacs/jpacs? They are a bit pricey here. Like $60, a bit steep when you convert it here.

Thanks for the help regardless! Our battle to be continued with the arrival of reinforcements lol

[InfantSorrow]

Lol okay that little exercise just toasted my encoder!! haha

Luckily I always think ahead and I ordered 2 more last week, anticipating spectacular f%&ups on my part lol

I guess that concludes our testing for the day!

YOU guys should really take a look at these zero delay usb encoder kits on ebay. it worked well with the normal setup of push buttons and arcade joysticks.
Only thing is how to connect the damn coin mech!

I presume you gentlemen are running ipacs/jpacs? They are a bit pricey here. Like $60, a bit steep when you convert it here.

Thanks for the help regardless! Our battle to be continued with the arrival of reinforcements lol

OK false alarm the encoder is not fried! It was a bit hot.. and the USB light didnt come on with the reversed coin mech connection, so I assumed it dead.
Removed the coin mech connection and bingo, its online again.

Have you gentlemen reached your collective wits end with this problem? lol

Good, I need not be ashamed of my electronic prowess, if you guys are struggling with this too! ha

[BobA]

If the encoder was toasted when you changed the wires around it is your external circuit with the zener etc that must have fed back into it.   The encoder is definately not standard color coding as there does not seem to be any such use in China.  Do not connect your external circuit to another encoder until someone can help check how it is wired.  Sorry no time now I have to go out.

[InfantSorrow]

If the encoder was toasted when you changed the wires around it is your external circuit with the zener etc that must have fed back into it.   The encoder is definately not standard color coding as there does not seem to be any such use in China.  Do not connect your external circuit to another encoder until someone can help check how it is wired.  Sorry no time now I have to go out.

Bob, it wasnt toasted it's still alive I just removed the coin mech button connection and it came on again.

[melvinbates]

I have one of those zero delay boards (got it from Vigo back in the day)  I'll check it out and see if I can shed any light on how to solve this.

[InfantSorrow]

It looks like in the diagram you use the black wire from the ZD encoder input to connect to your ground.   That is not a ground wire the other wire is.  The one closest to your board edge or red if I am seeing colors correctly is the ground. 

Reverse your connections.

^ THIS -- see pic below (click to enlarge)

Hi guys. Just a quick q.

If the red wire coming from the encoder IS ground and the black wire is signal, then technically if I test the voltage between the 2 pin button encoder wires, I should get positive voltage if I put the red multimeter terminal on the black 2 pin wire and the black multimeter terminal on the red wire from the encoder, am I correct?
This is not the case though. If I test the wires this way, i get negative voltage. (-4.5v)
So wouldn't that mean that black wire from the 2 pin wires from the encoder is indeed ground?

[yotsuya]

Technically, an ipac is $40 solution to a $5 problem.

And it works right out of the box, without any extra software, diodes, coding, figthing, forum posts, etc. 

I've used many kinds of encoders (Zero Delay), and will stick with the I-Pac. My time and relaxation level is worth $40.

I don't use powered coin mechs, so that's a new one though.

[InfantSorrow]

Technically, an ipac is $40 solution to a $5 problem.

And it works right out of the box, without any extra software, diodes, coding, figthing, forum posts, etc. 

I've used many kinds of encoders (Zero Delay), and will stick with the I-Pac. My time and relaxation level is worth $40.

lol touché.

BUT we only need to figure this out ONCE.. then it will be forever documented in the minds of our guru brethren.
We shall battle forth and never give up! lol

On a side note, I joined this family about 3 days ago. I was a junior member up until yesterday, today I see I have been promoted to full membership lol
What are my benefits? Do members have 'stripper Fridays'? Champagne room passes? lol

Edit: Also, I must add that this cheapy USB encoder did exactly what it claims to do. It works well and took me 2 mins to setup with the buttons and arcade joystick.
So, for the price ($10) I think its an excellent alternative if we can get one of the button terminals to pick up the coin mech, which theoretically should be easy.
The NO state of the pulse wire should mimic the NO state of a button. When you press the button, it closes the circuit, just like when you drop a coin it should close the circuit.

That is how I analysed it anyways lol
Another thing, there is no software required with the encoder. Windows just picks up a joystick.
You should try it once, its only $10.

[InfantSorrow]

I have one of those zero delay boards (got it from Vigo back in the day)  I'll check it out and see if I can shed any light on how to solve this.

Melvin, that would be much appreciated.
I did not think this final coin mech hurdle would take me that long when setting up the buttons and joystick was so quick.

[yotsuya]

That is how I analysed it anyways lol
Another thing, there is no software required with the encoder. Windows just picks up a joystick.
You should try it once, its only $10.

