I'm looking for a theatre display again.....

[ChadTower]

I'm not talking about technology advances or image quality.  I'm talking about basic hardware and firmware quality.  A high end TV should have HDMI firmware without bugs, period.  To have contol sync issues in the main interface for a high end TV is inexcusable.  That WEGA's HDMI firmware is awful.  Then we get to the basic manufacturing quality of the projector itself, which lasted about 2.5 years, and one of the three LCD lenses warped in about 3 years.  That's just inexcusable for what is supposed to be a very high end product.

And you can say "RPTV was a flawed concept to begin with" but nobody knew that at the time.  How many reports are there of LCDs having to be replaced within 2-3 years?  Plasmas too?  The build quality is just garbage these days compared to 20 years ago across all of the modern TV types.  There is every reason to believe these TVs won't last many years because too high a percentage of them are already dead.  I wouldn't mind that if they were in the same price range as TVs 20 years ago but they aren't.  (The equivalent of) $1500 televisions barely even existed 20 years ago and now that seems to be the baseline consumer expectation.  I go to someone's house and the first thing they want to show me is their $2200 television.  Somehow the market has shifted to far higher cost and far less reliability and people are proud of that.  It boggles my mind.

[shmokes]

I wonder if the problem with the HDMI on that set isn't maybe the hardware, rather than the firmware. When that TV was purchased, I'll bet HDMI was not being used by much of anything. Perhaps that set has HDMI 1.0, or even a non-standard HDMI (sort of like Pre-N wireless routers). Shrug.

At any rate, I think you're pretty safe right now buying a television. Contrary to what your salesperson said, it's not really much of a gamble. LCD and Plasma are both totally solid (though I think the Plasma will have diminished brightness 10 years from now, unless that's no longer applicable). The only questionable tech at the moment is 3D, which isn't standardized across manufacturers and may not be supported with content in the long term. But the extra cost for 3D is pretty negligible. Also it's a pretty stupid feature. So you can easily take it or leave it.

[ChadTower]

Not being standardized across manufacturers is what you just said was possibly the issue with HDMI on the WEGA.  Why would I want to consider 3D while it's in a similar state of flux?

There are so many reports out there of TVs needing replacement within 18 months that I see no reason to believe it's totally solid.  There are basic financial principles at work here.  Increased cost + increased risk = decreased value. 

[shmokes]

Why would I want to consider 3D while it's in a similar state of flux?

Because of this:

. . . the extra cost for 3D is pretty negligible. Also it's a pretty stupid feature. So you can easily take it or leave it.

Granted, if 3D is something that is actually important to you (my gut tells me that it isn't), and you think that it's a feature that will see wide support instead of fading away as a fad, then maybe it's better to hold off a year or two to see what happens.

[ChadTower]

Granted, if 3D is something that is actually important to you (my gut tells me that it isn't), and you think that it's a feature that will see wide support instead of fading away as a fad, then maybe it's better to hold off a year or two to see what happens.

You're right, 3D doesn't matter to me.  I spent 20 minutes last night watching a $4500 3D display last night.  It's nice, I suppose, but if the $4500 TV didn't move me then the stuff they put into a normal consumer level TV sure won't.

[Vigo]

The 3d Panny TV I just bought was $700. The same brand non-3d tv of the same size/resolution was $650 and was not network ready. Getting the 3D one was a no brainer in my case. I wanted direct streaming, so I was willing to pay the extra $50 anyway.

[AtomSmasher]

It's not just an extra button press. It's an extra button press on an extra remote. And it's probably a super unintuitive remote because they almost all are. Moreover, you don't just have to turn on the power. You also need to select inputs and other things as well. Anyway, you'll notice that I didn't say I would never buy a projector. I said that for me, right now, living in an apartment rather than a house, a big TV makes more sense. When I have a house and can make the effort to control everything with a Harmony using IR blasters or RF, I think it very likely that I'll seriously consider a projector.

Just thought I'd mention that IR bounces off of the projector screen or wall, so in general you don't need an IR blaster.  My projector works great with my Harmony remote when I point the remote towards the front of the room, even though my projector is on the ceiling in the back of the room.

[ark_ader]

Buy yourself a cheap projector and a decent supply of bulbs (3) and it will be the best purchase for a home cinema.  I'd stay away from the IM2 C3X Lumis 3D-S and get yourself a Acer H5360BD as it does 3D and the price is pretty much a steal.  The replacement bulbs are really cheap too.  I just have an old Sanyo which I use on occasion that does the job with XGA resolution.

Great with the Topgun and Xbox House of the Dead.   

[shmokes]

The #1 reason by a country mile to own a projector is Ikaruga. At least the GameCube version has an option in settings for a vertical screen, which is pretty well useless with the typical TV screen, but with a projector it's a simple thing to get 7' vertical feet of Ikaruga on the wall. And it is amazing.

[ChadTower]

Buy yourself a cheap projector and a decent supply of bulbs (3) and it will be the best purchase for a home cinema.  I'd stay away from the IM2 C3X Lumis 3D-S and get yourself a Acer H5360BD as it does 3D and the price is pretty much a steal.  The replacement bulbs are really cheap too.  I just have an old Sanyo which I use on occasion that does the job with XGA resolution.

