Author Topic: First post, go easy on me...please (Read 6017 times)

Sarver Systems · « **on:** October 12, 2013, 12:20:02 pm »

I watched the tutorials, and read a bunch of posts, but I still have a few questions regarding recapping and putting in a new flyback.

#1: When discharging the flyback, obviously I need to ground it to the chassis. But does the chassis need to be grounded to the wall outlet?
#2: Do I need to discharge any of the caps, or can I jusy start desoldering as soon as the flyback is discharged?
#3: How do I know if the chassis even needs recapped or a new flyback installed?

The issue with the current one I am working on is this:

The display is VERY out of focus, even when adjusting the focus control on the flyback.
The colors are pretty much non-existant, even when messing with the controls for the colors.

Also, one last question...

Other than Bob Roberts, where is a good reputable place to buy the supplies I need? Bob Robert's website is acting up...pages not loading, IE crashing etc... Plus, he doesn't take Paypal, which is kind of a killer for me.

ed12 · « **Reply #1 on:** October 12, 2013, 12:47:40 pm »

#1 no,just to the chassic
#2 depends..if u are playing in the power supply part or not
#3 as a rule the fuse will blow if the flyback is bad,or u c cracks
and any good electronic parts seller will have the caps

to the color and foucs problem
i would first suggest u get the tube chked
as when they :gun-down: >age< that is a common problem

ed

Sarver Systems · « **Reply #2 on:** October 12, 2013, 12:58:56 pm »

I'm going to recap the chassis anyways, I'm confident in my soldering skills (been soldering for 25+ years), I'm just not sure of the specifics of the details for this situation.

I'm not sure I understand your last line you wrote. Can you reword it?

ed12 · « **Reply #3 on:** October 12, 2013, 01:18:23 pm »

>as when they :gun-down: >age< that is a common problem<
...........
u have to understand that as a tube >ages< 10+ years
the guns red/green/blue get weak
in the trade we call that gunning down
so we reju the tube
clean/balance..to see if we can get it back up to 80+ %
this works 80% of the time
and then u can re-balance/foucs the tube

ed

Sarver Systems · « **Reply #4 on:** October 12, 2013, 10:55:42 pm »

I'm not sure of the age of the tube, but I remember it being on a label. I'll have to look.

So you're suggesting it is a problem with the guns, rather than the flyback?

If so, I don't have a rejuve kit... I do know someone who has one though. I just may ask him about it as well.

Would it help if I took a short video of what its doing, and post it here?

ed12 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 12, 2013, 11:25:59 pm »

now we are about on the same wave legnth
age and type is about all is needed
if the mfg's date is on the tube ?
the type will be for sure,mfg date is ??

ed

BC_Jeffro · « **Reply #6 on:** October 12, 2013, 11:42:05 pm »

i had a working fly back that would not focus and sure enough there was a (very small) crack in the fly back replaced and prob solved

Sarver Systems · « **Reply #7 on:** October 14, 2013, 02:54:40 pm »

I'm heading over there tonight. I'll grab the manufacturing info and grab a quick video of what its doing.

Sarver Systems · « **Reply #8 on:** October 15, 2013, 10:52:12 am »

I've got some pictures of it, but surprisingly, it wasnt acting up nearly as much when I took the pics.

I'll get them uploaded ASAP (I'm at work right now).

When I took the pics, the focus was pretty good, and the colors were passable, but still pretty bad.

I was able to snap a video of it too.

Sarver Systems · « **Reply #9 on:** October 16, 2013, 01:04:56 am »

Here's some pics, with descriptions of what I'm trying to point out.

Here is a pic of the monitor right when it was booted up. As you can see, the image is fairly clear, with pretty decent focus.

This pic is about 15 minutes after warmed up.

This pic is of the game being played.

As you can see in this pic, the text is VERY out of focus now. My camera had a hard time trying to get a good pic of it. This is what the text actually looks like on the monitor.

Sarver Systems · « **Reply #10 on:** October 16, 2013, 01:07:29 am »

The chassis has a 2000 datecode sticker on it.