I have used it, a couple of times even for small projects. For a full-size cab, I'll spend the extra $30, thank you. There are some front ends that really work better with a straight keystroke as opposed to a game pad.

[melvinbates]

I think the hurdle you are running into is the fact the the coin mech. is powered.  I haven't checked yet, but I'm fairly certain that the way the ZD works is by having the button lines pulled up to 4.5V like you saw on your meter and when a button is pressed it sinks the current, causing it to drop to 0v.  So the method of activation for the button on the ZD is different than what the coin mech is trying to do.  We may be able to overcome this by using a simple npn transistor as a go between.  I'll give it a try when I get home, but you would just need a simple general purpose npn transistor.  Hook the black wire from the zd to the collector, the red wire to the emitter, and hook the signal wire from your mech to the base of the transistor.  I think that should work, if my assumptions are correct...  But, I'll check it when i get home.

[InfantSorrow]

I think the hurdle you are running into is the fact the the coin mech. is powered.  I haven't checked yet, but I'm fairly certain that the way the ZD works is by having the button lines pulled up to 4.5V like you saw on your meter and when a button is pressed it sinks the current, causing it to drop to 0v.  So the method of activation for the button on the ZD is different than what the coin mech is trying to do.  We may be able to overcome this by using a simple npn transistor as a go between.  I'll give it a try when I get home, but you would just need a simple general purpose npn transistor.  Hook the black wire from the zd to the collector, the red wire to the emitter, and hook the signal wire from your mech to the base of the transistor.  I think that should work, if my assumptions are correct...  But, I'll check it when i get home.

Thanks Melvin. Give it a go and let me know.
And if you get it working, take some pics of the setup please. Coz I still might muck it up lol

Edit: Also, you are correct about the ZD button presses, just tested it now. When checking the voltage of the unpressed button, it shows 4.5v. When the is button pressed, it drops to 0v.

[PL1]

Thanks for the assist, Melvinbates.   

If the ZD is an active high device, it would explain why things aren't working as expected.


Scott

[melvinbates]

Well, I had a chance to check my own ZD and get some readings.  It seems that the way you had it hooked up originally should have worked.  The large back plane on the pcb is in fact the +5 and not the ground (Odd to say the least). 

EDIT:
Well or at least close to the way you had it hooked up.  i would try just hooking up the pulse wire to the black wire with the mech set to NO and if you want the ground from the usb connector to the ground of your mech, leave the red wire unhooked, it's just +5v.  the black is the one that runs to the chip on the board.  I think that should get it working for you.

[PL1]

Well, I had a chance to check my own ZD and get some readings.  It seems that the way you had it hooked up originally should have worked.  The large back plane on the pcb is in fact the +5 and not the ground (Odd to say the least). 

EDIT:
Well or at least close to the way you had it hooked up.  i would try just hooking up the pulse wire to the black wire with the mech set to NO and if you want the ground from the usb connector to the ground of your mech, leave the red wire unhooked, it's just +5v.  the black is the one that runs to the chip on the board.  I think that should get it working for you.

Will the Zener diode cause problems with this configuration?


Scott

[melvinbates]

I don't think the zenner will cause any problems if it's put on there correctly should just keep the voltage on the pulse <=5v.  I think the main problem he was running into was having the pulse on the wrong wire and feeding the 5v line into the pulse line was probably keeping the USB from initializing by sinking too much power.  Just conjecture but it makes sense to me.

[InfantSorrow]

Well, I had a chance to check my own ZD and get some readings.  It seems that the way you had it hooked up originally should have worked.  The large back plane on the pcb is in fact the +5 and not the ground (Odd to say the least). 

EDIT:
Well or at least close to the way you had it hooked up.  i would try just hooking up the pulse wire to the black wire with the mech set to NO and if you want the ground from the usb connector to the ground of your mech, leave the red wire unhooked, it's just +5v.  the black is the one that runs to the chip on the board.  I think that should get it working for you.

Gentlemen... just about to test this.
Drum roll please...

[InfantSorrow]

Well, I had a chance to check my own ZD and get some readings.  It seems that the way you had it hooked up originally should have worked.  The large back plane on the pcb is in fact the +5 and not the ground (Odd to say the least). 

EDIT:
Well or at least close to the way you had it hooked up.  i would try just hooking up the pulse wire to the black wire with the mech set to NO and if you want the ground from the usb connector to the ground of your mech, leave the red wire unhooked, it's just +5v.  the black is the one that runs to the chip on the board.  I think that should get it working for you.

Gentlemen... just about to test this.
Drum roll please...

