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Author Topic: Big spots appear when viewing white for any period of time  (Read 6070 times)

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TheShaner

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Big spots appear when viewing white for any period of time
« on: July 23, 2012, 03:09:59 pm »
I have a Makvision 27"2929d.  When I am playing most games it is fine.  However, If I am viewing a white background, such as a windows xp window, and it sits there for any period of time (like 2 minutes plus) it will start to get two big darker spots on it.  When I close that window, where the two big spots are have changed in color, from the green background I had to a blueish one.  The longer that white background was up will determine just how blue it gets.  After that, if I let it sit on the green background for a minute or two, it will reverse itself and all of the colors will go back to normal.  Any idea what that might be?

lilshawn

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Re: Big spots appear when viewing white for any period of time
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2012, 10:53:22 pm »
your screen volts/brightness are too high. You are cooking the shadow mask/aperture grill and causing it to deform... this causes the color to shift as the aperture shifts and the beam hits a different color.. turn down the screen on the flyback...you don't want it bright bright white anyways.

What it is is that the high beam current hits the shadow mask of the picture tube. The shadow mask heats up and "bends" this is called doming. Depebding on the tube and the material used for the shadow mask it may apppear worse than others. For example an invar shadow mask will absorb the heat better and dome less.
Only fix here is to reduce the brightness and or contrast.

MonMotha

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Re: Big spots appear when viewing white for any period of time
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2012, 11:04:55 pm »
My experience with other monitors is that not only is the brightness (and rarely screen/G2) too high from the factory, but, even worse, the contrast is cranked out of this world.  This usually causes really nasty blooming, and I guess from the description could certainly lead to this effect.  You do probably need to turn brightness (and maybe screen) down some - adjust it to where a gray ramp has about the bottom 5-10% appearing the same ("totally black").  Once you've got that closeish, adjust contrast to a reasonable level (something that isn't cooking your tube).  You may have to iterate between the two adjustments some since it's apparently wildly off.

I have no idea why they ship these things this hot.  I guess the "brightness wars" from the television market is still rearing its ugly head in the arcade monitor market despite the decline in CRT availability.  Regardless, adjusting these things correctly will not only make them look and behave better, but it will also drastically increase the lifespan of the tube and prevent burn.

TheShaner

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Re: Big spots appear when viewing white for any period of time
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2012, 11:40:09 pm »
Awesome guys, thanks for the help.  Its always nice to have an easy fix.

omehegan

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Re: Big spots appear when viewing white for any period of time
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2012, 04:29:56 pm »
I have this same monitor, and the same problem. Just bought the monitor new from Xgaming. I emailed their support, but thought I would post here too.

I tried messing with the brightness and contrast, but it didn't seem to make much difference. Can anyone give me some more detailed suggestions for troubleshooting? What does "turn down the screen" mean? I've only looked at the on-screen calibration menu controls.

lilshawn

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Re: Big spots appear when viewing white for any period of time
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2012, 05:52:33 pm »
screen as in the high voltage adjustment on the flyback.

AKA: "screen volts"

the flyback has 2 adjustments "screen" and "focus".

TheShaner

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Re: Big spots appear when viewing white for any period of time
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2012, 10:59:40 am »
Cool thanks Shawn, I will try that out today and see if it makes a difference.


mamenewb100

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Re: Big spots appear when viewing white for any period of time
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2012, 07:17:33 pm »
screen as in the high voltage adjustment on the flyback.

AKA: "screen volts"

the flyback has 2 adjustments "screen" and "focus".

I also have the same issue with the screen occasionally turning very purple on some parts of the screen when viewing white backgrounds. I noticed this right when I bought it a couple months ago and even heard others describing the same thing. But stupidly I just lived with it until now hoping it wasn't a problem. I've noticed it effects the colors slightly in games as well, you just don't notice it as much, as a white background.

Anyway I tried adjusting the Screen knob and it did seem to not be as bad now. Picture and colors looks a ton better with it not being as bright. I have it turned down as low as it can be without being to dark. But I can still see a slight hue in the bottom right of the screen.

Is there anything else where you can adjust voltage, or is there maybe a different issue?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 07:19:16 pm by mamenewb100 »
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MonMotha

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Re: Big spots appear when viewing white for any period of time
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2012, 07:59:14 pm »
In addition to turning down the screen control on the flyback, also turn down CONTRAST (on the remote board or in the OSD).

I still can't believe they're shipping them THIS hot...  In general, it sounds like they're shipping them so wrong that you may as well just run the full adjustment procedure on them including screen, brightness, contrast, gains, and cut-offs.

omehegan

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Re: Big spots appear when viewing white for any period of time
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2012, 08:23:01 pm »
In addition to turning down the screen control on the flyback, also turn down CONTRAST (on the remote board or in the OSD).

I still can't believe they're shipping them THIS hot...  In general, it sounds like they're shipping them so wrong that you may as well just run the full adjustment procedure on them including screen, brightness, contrast, gains, and cut-offs.