Sarver Systems · « **Reply #11 on:** October 16, 2013, 08:47:07 am »

Are the pics working? I'm at work, getting red X's.

TopJimmyCooks · « **Reply #12 on:** October 16, 2013, 09:26:06 am »

pics are fine. I'm not a crt guy but someone will chime in.

Sarver Systems · « **Reply #13 on:** October 17, 2013, 12:24:48 pm »

Anyone have any ideas on this?

Sarver Systems · « **Reply #14 on:** October 20, 2013, 11:12:55 pm »

I'm assuming, to discharge the caps, just short the 2 leads together? Or the + lead to chassis ground?

Sarver Systems · « **Reply #15 on:** October 20, 2013, 11:35:42 pm »

I just reposted the pics on my own server for reilaibility.

Note to self: Facebook does not like hotlinking images.

ed12 · « **Reply #16 on:** October 20, 2013, 11:46:52 pm »

to strat with that it is called bloonimg
u have the screen up to high
driving the foucs out,+ your horz width sucks
lets start with turning down the screen,foucs,brigthness,contrast,then we make it go to :cut-off:
at which point we can reset the r-g-b guns to find :grey-scale:,
then we can work the screen control's and :all: up..
start there

ed

Sarver Systems · « **Reply #17 on:** October 20, 2013, 11:52:38 pm »

The screen is fine at bootup though. If the controls were too high, wouldn't it do that all the time, not just after it warms up?

I'm not doubting your suggestion, I am just trying to wrap my head around it. I'm learning this as I go, your advice is greatly appreciated.

ed12 · « **Reply #18 on:** October 21, 2013, 12:02:48 am »

right here

I watched the tutorials, and read a bunch of posts, but I still have a few questions regarding recapping and putting in a new flyback.

#1: When discharging the flyback, obviously I need to ground it to the chassis. But does the chassis need to be grounded to the wall outlet?
#2: Do I need to discharge any of the caps, or can I jusy start desoldering as soon as the flyback is discharged?
#3: How do I know if the chassis even needs recapped or a new flyback installed?

The issue with the current one I am working on is this:

>>The display is VERY out of focus, even when adjusting the focus control on the flyback.
The colors are pretty much non-existant, even when messing with the controls for the colors.<<

Also, one last question...

Other than Bob Roberts, where is a good reputable place to buy the supplies I need? Bob Robert's website is acting up...pages not loading, IE crashing etc... Plus, he doesn't take Paypal, which is kind of a killer for me.

now i advised u what to do
so now
we know u are running mame
u need to ask your self why does it seem to boot right then do this in the game?
plus u messed with the controls..token no no
they are set at the factory..as a rule easy to adjust in the field
this of course applys to normal freq and refresh rates
any of the above will drive the monitor crazy
so what we do do is set it back to normal and work away
so in short get to normal
and work away

ed

Sarver Systems · « **Reply #19 on:** October 21, 2013, 12:10:21 am »

This particular machine is not a MAME. Its completely factory, unadulterated.

the machines takes a good 2 minutes to boot. At the very beginning, the picture is good, but as it warms up, the picture gets worse and worse, to the point it is unplayable, and incredibly out of focus.

I'll mess with it some more and see if I can get it back to normal, once it has warmed up. But I think messing with the controls while it is warmed up will make the screen worse when it isn't warmed up.

I'll be heading over there later in the week.

I'll keep you posted...and thanks again for the guidance.

ed12 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 21, 2013, 01:04:56 am »

the machines takes a good 2 minutes to boot. At the very beginning, the picture is good, but as it warms up, the picture gets worse and worse, to the point it is unplayable, and incredibly out of focus.

I'll mess with it some more and see if I can get it back to normal, once it has warmed up. But I think messing with the controls while it is warmed up will make the screen worse when it isn't warmed up.

I'll be heading over there later in the week.

