Project Complete - 4 player Global VR style showcase gun cab - TopJimmyCooks

[TopJimmyCooks]

[SEE FINAL PICS IN POST 56-http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,134166.msg1410968.html#msg1410968]

/begin thread:
I have been working on and restoring pinball machines for the last year and haven't posted any Mame project stuff.  I picked up a commission from a pinball pal to build a nice 4 player + guns cab.  (no, I'm not accepting commissions, this is a special case, so calm down.)

I want to check on a few things with the board before I drop all the orders:

Display.  is there any reason not to use an inexpensive 37" big box 1080P LCD TV for the display?  60hz refresh, ?ms.  this is a casual gaming rig- nobody's going for high score comps here.   We'll probably be running HLSL.  Any murderous lag times or other issues to avoid?

PC:  I was going to set up a core I3 or pentium II with 2 or 4 gb ram, and Mobo with intel onboard graphics, XP.  Will I be ok with ALL the CHD gun games available in Mame?  Area 51, etc?  will HLSL work without a video card, or if not what's a good baseline card?  Are there any gun games that work better with an emulator besides mame? 

Guns: is the aimtrak recoil solenoid worth it at ~30$ each?  at that size and at low voltage it doesn't seem like it would do a whole lot. 

Is there a decent pre-made plastic holster that goes nicely with the aimtrak pistols? 

What's the current thinking on the best 8 way trigger stick for Mach 3, GLoc, etc. type games?  I'm not good with the small one from ultimarc or a big tron-ish deal. 

Thanks for your info and opinions.  I don't think the client will have any problem with a few build pics going up here. 

[BadMouth]

Display.  is there any reason not to use an inexpensive 37" big box 1080P LCD TV for the display?  60hz refresh, ?ms.  this is a casual gaming rig- nobody's going for high score comps here.   We'll probably be running HLSL.  Any murderous lag times or other issues to avoid?

Might as well steer clear of the worst ones:
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/input-lag
(I think there was a better chart linked somewhere, but I can't find it now)

37" is big.  I hope this is a showcase cab where you have some distance from it. 

PC:  I was going to set up a core I3 or pentium II with 2 or 4 gb ram, and Mobo with intel onboard graphics, XP.  Will I be ok with ALL the CHD gun games available in Mame?  Area 51, etc?  will HLSL work without a video card, or if not what's a good baseline card?  Are there any gun games that work better with an emulator besides mame? 

Pentium 2?!  CarnEvil is probably the most demanding one in MAME that will run on a reasonable system.  I've run it on a 2.8Ghz Athlon X2 with some sound skips.  3Ghz+ is more like it.  There are some positional gun games like Invasion that are more demanding, but they would require a pretty big jump in expense.  Throw in a reasonable video card and you could play the NAOMI ones using Demul 5.6 (one player anyway)

Guns: is the aimtrak recoil solenoid worth it at ~30$ each?  at that size and at low voltage it doesn't seem like it would do a whole lot. 

Haven't used them, but they take 24v, same as regular arcade guns.

[TopJimmyCooks]

37" is big.  I hope this is a showcase cab where you have some distance from it. 

We are leaning towards a showcase.  the original idea was something like dream home arcades but the difficulties with viewing distance have been conveyed.  Especially once the guns became part of the scope. 

PC:  I was going to set up a core I3 or pentium II with 2 or 4 gb ram, and Mobo with intel onboard graphics, XP.  Will I be ok with ALL the CHD gun games available in Mame?  Area 51, etc?  will HLSL work without a video card, or if not what's a good baseline card?  Are there any gun games that work better with an emulator besides mame? 

Pentium 2?!  CarnEvil is probably the most demanding one in MAME that will run on a reasonable system.  I've run it on a 2.8Ghz Athlon X2 with some sound skips.  3Ghz+ is more like it.  There are some positional gun games like Invasion that are more demanding, but they would require a pretty big jump in expense.  Throw in a reasonable video card and you could play the NAOMI ones using Demul 5.6 (one player anyway)

We are really trying to keep the thing easy to use/minimal tweaking and really want to stay in MAME rather than other emulators.  also, 2 player on the gun games that had 2 player is critical. 

what do we lose by not using Demul, gun game wise?  I'll do some looking at Demul - never have run it before. 

So would something like a core I3 3.1ghz turn the trick for carneval?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115078

Still ok with no vid card if we stay with Mame?

Thanks for the input.