I'd love to find a step by step procedure for calibrating this monitor, or even just CRTs in general. I'm used to PC CRTs (even though it's been 7 years since I last used one), which usually just require a little bit of fiddling with the OSD. I haven't messed with the screen or focus settings on my Makvision, but I spent a BUNCH of time fiddling with the OSD trying to get the image *straight* and didn't make much improvement. I guess it doesn't matter that much in the games, it just looks weird when the Windows desktop is showing :)

lilshawn

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Re: Big spots appear when viewing white for any period of time
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2012, 08:27:49 pm »
yeah i don't know why, but they send them cranked to the nuts. it's no wonder the tubes start  to fail after only a few years.

mamenewb100

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Re: Big spots appear when viewing white for any period of time
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2012, 08:47:44 pm »
When I turn the screen knob I can actually hear the voltage changing, so it must be doing something. The screen hue is not as bad in windows but still there. On the other hand so far I haven't noticed anything in the games. Crossing my fingers.

I'm assuming the darker you can go on the screen knob, the lower the voltage? I have it setup so the contrast is near 100 on the OSD, yet lowest brightness possible on the screen voltage knob, to run the games the way they should look. I'm assuming that is the proper way to do it. I find that the picture just doesn't look right without the brightness being set near half of the contrast.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 08:53:08 pm by mamenewb100 »
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lilshawn

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Re: Big spots appear when viewing white for any period of time
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2012, 11:10:16 pm »
no contrast should be down. contrast way up is bad, and it looks bad.

do it this way:

check your red/green/blue with a gradient... they should be equal (drop off at the same point) if not, adjust colors to match.

set the contrast  to about 50% and brightness maybe 75 at most.

turn the screen up until blacks are gray then down until the blacks JUST turn black.

you should be pretty close. tweak the brightness and contrast a little BUT KEEP IT OFF OF MAXIMUM!!!!!

 Take note...it's not going to be blindingly bright or super sharp colors bla bla bla high res bla bla bla... Your eyes have been burned with the super bright plasma and LCD displays of today's HD technology, you need to step back...realize that THIS is the way games where meant to be played. This isn't a computer monitor, this isn't a high def display, this isn't going to look like your LCD computer monitor...why...because it isn't.

cranking stuff up to make an arcade monitor look the same as your computer screen is only going to shorten your monitors life. Extremely high voltages present when displaying super saturated bright colors on the screen cause VERY localized heating and can permanently distort the shadow mask/aperture grill of the tube causing colors to become unpure (photons destined for a single pixel splatter into the shadow mask and hit adjacent pixels causing the colors to shift due to mixing) no amount of adjustments will fix a warped shadow mask/aperture grill.


mamenewb100

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Re: Big spots appear when viewing white for any period of time
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2012, 11:29:53 pm »
edit
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 12:13:30 am by mamenewb100 »
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MonMotha

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Re: Big spots appear when viewing white for any period of time
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2012, 11:31:38 pm »
Honestly, they pull crazy tricks to get plasma and especially LCD to look "super bright", too.  If you adjust them correctly and disable all the dynamic black tricks (that don't work on lots of common images anyway), you end up with something comparable in luminosity to a decent CRT.  Heck, the CRT will often have better contrast.

As a note, the controls on your TVs and arcade monitors are hilariously misnamed.  The reason is largely historic.  Here's what you need to know:

CONTRAST is what you probably think of as "brightness".  This controls how "hard" the tube is driven at a given input signal.  In other words, if you turn this up, "fully white" gets brighter.  This control doesn't have a ton of effect on black level.  The ideal point for this control is where "100% white" is reasonably bright but not causing blooming, heat distortion of the shadow mask/aperture grille, etc.  Such a setting is somewhat subjective - I tend to set mine a bit dimmer than many - but there's definitely "too high" and "too low" settings that are obvious.  If you call up a gray ramp, you should be able to tell the difference between the top 5% and next 5% down of the bar.

In general, this should never be above 75% if you're feeding it proper signal levels, though it does depend on how your color gains have been set.

BRIGHTNESS is what you would probably call "gray level".  This controls how dark the tube is allowed to get.  The ideal setting is of course "as dark as it can go", but you don't want the monitor to display dark gray as fully black.  The ideal point for this control is easily determined using a gray ramp.  About the bottom 10-20% of the ramp should appear identically black.

In general, I find that, on most monitors, 25-50% is correct.  It will depend on how the screen control is set (see below).

SCREEN is actually adjusting the voltage on the second tube grid (aka G2 and called "screen" because it literally screens out some of the electrons as they fly from the neck of the tube to the front).  This is an incredibly coarse control that has an effect somewhat similar to brightness.  If this control is too high, you'll get "retrace lines".  If it's too low, the picture will be very dim (especially dark gray/black) even with brightness turned all the way up.  The ideal point for this control can generally be found by turning brightness all the way down, displaying a black picture (or no signal), turning the screen control down until the picture is completely black, then displaying a gray ramp and setting brightness as above.  If you arrive at somewhere between 25-75% on the brightness knob, your screen control is reasonably set.  There's normally no need for a user to adjust the screen control unless the monitor is very old or was never properly adjusted at the factory.