"The defense department regrets to inform you that your sons are dead because they were stupid" Great balls of fire!' Lol

No joy guys. Maybe someone should just gift me an old ipac as an early christmas present lol
Kidding, this just makes me more determined. Is it that hard to make this damn thing sense a freakin pulse!

[pbj]

Why not just shove a mechanical switch underneath wherever a good coin is spit out, and hook that to the encoder?

Other thing I'd try is hooking up your coin mech pulses to a relay, and your encoder to that relay.  That'll completely isolate any ground or voltage differences.

[PL1]

Drum roll please...

+1 to PBJ.


Scott

[BobA]

Sounds like the way to go PBJ.   Too much analysis and conjecture using a live input.   We know the ZD works with a no contact so isolate it with a relay and problems are gone.

[InfantSorrow]

Sounds like the way to go PBJ.   Too much analysis and conjecture using a live input.   We know the ZD works with a no contact so isolate it with a relay and problems are gone.

Pbj. Read my original posting. I said I know I could use a microswitch to be triggered with a coin drop but that wouldnt be the elegant solution lol I will either do that or get an i-pac as a last resort.
But while there is still some life left in these old bones.. lol

Okay Scott and Bob. Walk me through the relay thing.
So I need to get a 5v relay at electronics shop?
How would the wiring work.

[PL1]

Here's the basic wiring.

The snubber diode is there to keep the collapsing magnetic field of the coil (curly part  ) from causing relay chatter -- some relays have this built-in, check the data sheet.

12v relays are common so you probably won't want/need the zener diode.

Haven't looked into the exact parts required for this application, but there are small SPST (shown in diagram) or SPDT relays like this that should do the trick.

Anyone have a known good parts recommendation/link?


Scott
EDIT: Here is a tutorial on relays.   

[InfantSorrow]

Here's the basic wiring.

The snubber diode is there to keep the collapsing magnetic field of the coil (curly part  ) from causing relay chatter -- some relays have this built-in, check the data sheet.

12v relays are common so you probably won't want/need the zener diode.

Haven't looked into the exact parts required for this application, but there are small SPST (shown in diagram) or SPDT relays like this that should do the trick.

Anyone have a known good parts recommendation/link?


Scott
EDIT: Here is a tutorial on relays.   

Turns out I already have these on hand. Got all this at the start of the project when reading up on all this.

I will hook this up now and take a pic.

Thanks Scott

Edit: I have 2 sets of these relays. 2 x big ones (DC5V-N) and 2 x small ones (DC12V-N)
I should use the 12v, correct

Edited Edit (lol) : Your 12v relay has 4 pins.. mine has 5? Maybe I don't have the right component? I did ask for 12v relay though when I bought it

[PL1]

Your 5 pin relay is almost certainly a SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw) -- like a HAPP button microswitch that has COM, NO, and NC terminals instead of a Seimitsu with just COM and NO terminals.



Looks like the terminals on your 12v relay are arranged like this:

 NC     NO

Coil1   Coil2            COM


Scott

[InfantSorrow]

Your 5 pin relay is almost certainly a SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw) -- like a HAPP button microswitch that has COM, NO, and NC terminals instead of a Seimitsu with just COM and NO terminals.




Scott

So, I'm assuming the lonely isolated pin is common and on each side you have clustered NO, NC and positive coil, negative coil?

Once again, thanks Scott and everyone else pitching in here.. i'm learning alot

[PL1]

Yes, tracked down a datasheet while you were posting and added the pinout above.

Check to see if the coil has a + or - marking -- if not marked, it shouldn't matter which side of the coil connects to ground.


Scott

[InfantSorrow]

Yes, tracked down a datasheet while you were posting and added the pinout above.

Check to see if the coil has a + or - marking -- if not marked, it shouldn't matter which side of the coil connects to ground.


Scott

Take a look at pin markings, this is as I understand it.
There is no positive, negative coil indication.

[PL1]

Not sure if the diagram on the relay is a top view or bottom view.

To verify which pair of pins is coil and which is NO and NC, use a multimeter to check for continuity between COM and the pin you think is NC.

If you get <2 ohms, you're on COM and NC.   


Scott

[InfantSorrow]

Not sure if the diagram on the relay is a top view or bottom view.

To verify which pair of pins is coil and which is NO and NC, use a multimeter to check for continuity between COM and the pin you think is NC.

If you get <2 ohms, you're on COM and NC.   


Scott

Well throw me a freakin bone here Scott.. I will test this when I get home
I hope this works, I don't want to have to fiddle around making coin chutes onto microswitches or have to give in and get an i-pac lol

I'm making a stand!