Great with the Topgun and Xbox House of the Dead.   

Worth considering, for sure, at $520 shipped.

[ChadTower]

...or maybe not...

Using BluRay 3D as an example... in addition to the display device you'd also have to upgrade your BluRay player to a 3D capable unit... upgrade your HDMI cable for a 1.4 capable cable... upgrade your AV receiver because even if it's fairly new it's not going to be HDMI 1.4 capable... and then a pair of active shutter glasses for each person in the house plus any regular guests like Grandma.  All for a small handful of channels on DirecTV and a small but increasing number of 3D movies on BluRay.

It may be possible to upgrade some BluRay players to 3D capable via firmware upgrades IF they have the juice for HDMI 1.4.  Yeah, I know the PS3 counts here, but I'm not interested in a $300 optical player.

All of that while the standards and tech are still evolving much like the aforementioned RPTVs and the early resolutions (720, then 1080, etc).


So, 3D is still not really all that worthwhile, at least to me.  But at $520 for the projector does position itself strongly as a 2D HD projector as well.

[shmokes]

FWIW, no need to upgrade your receiver to support HDMI 1.4. It'd be nice, of course . . . cleaner. But everything would work just as well without. HDMI directly from BluRay to projector, digital audio back to your current receiver. For that matter, it occurs to me that my complaint regarding IR blasters and Harmony remotes is probably also a much smaller issue than I suggested for the same reason. Power and inputs can often be controlled over HDMI, so you can just tell your projector to turn on and off automatically, and switch to the appropriate input, based on the signal coming over the HDMI cable. I can do this my TV which is quite a few years old now. So I assume that newer devices, using a newer HDMI spec, no less, generally have the same capability.

Edit: a good illustration of this concept, actually, is my setup. I have a very nice receiver, but unfortunately I purchased it JUST before HDMI switching became a feature on mainstream receivers. So my receiver has no HDMI ports. I lose absolutely nothing as a result of this, except for initial simplicity during setup. But my current setup works exactly the same as it would if my receiver had HDMI ports on it. My TV has four HDMI inputs, so all HDMI devices are plugged directly into the TV. A TOS/Link cable then runs from the Audio Out on my TV back to my receiver. Everything is perfectly seamless. My TV gets the proper HDMI video feed. My receiver gets the proper DTS or Dolby surround feed.

[ChadTower]

One thing I did spend money on is a nice Harmon Kardon AV receiver.  Lots of inputs, lots of power, etc.  Of course, it started to fail 24 months after I bought it, and today all of the digital inputs are dead as is all digital processing of analog inputs.  So now all the expensive AV receiver can do is straight two channel and even then only to the satellites.  

[drventure]

Of course, it started to fail 24 months after I bought it, and today all of the digital inputs are dead as is all digital processing of analog inputs.  So now all the expensive AV receiver can do is straight two channel and even then only to the satellites.   

Wow. that's surprising in an HK. I'd always thought they had a pretty strong rep.

I ended up with the high end Onkyo about a year and a half ago. Really like it so far, so I guess we'll see what kind of longevity it has.

Do you have your audio/video gear on any power conditioners/surge protectors?

[shmokes]

At least it looks nice on your component shelf. Harmon Kardon makes a beautiful chassis.  

[ChadTower]

Wow. that's surprising in an HK. I'd always thought they had a pretty strong rep.

I ended up with the high end Onkyo about a year and a half ago. Really like it so far, so I guess we'll see what kind of longevity it has.

Do you have your audio/video gear on any power conditioners/surge protectors?

Just some low end surge protectors.  I wouldn't expect them to do much.  I'm not sure how a surge would get through the power supply, through the main board, through the "daughterboard connector to the digital board", to the digital processing board.  I think an AC surge would have blown something in the power supply or the main board.  This isn't the first time I've had something blow a "digital processing board".  Back in the day I had two Panasonic set top DVD recorders blow their encoder boards, and of course, when brought in for repair the model had been discontinued (replacement parts unavailable) even though they were under a year old.

I have really, really, really bad luck with home theater stuff.  It doesn't matter if I buy cheap or expensive.  It fails fast.  The only things I have bought in the last ten years that hasn't been quick failures is the two cheapo Olevia LCDs I have.

[shmokes]

Who are you, and what did you do with this guy?

The ironic part of that is that the receiver is generally the thing that'll last 20 years.  Of all of the parts to replace in a home theater the receiver is usually the one rock solid part that doesn't need swapping.  I have a GE receiver from the mid 60s that can still blow the windows out.  Yeah, no processed modes, but who cares when you can feel the bass in your colon?

[ChadTower]

Who are you, and what did you do with this guy?

The ironic part of that is that the receiver is generally the thing that'll last 20 years.  Of all of the parts to replace in a home theater the receiver is usually the one rock solid part that doesn't need swapping.  I have a GE receiver from the mid 60s that can still blow the windows out.  Yeah, no processed modes, but who cares when you can feel the bass in your colon?