I'll keep you posted...and thanks again for the guidance.

now we are getting somewhere
it is not a mame so we can walk away from freq etc settings
once :warmed-up:
turn all controls counter-clock-wise
i will walk u from there

ed

Sarver Systems · « **Reply #21 on:** December 01, 2013, 11:27:43 pm »

I finally got this monitor recapped and a new flyback installed.

The picture looks great now.

But...

It shuts off after about 5 minutes.

I made ABSOLUTELY sure that I put each cap in the right position, and in the right orientation.
I made ABSOLUTELY sure that I put all the wires and harnesses back in the correct position.

Any ideas?

I am very good at soldering, so I seriously doubt I have a solder bridge anywhere.

jennifer · « **Reply #22 on:** December 02, 2013, 12:17:47 am »

Id start with the transistors, Stick you finger in there and see if one is hot... If not Id get a can of freeze spray and start checking components for thermal integerty.

lilshawn · « **Reply #23 on:** December 06, 2013, 08:08:42 pm »

check out the pins around the flyback transformer... you can get a hairline crack around a pin very easily. when it heats up it'll do weird stuff.

also check out/replace C713, C730. (both 4.7uF 25 volt) they will be around the sealed X-RAY protect adjustment. if these caps go out of whack, the B+ can shut down even though it's not high or not shut down when it does get high.

also check your b+ voltage, if it's creeping too high it'll shutdown too. (TP203 should be 152VDC with a non moving crosshatch pattern displayed.) a worn out main filter cap can cause the B+ to creep up as it heats up if the B+ has been adjusted up to compensate for a weak main filter cap.

adjust B+ only as a last resort, don't go tweaking it just yet.

Sarver Systems · « **Reply #24 on:** December 07, 2013, 12:29:42 pm »

B+ holds rock steady at 119VDC until it shuts down, at which point it shoots up to 190VDC (if I recall).

Almost all of the caps have been replaced, which is when this problem started.

My son will be with me today, so together we'll go through each and every one to make sure I have the correct value and orientation.

The capkit was installed along with a new flyback transformer, from Bob Roberts.

The only thing unusual about the whole capkit/flyback swap is that the NEW bipolar capacitor is quite a bit smaller than the old one, even though specs matched perfectly. Just to be sure, I put the old one back in. But it didn't matter, it still does the same thing.

I'm buying a digital IR thermometer today to test some parts. I'm just not sure what parts SHOULD heat up, and how hot they SHOULD get.

grantspain · « **Reply #25 on:** December 07, 2013, 06:22:38 pm »

in this situation i would isolate the flyback from the chassis and put a mains light bulb as a dummy load,then i would see what happens with the power supply voltages.
If they remain stable for 20 mins then you would then move onto the horizontal deflection circuit,check the HOT is correctly bolted to the heat shield and has conductive grease,check the high voltage poly caps on that circuit

lilshawn · « **Reply #26 on:** December 07, 2013, 11:12:59 pm »

Quote from: grantspain on December 07, 2013, 06:22:38 pm

in this situation i would isolate the flyback from the chassis and put a mains light bulb as a dummy load,then i would see what happens with the power supply voltages.
If they remain stable for 20 mins then you would then move onto the horizontal deflection circuit,check the HOT is correctly bolted to the heat shield and has conductive grease,check the high voltage poly caps on that circuit

yes, this is the next logical step. you metaphorically cut the chassis in half and you see if you have a problem with one side or the other. once you have that figured out which part it is, you've effectively eliminated 1/2 of the board as working. and 1/2 there is a problem with. you can focus on the part that doesn't

ed12 · « **Reply #27 on:** December 08, 2013, 12:50:02 am »

lilshawn
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Re: First post, go easy on me...please
« Reply #27 on: Yesterday at 11:12:59 pm »QuoteQuote from: grantspain on Yesterday at 06:22:38 pm
in this situation i would isolate the flyback from the chassis and put a mains light bulb as a dummy load,then i would see what happens with the power supply voltages.
If they remain stable for 20 mins then you would then move onto the horizontal deflection circuit,check the HOT is correctly bolted to the heat shield and has conductive grease,check the high voltage poly caps on that circuit

yes, this is the next logical step. you metaphorically cut the chassis in half and you see if you have a problem with one side or the other. once you have that figured out which part it is, you've effectively eliminated 1/2 of the board as working. and 1/2 there is a problem with. you can focus on the part that doesn'tReport to moderator Logged