This coin mech pulse problem is proving to be the snake to my mongoose... or, the mongoose to my snake.
Either way, it's bad. I don't know animals.

[PL1]

Of course, you realise that once you get this working, you'll need to provide a summary post with clear diagrams, pics and a parts list for an update to the wiki Coin Doors entry so the next guy doesn't have to go through this again. 


Scott

[InfantSorrow]

Of course, you realise that once you get this working, you'll need to provide a summary post with clear diagrams, pics and a parts list for an update to the wiki Coin Doors entry so the next guy doesn't have to go through this again. 


Scott

lol Of course!  I'm all about community upliftment and helping out my fellow brothers lol

But seriously, you guys took your time to help me and I would do that gladly.
I'm just a newbie, but I like the setup you guys have here. I will be frequenting this place more often you're gona get sick of me lol

[melvinbates]

Good luck with the relay.  Looking at a few datasheets on relays I have, the reaction time of a relay is generally under 10ms.  So any one of the pulse lengths should be able to get it to fire and hold it long enough for the ZD to notice it.

[InfantSorrow]

Good luck with the relay.  Looking at a few datasheets on relays I have, the reaction time of a relay is generally under 10ms.  So any one of the pulse lengths should be able to get it to fire and hold it long enough for the ZD to notice it.

Ok guys. Home now.
Putting on my kiss costume coz im ready to rock & roll lol

So.. before I connect everything up let me get the wiring down.

- Ground wires (usb encoder + coin mech) to be joined to COM on the relay
- Coin mech pulse wire to NO on the relay
- usb signal pin (red wire?) to any coil?

Thanks again
The infant

[pbj]

No.

[InfantSorrow]

No.

well throw me a freakin' bone here peabody

[pbj]

Do your coin mech wires to Coil 1 and 2. 

ZD encoder wires to COM and NO.

[InfantSorrow]

Do your coin mech wires to Coil 1 and 2. 

ZD encoder wires to COM and NO.

Okay... cue the Richard Strauss - Also sprach Zarathustra...

[yotsuya]

[InfantSorrow]

hahaha

[yotsuya]

I admire your tenacity. That would be me in that image above by this point.

[InfantSorrow]

Do your coin mech wires to Coil 1 and 2. 

ZD encoder wires to COM and NO.

Okay... cue the Richard Strauss - Also sprach Zarathustra...

And.. not working lol

I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.
- Thomas A Edison

llet me tentatively fashion a coin chute while I await the next throw of the dice... lol
anyone wana fedex me a spare ipac? haha

[pbj]

I don't know, man, that should have been fairly idiot proof.  Are you sure your coin mech is actually pulsing out voltage like it's supposed to? I'd hook a DMM to the wires and make sure you're actually seeing something when a coin goes through it.

[InfantSorrow]

I don't know, man, that should have been fairly idiot proof.  Are you sure your coin mech is actually pulsing out voltage like it's supposed to? I'd hook a DMM to the wires and make sure you're actually seeing something when a coin goes through it.

In software dev, we have a saying. "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot- proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." lol

I wouldn't put it past me, mucking something up. I think the coin mech is pulsing, because when I put the coin mech on NC, I read 4.5v on the pulse and ground wire... and when I drop a coin it drops the voltage. (checking this on a digital multi meter)

Maybe what I have the relay pins pegged wrong.

[pbj]

You need to run the NO line from your coin mech to the relay.

The idea is that your coin mech pulses and clicks the relay.  If you're only getting 4.5V over the NO when a coin clears, it may not be enough voltage to drive your relay.

[PL1]

Did you remove the zener diode?

The zener diode acts differently than the normal (snubber) diode shown below.

In plumbing terms a diode is a spring-loaded one-way valve, and the zener diode adds an over-pressure (over-voltage) relief valve.

A 5v zener will prevent the coil for developing enough voltage to close a 12v relay.



     1. Try it without a snubber diode.

If that doesn't work,

     2. Try swapping the coil leads.


Scott

[InfantSorrow]

Did you remove the zener diode?

The zener diode acts differently than the normal (snubber) diode shown below.

In plumbing terms a diode is a spring-loaded one-way valve, and the zener diode adds an over-pressure (over-voltage) relief valve.

A 5v zener will prevent the coil for developing enough voltage to close a 12v relay.



     1. Try it without a snubber diode.

If that doesn't work,

     2. Try swapping the coil leads.


Scott

I removed the zener diode long ago when I picked up that the coin mech always pulses at 4.5v without one.

I actually didnt use a snubber diodr between the ground and pulse wire!
Maybe that is the problem. I will pick one up at store later.