Aimtraks- should have read the fine print - I thought they were 12V powered. 

[kahlid74]

Display: As Badmouth said, don't skimp too much but yes, you can go cheaper LCD tv

Computer: i3 or i5 if you want the most bang for your buck with the least compatibility/performance issues

Video Card: You need a video card - http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,112257.0.html - so yeah, get a cheap GeForce GTX 260 or something.

Same as Badmouth, it's got to be a showcase otherwise it will be way to big and you'll be too close and it'll feel weird.  Trust me, I've seen that before.

[BadMouth]

So would something like a core I3 3.1ghz turn the trick for carneval?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115078

I don't have any experience with the I3, but I would think it would outperform the Athlon X2's of equal or slower speeds that I've used.
MAME is optimized for Intel by default.  That one should be fine.

Demul Light gun games:

Ranger Mission
Confidential Mission
Extreme Hunting
Extreme Hunting 2
House of the Dead 2
Lupin the Third
Maze of the Kings
Sport Shooting USA (crashes after calibration for me)
Death Crimson OX

For XP, you'd have to stick with Demul 5.6
I forgot it had issues with going fullscreen.
Here's my workaround: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,108239.msg1148537.html#msg1148537
I'd understand if you just wanted to skip it rather than mess with this stuff and explain to them that only P1 works on certain games.
HOTD2 is pretty tempting despite the worst voice acting ever.

[TopJimmyCooks]

Compelling reason to go win 7 for a newer version of Demul?  I want to work with something that's well documented and well understood and that Badmouth has already written all the scripts for.   I tried to read the Demul faq but it's in russian. 

[Maximus]

You can't really get much better bang for your buck than a Sandybridge Celeron at 2.6ghz, $49 with free shipping, don't be fooled by the Celeron name, this ain't yer Grandma's Celeron. It's a 22nm processor with 2mb of L3 Cache. I use this in the Revolution cab.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116889

[BadMouth]

You can't really get much better bang for your buck than a Sandybridge Celeron at 2.6ghz, $49 with free shipping, don't be fooled by the Celeron name, this ain't yer Grandma's Celeron. It's a 22nm processor with 2mb of L3 Cache. I use this in the Revolution cab.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116889

Does it run CarnEvil without sound skips?

[Maximus]

no idea, I can give it a test and report back this evening.

[TopJimmyCooks]

Thanks for that Max, carnevil is definitely on the menu.   I put $120 in the budget for processor but I could sure use some back if it's not needed.  Nothing's been bought or fabbed and we're already well over budget.   

[thrasherx]

If you're still in the market for an inexpensive monitor, might I recommend a "TCL" brand LED LCD from Amazon.com?  I picked up a 39" for my cabinet.  Supposedly, they're using Samsung panels.  I paid around $329 for it. 

[BadMouth]

If you're still in the market for an inexpensive monitor, might I recommend a "TCL" brand LED LCD from Amazon.com?  I picked up a 39" for my cabinet.  Supposedly, they're using Samsung panels.  I paid around $329 for it.

Danger Will Robinson!!
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57587317-221/game-mode-on-cnet-tests-tvs-for-input-lag/

Not sure if one model TCL is different from the next, but I'd check into the lag time before buying.

[TopJimmyCooks]

We're going to try an inexpensive panel - westinghouse.  I'll set it up and if it stinks I'll take it back to best buy and find something where the input lag has been tested.  I think it may be ok.  it has a game mode and does not do a lot of video processing onboard. 

Heres a poser:

any preference for XP64 or win 7 home 64?  I dont' really care, just want max compatibility with Demul/supermodel.

[BadMouth]

Compelling reason to go win 7 for a newer version of Demul?

Eh, depends on whether you're going to drop the money on a faster processor & video card.
Any version of Demul will be useless without at least a mid-grade video card.
You also mentioned wanting to run HLSL.  That requires a video card that supports it.
Supermodel requires a decent card.  Bart recommended a 460.  It's running on my driving cab with an old 8600GT.
I wouldn't go any lower.
 

It would be a shame to spend the money on Win7, but then find out that the processor & video card aren't up to the task anyway.
The only game I was excited about which was added after 5.6 was Metal Slug 6, but in all honesty it's just more of the same.

If I were doing this build and trying to keep costs down, I'd use an old copy of XP (if I had it) and spend the OS money on a faster processor and mid-grade NVidia video card so it could run the Taito Type X fighting games.(NVidia because some Radeon cards have issues that can't be fixed when it comes to the Taito Type X games)  The primary reason I'd focus on those is that most of them are widescreen and would utilize the whole screen.  Since they aren't being emulated, the required specs aren't that demanding.