GAIN aka DRIVE is basically like contrast but for just a single color primary (red, green, blue).  You can use a RGBW ramp pattern to set these along the same lines as contrast.

CUT-OFF aka BIAS is basically like brightness but for just a single color primary (red, green, blue).  You can use a RGBW ramp pattern to set these along the same lines as brightness.

There's usually some iteration required between all of the controls to "dial in" the picture if it's way off (which it sounds like these are from the factory).  If everything starts out pretty close, you can probably just adjust brightness/contrast and call it good.


If you need to do a full tweak up, the order is as follows:

Adjust SCREEN as documented.
Set brightness and contrast to 50%.  Adjust RGB drive/cut-off as documented.
Adjust brightness/contrast to perfection (note that gain/cut-off is often pretty coarse).
Adjust geometry (height, width, position, pincushion, etc.).

mamenewb100

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Re: Big spots appear when viewing white for any period of time
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2012, 12:11:37 am »
no contrast should be down. contrast way up is bad, and it looks bad.
You misunderstood me. I don't want it to be bright like an LCD screen. I'm not one of the kids that doesn't know what good blacks look like. What I was asking is if turning the Screen knob to make it brighter/darker was directly related to increased voltage. From your response it sounds like it doesn't make a difference whether you do it on the OSD or the screen knob, if it is the same brightness. I had the Contrast on max in the OSD, only because the Screen knob was set really dark. Normally I had it set on 50 or so.

As for the brightness/contrast, I guess my settings are backwards. I need to recalibrate it.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 12:20:29 am by mamenewb100 »
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MonMotha

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Re: Big spots appear when viewing white for any period of time
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2012, 12:27:58 am »
Contrast and screen adjust completely different things.  I think you've got that, now.

The screen control does directly adjust the voltage applied to the second grid of the tube.  It's typically ~600V and on the black wire coming out of the flyback and running up to the neckboard.  The other wires coming out of the flyback will be the focus line (usually gray or the small red wire) and the anode (big red wire going to the "suction cup").  Focus is typically a few thousand volts, and the anode is of course the evil wire at ~25kV for a typical 25-29" tube.

The brightness control doesn't operate quite this way, though the end result looks somewhat similar.  What it does is shift the signals being applied to the cathodes so that the cathodes have more current always flowing through them, even when there's none of that color desired.  How this is accomplished varies with design, but it's not just a pin right on the tube.  Turning this up too high causes the cathodes to always be conducting enough current to fling electrons at the face of the tube, so you end up with some of that color (or gray, if all three) always being present, even when feeding black or no signal in.

The contrast control determines how much gain is applied from the input signal to the actual cathode current.  The higher contrast is set, the bigger the gain and therefore the bigger the difference between black and white (which is why they called it contrast).  Cranking this up will certainly make the picture brighter, but of course there's a limit to what the tube can take.

omehegan

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Re: Big spots appear when viewing white for any period of time
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2012, 12:54:28 pm »
Maybe someone should make this thread sticky, since these Makvision CRTs are the only new ones you can get now. This is good info for surprised new owners like me.

Dawgz Rule

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Re: Big spots appear when viewing white for any period of time
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2012, 06:03:14 pm »
Quote
Maybe someone should make this thread sticky, since these Makvision CRTs are the only new ones you can get now. This is good info for surprised new owners like me.

Agreed!  I was having similar issues and tech support was pretty useless on this one.  Degaussing did seem to help for brief periods but after some adjustments, I am free of splotches.  Thank you everyone!

lilshawn

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Re: Big spots appear when viewing white for any period of time
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2012, 06:53:20 pm »
Maybe someone should make this thread sticky, since these Makvision CRTs are the only new ones you can get now. This is good info for surprised new owners like me.

all CRT's are pretty much done. there will always be scragglers. you may even find someone who is pulling tubes from old TV's and throwing universal chassis on them.

omehegan

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Re: Big spots appear when viewing white for any period of time
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2012, 10:40:00 pm »
Those of you who made adjustments to your Makvision CRT... where are the knobs/pots? Mine is mounted in my cab, and I took the back off and poked my head in there but I couldn't see any obvious controls to adjust. A picture would be awesome...

lilshawn

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Re: Big spots appear when viewing white for any period of time
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2012, 06:50:46 pm »
there are really no knobs to speak of, i't all done through the control panel and the on screen display. The screen adjustment i mentioned earlier is on the high voltage transformer.



there are 2 adjustments, the screen on the bottom (which adjusts the high voltage going out to the screen) and the focus at the top...that...focuses.

some have 3 adjustments - 2 focus and 1 screen.



same thing the bottom is the screen and the top 2 adjust the focus

infoleather

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Re: Big spots appear when viewing white for any period of time
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2012, 02:17:28 am »
Degaussing seems to be short-term help, but after some adjustments, I spotted.