Will give feedback.

I actually ordered other encoder types last week, i'm hoping they operate more conventionally.

Thanks again,
The infant

[PL1]

The only thing that the snubber diode does is prevent relay chatter from the collapsing magnetic field.

Don't bother buying a diode -- adding one won't make the relay work.


Scott

[PL1]

Found the datasheet for your 5v relays here.   

The pinout is at the bottom of page 2.

According to the datasheet, your 5v relay should close when you apply at least 3.75v@53mA. (200mW)

That should work.   


Scott

[InfantSorrow]

The only thing that the snubber diode does is prevent relay chatter from the collapsing magnetic field.

Don't bother buying a diode -- adding one won't make the relay work.


Scott

Scott, I think it is time to begin phase 3 of our plan. Or is it phase 2? I don't know phases.

[InfantSorrow]

Found the datasheet for your 5v relays here.   

The pinout is at the bottom of page 2.

According to the datasheet, your 5v relay should close when you apply at least 3.75v@53mA. (200mW)

That should work.   


Scott

Scott

You are my saviour man... my own personal jesus christ lol

On way to work now though, will check it when I rotate back.
Hold thumbs.

[PL1]

You are my saviour man... my own personal jesus christ lol

Sorry, that's already been debunked.   

I'm pretty sure Scott was an algorithm birthed by the internet to go and do good deeds to those of us who need the help.  A virtual Jesus if you will.   

Scott is a great guy.  But he is no Thomas A. Anderson.

I have helped a few people dodge the proverbial bullet, but stopping them in mid-air is not an option.

 

I'm happy to accept credit where credit is due, but I reject any implications that I'm a divine being or able to alter the Matrix.  I have enough trouble altering code to make a custom KADE firmware.   


Scott

[InfantSorrow]

Found the datasheet for your 5v relays here.   

The pinout is at the bottom of page 2.

According to the datasheet, your 5v relay should close when you apply at least 3.75v@53mA. (200mW)

That should work.   


Scott

Scott

You are my saviour man... my own personal jesus christ lol

On way to work now though, will check it when I rotate back.
Hold thumbs.

Scott,

Can you get the datasheet for the 5 pin, 12v relay I have? (The one being used for the coin mech / encoder wiring)

Also, what does 'Min. Switching Load' mean? I see it should be minimum 5v.
When I check the pulse voltage, its only 4.5v? I'm no electronics engineer, but could this mean it is expecting a minimum of a 5v pulse?

[PL1]

Can you get the datasheet for the 5 pin, 12v relay I have? (The one being used for the coin mech / encoder wiring)

The datasheet for your 12v relay is here. (Didn't find an english version.)

According to the datasheet, your 12v relay needs 8.4v to throw the switch.

When I check the pulse voltage, its only 4.5v? I'm no electronics engineer, but could this mean it is expecting a minimum of a 5v pulse?

Since the mech is putting out 4.5v, you'll need to use the 5v relay that will work with as little as 3.75v.

That's why I suggested several posts ago that you use the 5v relay instead of the 12v one that needs about 8.4v.

Also, what does 'Min. Switching Load' mean? I see it should be minimum 5v.

The relay contacts have a minimum load rating (5VDC, 10mA) to ensure that the voltage and current will break through any corrosion on the relay contacts.

The ZD should be providing enough power.

If you want to verify that, touch one lead from the ZD to COM and the other to NC.

If the button press registers, you're good to go.   


Scott

[InfantSorrow]

Can you get the datasheet for the 5 pin, 12v relay I have? (The one being used for the coin mech / encoder wiring)

The datasheet for your 12v relay is here. (Didn't find an english version.)

According to the datasheet, your 12v relay needs 8.4v to throw the switch.

When I check the pulse voltage, its only 4.5v? I'm no electronics engineer, but could this mean it is expecting a minimum of a 5v pulse?

Since the mech is putting out 4.5v, you'll need to use the 5v relay that will work with as little as 3.75v.

That's why I suggested several posts ago that you use the 5v relay instead of the 12v one that needs about 8.4v.

Also, what does 'Min. Switching Load' mean? I see it should be minimum 5v.

The relay contacts have a minimum load rating (5VDC, 10mA) to ensure that the voltage and current will break through any corrosion on the relay contacts.

The ZD should be providing enough power.

If you want to verify that, touch one lead from the ZD to COM and the other to NC.

If the button press registers, you're good to go.   


Scott

Ah, my deductive logic serves me well Scrumtrulescent!