If I weren't so worried about keeping costs down, I'd use Win7 and make sure the specs were good enough to run new pc games like Mortal Kombat Komplete, SSFIVAE, SFxTekken.  King of Fighters XIII is coming out soon (Taito Type X version already "out").  Again, utilizing all the real estate on that big hi-def widescreen.  I'm running MKK at 720p with all the video options turned to low and it still looks gorgeous to me.

[Maximus]

Thanks for that Max, carnevil is definitely on the menu.   I put $120 in the budget for processor but I could sure use some back if it's not needed.  Nothing's been bought or fabbed and we're already well over budget.

Forgot to do this last night. I just put a calendar event in my phone to do it tonight so I don't forget (the old brain cells dont fire too good in the evenings).

[TopJimmyCooks]

budget is not the primary concern.  I just want to make sure everything works without wasting capacity in one area or the other.  Sounds like Xp is the way to go.  The client doesn't care so much about fighting games but I would like to make sure as much widescreen stuff as possible runs for the reason you said.  We will be running a 650 or better vid card and I am definitely an nvidia man. 

I've got those type x games stashed somewhere, this will be a good time to check them out. 

looks like about $1500 worth of tasty pc and arcade components are getting ordered tonight    I'm stoked about the build because I rarely do stuff where the budget is so flexible.  This is going to be a mame rig to be proud of. 

[Maximus]

Tries to test carnevil but I don't have the chd. Sorry.

[TopJimmyCooks]

No prob' ordered a smoking set of PC parts yesterday.  However if it doesn't run carneval on max frame rate it is your fault.

Sent from my semaphore flags using Tapatalk 2

[BadMouth]

<--- doesn't think a 2.6Ghz processor has any chance of running CarnEvil full speed, nor Demul or Supermodel.

[TopJimmyCooks]

3.4 ghz ivy bridge
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116773

GTX 650 vid
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127701

Hopefully no trouble.  Can't RMA the processor but otherwise, if it doesn't cut the mustard it's going back.  Thoughts?  I know you're not a big intel guy. 

[kahlid74]

3.4 ghz ivy bridge
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116773

GTX 650 vid
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127701

Hopefully no trouble.  Can't RMA the processor but otherwise, if it doesn't cut the mustard it's going back.  Thoughts?  I know you're not a big intel guy.

You'll have no issue.

[BadMouth]

3.4 ghz ivy bridge
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116773

GTX 650 vid
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127701

Hopefully no trouble.  Can't RMA the processor but otherwise, if it doesn't cut the mustard it's going back.  Thoughts?  I know you're not a big intel guy.

Excellent choice. 
I don't think you'll have any issues running CarnEvil, Demul, or Supermodel.

I've used AMDs in all my builds because they were the best price for performance option at the time.
The next one (if I ever have the spare cash) will be more focused on performance and use an Intel.

Not sure if this will be an issue since you're using a newer video card, but I updated to the newest NVidia drivers and performance on Demul & MAME took a huge dive.  Reverted to an older driver and games are all running full speed again.  So if they don't run full speed, try some older video drivers.

[TopJimmyCooks]

Good info, I'll try the latest versions but will check out the earlier versions if any problems/lag/frame drop issues pop up.  I appreciate the help and I'm sure I'll need to lean on you guys more due to my inexperience with non-mame emulators. 

I'm normally super value conscious as well, but too chicken to stray from the intel borg.  Switchcade has a $30 recycled pc in it. However, the end user wanted to make sure the pc didn't hold the rig back in any way.   

[TopJimmyCooks]

Nothing juicy to picture yet but the pc is setup.  Runs everything nicely.  I've enjoyed seeing some stuff I've never seen before in Mame - like any 3D game. 

Hyperspin/emulators/art/videos are at 90%.  xml cleanup and custom genre wheel setup is at about 5%.  the controls and various remaining parts are all bought coming in gradually. 

Artwork is about 60% done.  will post some on this when it's done.  it's not a theme I would have chosen for myself but it's cool and turned out well.  all will be revealed. 

Intro video - soundtrack is 90% done.  Need to start on the vid part. 

Next post will have more visual appeal. 

[Nephasth]

Nothing juicy to picture yet but the pc is setup. 