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Re: First post, go easy on me...please
« Reply #26 on: Yesterday at 06:22:38 pm »Quotein this situation i would isolate the flyback from the chassis and put a mains light bulb as a dummy load,then i would see what happens with the power supply voltages.
If they remain stable for 20 mins then you would then move onto the horizontal deflection circuit,check the HOT is correctly bolted to the heat shield and has conductive grease,check the high voltage poly caps on that circuit

huh?
wait here

ed

Sarver Systems · « **Reply #28 on:** December 19, 2013, 02:13:09 pm »

I havent had a chance to work on this the last few weeks, but I was there yesterday, in a near 40° room, and the thing ran flawlessly. This is definitely a heat issue of some kind.

My son is getting me a digital IR thermometer for Christmas, so I'll probe around and see whats what.

buffett · « **Reply #29 on:** January 14, 2014, 12:21:10 am »

theses chassis suffer badly from cold solder joints.
go threw it and re-flow ALL the big parts and the transformers.

you will need to re-flow about half of the chassis.

also with the new batch of flybacks they put the chassis into shutdown from out of the box.
adjust your HV shutdown pot a little if after the re-flow it is still going into shutdown.

Peace
Buffett

Sarver Systems · « **Reply #30 on:** January 14, 2014, 07:33:39 am »

I've reflowed the connectors about 4 times now. I am certain, without a doubt, that its not a cold solder joint.

I am going to check that HV pot though.

jennifer · « **Reply #31 on:** January 14, 2014, 12:11:20 pm »

Let it get hot and shut down, then go around with a can of freeze spray, lightly spraying suspect items until the problem becomes self evident.

Sarver Systems · « **Reply #32 on:** January 14, 2014, 12:26:43 pm »

Once its off, it stays off.

It DOES run for quite a bit longer when its really cold out (its currently in an unheated space).

I have an IR thermometer, so I plan to use that to figure this thing out.

buffett · « **Reply #33 on:** January 14, 2014, 02:57:58 pm »

are you sere you got ALL the cold joints.
there are about 50 parts that need a re-flow on this chassis.

it is way more than just a couple pins/connectors on this chassis and it's brothers in the line.

Peace
Buffett

Sarver Systems · « **Reply #34 on:** January 14, 2014, 03:08:20 pm »

I started by reflowing all of the pin connectors.
Then I did all of the caps that I replaced.
Then I redid the flyback.
Then I reflowed all of the ICs and other parts... took me a few hours to hit them all.

No change. It still shuts off after a few minutes to about 1/2 hour of running.

I verified 3 times that all of the caps are the right value, replaced into the right locations, and with the right polarity. Only 1 cap was bipolar, so I didn't check that one. BUt I did put the old one back in since it was physically quite a bit bigger than the replacement.

buffett · « **Reply #35 on:** January 14, 2014, 03:29:32 pm »

mark the position of the HV shutdown pot and give it a little cleaning sweep and see if that fixes your issue.
same with the B+ pot.

the glue on them can eat them up and you will get a dead spot on them.

this has worked for me in the past on this chassis type.

plus like i said the new batch of flybacks is known for keeping the chassis in shutdown and the only fix is to tweak the HV shutdown pot a little.

Peace
Buffett

Sarver Systems · « **Reply #36 on:** January 14, 2014, 03:35:37 pm »

I'm gonna check that for sure.

I can tell you that my B+ voltage is dead on where it is supposed to be...if that helps. When the monitor shuts off, B+ goes high.

buffett · « **Reply #37 on:** January 14, 2014, 03:59:15 pm »

ok then for now i would not mess with the B+ pot.

look it over good and see what you find. i know this is redundant but you never know what mite catch your eye.

Peace
Buffett


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