I am slowly learning the ways of electronic wizardry lol
Perhaps one day, I shall take my rightful place as an honored member of the community...
and shed the tattered rags of noobosity forever!!

until that day, i shall continue to survive as a leech hanging from the balls of your collective intellectual prowess,
as a chinese man walking around in DARPA lol

Yours truly,
The infant

[HanoiBoi]

This thread is awesome.  Lots of great information.  I'll be sure to remember it as I click 'Submit' when ordering my next ipac.

Seriously though, I'm sure your wife would like to keep costs down, but if given the choice between spending $40 or losing her husband for cycle after cycle of troubleshooting, I'd think she might choose to spend the money.  Hey, you prolly pay the sitter more than that just to go catch dinner and a movie.  Time is money.

But, if its knowledge that you are seeking, carry on.  You can make it repeatable for your future builds.

[InfantSorrow]

This thread is awesome.  Lots of great information.  I'll be sure to remember it as I click 'Submit' when ordering my next ipac.

Seriously though, I'm sure your wife would like to keep costs down, but if given the choice between spending $40 or losing her husband for cycle after cycle of troubleshooting, I'd think she might choose to spend the money.  Hey, you prolly pay the sitter more than that just to go catch dinner and a movie.  Time is money.

But, if its knowledge that you are seeking, carry on.  You can make it repeatable for your future builds.

lol Hanoi

As mentioned before, it has now become more a matter of principle. a proof of concept really.
We know it's technically possible.

Also, once we get the first one working it would be a cinch to duplicate it and do it in 5 mins if the process was documented.
All you would need extra would be a $2 relay.

Think of it this way, usb encoder + coin mech + relay would set you back $22. You would only need the additional push buttons and arcade joystick. (How much is an ipac alone $45?)

You may think what I am doing is a waste of time, but I prefer to think of myself as the poorman 'cade builders robin hood lol

Cue the bryan adams.

Edit: I will try the ipac solution to compare, but I want to get this working first.

[pbj]

Relays are extraordinarily useful and simple once you get the hang of it.  You'll think of a million uses for them once you've gotten this problem solved.

[melvinbates]

Relays are extraordinarily useful and simple once you get the hang of it.  You'll think of a million uses for them once you've gotten this problem solved.

And they make such a satisfying clicking noise.  But I agree with PL1, run a 5v relay and remove the zenner diode from your mech.  Even if it pulses out a 12v signal, the duty cycle on your relay will be low enough it won't affect anything or even get a chance to warm the coils.

[InfantSorrow]

Hi guys. I am back home and I have re-entered my lab... ready to battle again lol

I've taken a look at the wiring diagram of my 5v relay. Have a question because it doesn't explicitly mention COM / NO /NC etc.

I have colour code tagged the diagram with what I assume it means.

[PL1]

You're reading schematics like a pro.   


Scott

[InfantSorrow]

You're reading schematics like a pro.   


Scott

lol why, thank you Scott.

[InfantSorrow]

Gentlemen....

We have liftoff...

I would like to thank Bob,Peabody (pbj), Melvin, Yotsuya... everyone that made this possible.

*Infant begins to sob* But a special thanks has to go out to my agent... Scotty Maguire (PL1)
You are my ambassador of 'cade man.

[PL1]

Glad to hear it.   

Now for the testing and documentation.   

Are you getting chatter on the relay?

You should be able to drop 10 coins and get 10 credits -- test this using an old-school game that only does 1:1 coin/credit ratio.

Also, try putting the zener diode back in -- it should work as a snubber for this setup if you have any chatter.

Do you mind taking a few good pics (side view and front angle view with a contrasting/neutral backdrop) of your coin recognizer for the wiki?


Scott

[InfantSorrow]

Will do my wingman Scott lol

At the office now though, have a spring in my step.

Whats the next challenge? lol

[InfantSorrow]

Glad to hear it.   

Now for the testing and documentation.   

Are you getting chatter on the relay?

You should be able to drop 10 coins and get 10 credits -- test this using an old-school game that only does 1:1 coin/credit ratio.

Also, try putting the zener diode back in -- it should work as a snubber for this setup if you have any chatter.

Do you mind taking a few good pics (side view and front angle view with a contrasting/neutral backdrop) of your coin recognizer for the wiki?


Scott

Scotty

1 coin drop registers a credit

I will take pics of everything when Its done and not so crappy looking. Going to solder the relay to the wires from the coin mech and usb encoder.
Right now they are just crudely tied together. (Soldering is another thing I know nothing about, so bear with me lol)

Woodworking.. I am an old pro at that!

[melvinbates]

Glad you got it working.   

[PL1]

Soldering is another thing I know nothing about

There's a thread here for that.   


Scott

[InfantSorrow]

Soldering is another thing I know nothing about

There's a thread here for that.   