Black Rose is juicy!

[TopJimmyCooks]

Unfortunately that juicyness belongs to my brother, just holding it until christmas.  I shopped it out and am currently playing the [insert euphemism for exuberant intercourse] out of it.

there might be enough info in that picture to tell what game is behind BR as well, mr. eagle eyes. 

[Nephasth]

there might be enough info in that picture to tell what game is behind BR as well, mr. eagle eyes.

Nope, my pin-fu is weak.

But I spy, with my little eye, a box of Cheez-its!

[thatpurplestuff]

Unfortunately that juicyness belongs to my brother, just holding it until christmas.  I shopped it out and am currently playing the [insert euphemism for exuberant intercourse] out of it.

there might be enough info in that picture to tell what game is behind BR as well, mr. eagle eyes.

Haha I was about to write about how insanely jealous I was that you have a Black Rose!  I don't own any pins (yet!) but Black Rose is probably in my top 5 wishlist.

[thatpurplestuff]

Unfortunately that juicyness belongs to my brother, just holding it until christmas.  I shopped it out and am currently playing the [insert euphemism for exuberant intercourse] out of it.

there might be enough info in that picture to tell what game is behind BR as well, mr. eagle eyes.

And possession is 9/10ths of the law, so you might consider telling your brother that he's out of luck when Christmas comes around. 

[TopJimmyCooks]

alright you arcade cab hugging weenies- here's my best pinball porn.  Six 100% working games and one basket case (black knight, not pictured).

and a box of Cheez it for Nep.    how could you tell they were there from the first picture?  smell?  they are not in the picture.

[Nephasth]

and a box of Cheez it for Nep.    how could you tell they were there from the first picture?  smell?  they are not in the picture.

Reflection in the glass on Black Rose. And now I can see that Solar Fire is next to it... need to work on that pin-fu...

[TopJimmyCooks]

 i looked at the pic looking for cheez its for two minutes and didn't see that.   remind me not to play where's waldo with you.

[jmike]

i looked at the pic looking for cheez its for two minutes and didn't see that.   remind me not to play where's waldo with you.

  he got me too. Darn you Nep.

Getting all the software done early is the right way to go. That way when the build is done all you have to do is plug it in. Of course that's not what I do. 

[TopJimmyCooks]

[TopJimmyCooks]

Aimtrak holster-sketch attached below.  simple so I can cut it out with a zizz wheel and brake it in a 3" vice.  Otherwise its $30 each plus ship for the Happ optical submachine gun holster.  It's a perfect fit for the gun but it's a bottom mount and I need a side mount. 

EDIT: Pic of the final result.  I still need to final sand and spray a final coat but they turned out very nicely. 

[BadMouth]

Is the dark colored section below the monitor anything?  2nd monitor?

Now that you've had a taste of the newer games, is Switchcade going to get an upgrade?

[TopJimmyCooks]

Is the dark colored section below the monitor anything?  2nd monitor?

Speakers behind a mesh grill.  the woofer goes in the opening in the back.

Now that you've had a taste of the newer games, is Switchcade going to get an upgrade?

No switchcade upgrades planned. But I did break down and buy the same video card for my main PC to get it up to the same spec's as this rig.  I'll ghost the HS setup onto my machine so I can poke around with it.  maybe get a gamepad or two and play around with PSX/dreamcast etc.   

The aimtraks are super tempting but switchcade's 19" monitor is too small for guns, and the $300 price tag (incl recoil and power supply for recoil.) is just too steep.  I'm going to enjoy these while they're still here though. 

[TopJimmyCooks]

two and a half sheets of mdf broken down.  (only one of the sides is shown).




completed the main cab.  complicated glue up so I glued four sub assemblies first, then laid out and cut biscuit slots.  the sub assemblies reduce the amount of aligning and fiddling needed, and the biscuits help keep everything lined up the way you want it, and add some strength. 

I used a ton of pocket screws.  no MDF is edge screwed in this project. 


next few days:  the CP, side feet and the monitor holder section. 

[TopJimmyCooks]

Even a total badass such as myself messes it up sometimes: 

[BadMouth]

Random tip on these newer 3D emulators -
If you have an Nvidia card, enabling "Single Monitor Performance Mode" in the global options of the NVidia software can get you a little more oomph.  On the PC I'm setting up now, it was the difference between having constant sound skips in crazy taxy(demul) and having none.
It is set for dual monitors by default, even if only one is connected.