Scott

This is why you are my wingman... lol

[InfantSorrow]

Okay, just to keep you guys posted.
Got my mdf boards today, production shall begin in earnest lol

Getting the jigs out as we speak.

Also, received an arcade usb encoder kit from the chinaman Saturday.
This one isn't zero delay though, it kinda looks like a mini ipac. (Think its called a xin mo)

Anyways, chairman xin mo can be reviewed some other day. Right now I have bigger fish to fry lol

[InfantSorrow]

Okay people..

I tested the xin mo usb encoder, it seems better made and easier to config to work with coin mech. (Similar to the way an ipac works)

You need to tell me these things..
I'm the bossman... need the info.... lol

In hindsight, I would have gone this route

[bradx]

i started with the ipac years ago, switched to the keywiz, and honestly, for the projects i do, i have found the ZD encoder to be cheapest and easiest by far.  i admit, my projects are not as spectacular as some of yours, but i have gotten satisfactory results for myself and friends from the ZD.  compared to messing with the other older interfaces, i had the ZD wired up in just a couple minutes.  obviously, its not for EVERY application, but for a simple, quick, cheap interface its unbeatable! 

[InfantSorrow]

i started with the ipac years ago, switched to the keywiz, and honestly, for the projects i do, i have found the ZD encoder to be cheapest and easiest by far.  i admit, my projects are not as spectacular as some of yours, but i have gotten satisfactory results for myself and friends from the ZD.  compared to messing with the other older interfaces, i had the ZD wired up in just a couple minutes.  obviously, its not for EVERY application, but for a simple, quick, cheap interface its unbeatable!

SILENCE!! I will not tolerate your insolence!
lol

I agree the ZD is bang for your buck but it is a mission to get a coin mech going.
If you don't wish to go full arcade simulation then by all means, go ahead. I recommend the ZD for ease of use.

But if you willing to pay just a little more and want something a little better made with easier coin mech hookup, then get the chairman xin mao

[InfantSorrow]

Okay, throw me a freak'n bone here Scott...

[InfantSorrow]

No way to get the latest mame working with Joy2key anyone?

[InfantSorrow]

No way to get the latest mame working with Joy2key anyone?

My god, you certainly are a handsome fellow, Infantsorrow.

Allow myself to introduce... myself.
I am you from the immediate future, a future in which you have already solved this problem.

The answer to your conundrum is to compile Mame with DirectInput support.

Cheerio,
Me

[PL1]

Quick q. Would there be any particular reason why my NC and NO are working in reverse when wired up to the xin mo?

When coin mech is on NO, windows joystick config reads the button as being pressed by default and a coin drop registers as a non press.
With NC its vice versa.
When on NO, the coin mech works fine and will be responsive for all coin drops. (Albeit, working in reverse order with a coin drop registering a non press)
But when I use NC (which works in the correct manner) after a while the coin mech seems to stop registering input

Have you seen this kinda thing before? Maybe I should reverse the wires from the coin mech to chairman mo?

When in doubt, go back to basics.

Ran these tests on a friend's 1-Player Xin-Mo. (Can't guarantee yours will get the same results so I'm listing the tests I ran in case you want to duplicate the results on your end.)

*5v on the Xin-Mo inputs (black lead on the USB connector body) -- check.

*Encoder ground at same voltage as USB ground -- check

*Encoder ground not isolated from USB ground (short input to USB connector body) -- double check (encoder even registers a button press when ground comes from a different USB cable)

Based on these results, the Xin-Mo should register a button press whenever ground is applied to an input.
-----------
On your setup:
(before connecting the coin mech to the Xin-Mo)
*Is 12v connected to the coin mech?

*Is the zener diode installed?

*Is there normally 5v on the coin signal wire that dips when you drop in a coin? (you may need to change the NO/NC setting to get this to work right)

(connect the coin mech to the Xin-Mo)
*Is the Xin-Mo input connected to the coin mech coin signal wire?

*Is the Xin-Mo ground connected to coin mech ground?




Scott

[InfantSorrow]

Quick q. Would there be any particular reason why my NC and NO are working in reverse when wired up to the xin mo?

When coin mech is on NO, windows joystick config reads the button as being pressed by default and a coin drop registers as a non press.
With NC its vice versa.
When on NO, the coin mech works fine and will be responsive for all coin drops. (Albeit, working in reverse order with a coin drop registering a non press)
But when I use NC (which works in the correct manner) after a while the coin mech seems to stop registering input

Have you seen this kinda thing before? Maybe I should reverse the wires from the coin mech to chairman mo?

When in doubt, go back to basics.

Ran these tests on a friend's 1-Player Xin-Mo. (Can't guarantee yours will get the same results so I'm listing the tests I ran in case you want to duplicate the results on your end.)

*5v on the Xin-Mo inputs (black lead on the USB connector body) -- check.

*Encoder ground at same voltage as USB ground -- check

*Encoder ground not isolated from USB ground (short input to USB connector body) -- double check (encoder even registers a button press when ground comes from a different USB cable)

Based on these results, the Xin-Mo should register a button press whenever ground is applied to an input.
-----------
On your setup:
(before connecting the coin mech to the Xin-Mo)
*Is 12v connected to the coin mech?

*Is the zener diode installed?

*Is there normally 5v on the coin signal wire that dips when you drop in a coin? (you may need to change the NO/NC setting to get this to work right)

(connect the coin mech to the Xin-Mo)
*Is the Xin-Mo input connected to the coin mech coin signal wire?

*Is the Xin-Mo ground connected to coin mech ground?

Scott

Ok Scotty will double check this when I get home.

On a related note... In electronics, what do you usually use to check the voltage of something that is quick pulsing?
It seems a DMM is not the best instrument to use to check for that.

Should I make a point to acquire an analog multimeter to add to my arsenal and aid my growing electronic prowess?

Yours faithfully,
Dr. Evil

[PL1]

An analog meter is always a good addition to your toolbox.

If you have access to an O'scope, that's an even better way to look at what's going on -- not worth investing in one for just this, though.   


Scott

[InfantSorrow]

An analog meter is always a good addition to your toolbox.

If you have access to an O'scope, that's an even better way to look at what's going on -- not worth investing in one for just this, though.   


Scott

Already picked up an analog multimeter on my way home from work. Picked it up for your equivalent of $6.
Also, the problem I mentioned earlier seems to have gone away by its own. Weird.
Didnt change anything.

Must be the chinaman screwing with me lol

[PL1]

The gremlins heard about my earlier post and fled. (again)   


Scott

[InfantSorrow]

The gremlins heard about my earlier post and fled. (again)   


Scott

This is why I cloned you, minime. lol

Just finished recompiling mame without nag screens and with directinput.
Man, that took 4 hours! Let me backup this compiled version!

[Tilloux]

Glad to hear it.   

Now for the testing and documentation.   

Are you getting chatter on the relay?

You should be able to drop 10 coins and get 10 credits -- test this using an old-school game that only does 1:1 coin/credit ratio.

Also, try putting the zener diode back in -- it should work as a snubber for this setup if you have any chatter.

Do you mind taking a few good pics (side view and front angle view with a contrasting/neutral backdrop) of your coin recognizer for the wiki?


Scott

Scotty

1 coin drop registers a credit

I will take pics of everything when Its done and not so crappy looking. Going to solder the relay to the wires from the coin mech and usb encoder.
Right now they are just crudely tied together. (Soldering is another thing I know nothing about, so bear with me lol)

Woodworking.. I am an old pro at that!

Hi InfantSorrow,

I have been reading this thread with great interest because I am struggling to get my coin mech working.
Can you sum up the connexion you did between the pc molex, the relay and the ZD encoder ?
Also can you confirm that the relay I am using is ok http://i1289.photobucket.com/albums/b508/Smeeters/20140702_083131_zpse4a8cc33.jpg

Thanks!

[a_netanel]

Sadly, the OP forgot his promise to post a thorough explanation of the final configuration...
As a total beginner in electronics, I could not understand from this thread what to actually do in order to get the ZD to detect the coin drop as a button press.

The problem is that the coin mech that I'm using (ch-268t) outputs an "Open Collector", and does not simply "closes" a circuit.
But, after some tinkering and reading this document I got it, so I'm here sharing for n00bs like myself

This is the wiring diagram that I've used:


I hope it is gonna be helpful for the next guy that attempts this

[Sushi-man]

Sadly, the OP forgot his promise to post a thorough explanation of the final configuration...
As a total beginner in electronics, I could not understand from this thread what to actually do in order to get the ZD to detect the coin drop as a button press.

The problem is that the coin mech that I'm using (ch-268t) outputs an "Open Collector", and does not simply "closes" a circuit.
But, after some tinkering and reading this document I got it, so I'm here sharing for n00bs like myself

This is the wiring diagram that I've used:


Hello.
I have the same problema but in my case, my coin mech is a comestero rm5 light selfprog and the problem is i dont know where is the NO pin, because all i have is a 10-pin cable going to the interior of my cabinet. Can tou help me on that ? Thank you.

I hope it is gonna be helpful for the next guy that attempts this