Generally.  Sadly, not for me.  That's the stereo in my son's room.  I used it for like 15 years until I "upgraded" to an entry level Sony AV receiver.  I "upgraded" that maybe 5 years ago to the HK that is now marginally functional.  Trust me, if there were a way to do 5.1 on that GE, I would do it in a heartbeat.  It sounds better and has more power than either of the other two.

[shponglefan]

Wow. that's surprising in an HK. I'd always thought they had a pretty strong rep.

I ended up with the high end Onkyo about a year and a half ago.  Really like it so far, so I guess we'll see what kind of longevity it has.

HK used to have a good rep, but it's gone downhill in the last decade or so (their QC has apparently gone to poop).  Onkyo, Denon or Yamaha are the front-runners for HT receivers these days.

[ChadTower]

That seems about right from my experience.  My HK has been one issue after another.  I'm not even sure I want to bother trying to get it fixed at this point but I'm too cheap and too burned to invest again.

When I was talking earlier it was based on my experiences with older receivers.  They usually work well no matter how old they are.  How many older people do you know with a receiver they bought in the 70s that still works well?  I seriously doubt anything made now will still be working in 20 years.  That just doesn't happen anymore.

[Dawgz Rule]

Love my HK reciever and speakers.  My wife, however, does not.  Sad to hear that they have slipped in quality. 

[Gray_Area]

I love the idea of not having to use a PC to interface, but most of my content is self-storage based

I'm looking at a plasma that doesn't have a PC input. What's the issue with DVI to HDMI?

[ark_ader]

The PS3 BR player is 3D compatible. 

[shmokes]

I love the idea of not having to use a PC to interface, but most of my content is self-storage based

I'm looking at a plasma that doesn't have a PC input. What's the issue with DVI to HDMI?

DVI to HDMI doesn't pass audio, which can be a non-issue in many many situations. But HDMI is a standard port on PCs now, and has been for some time. If you don't have it, it can be had on very inexpensive, low-end graphics cards.

[ChadTower]

The PS3 BR player is 3D compatible. 

To me the PS3 is just a way overpriced BR player with a lot of features I don't want. 

[shmokes]

It's also a videogame console.

[Vigo]

Video games? Pshaw! That's one of those unwanted features.

[ChadTower]

It's also a videogame console.

That's included in the list of features I don't want enough to pay extra.  I haven't turned on a game console for more than ten minutes in 2012.

[Gray_Area]

I love the idea of not having to use a PC to interface, but most of my content is self-storage based

I'm looking at a plasma that doesn't have a PC input. What's the issue with DVI to HDMI?

DVI to HDMI doesn't pass audio, which can be a non-issue in many many situations. But HDMI is a standard port on PCs now, and has been for some time. If you don't have it, it can be had on very inexpensive, low-end graphics cards.

I was looking at that. The PC is a 'desktop', meaning low form factor. I saw cards on ebay that were DVI, as well as having an HDMI port. I was sort of looking for PNP when I got the display home (I'm going to look at it tomorrow night). VGA>VGA to DVI adapter>DVI to HDMI cable>TV wouldn't work?

[testicle187]

http://www.epson.com/alf_upload/pdfs/projectors/brochure_475wi-480i-485wi.pdf?BV_UseBVCookie=yes

I put the Epson 485wi projectors in classrooms at work quite often recently.  They may only be 1280x800 but they are very bright and have amazing picture.  Instant on/off with no warm up or cool down.  We actually install them to a light switch.  They make a 100ish inch screen from about 12" inches back (and can go larger within reason).  These are interactive Smartboards as well that two people can draw. 

I think they cost us around $2000 each, but they would make a nice home theater projector and eliminate most complaints people have about projectors.  Plus Epson bulbs are cheap and get a lot of hours on the bulb.   

[Ond]

At the moment I'm spending almost all my spare time upgrading our home theatre (thus my lack of progress on anything else).  While you guys are busy debating the ins and outs of HDMI versions etc the sawdust is flying around me  . I probably won't add much to the debate but here are some thoughts anyway.   I've been looking at home theatre stuff for well, many years, in fact long before there ever was such a thing except in the home of the super rich.  Back in the 80's I worked in television studio production and had access to the best video projectors the industry could produce in the day.  They were primarily large and very heavy CRT projection units that cost as much as a family home.  Sometimes we set these up for stadium events, rock concerts or the like. That's where my interest kicked off.  I had to wait years and years until the home user market finally had access to 'affordable' projectors.  There was still no sign of digital audio amps, DVDs etc. 

For a one of my birthdays (I forget which  ) I hired a big ass Sony CRT unit (which retailed at around AU$60K) for the weekend), a laser disc player and a stack of movies for a few mates and the family.  The picture on the 8 foot screen was pretty damn good.  Affordable projectors to buy with that kind of quality were still way off in the future.  Every now and then I'd wander into a specialist outlet and say to the guy "so, show me your best projector, show me what you've got" and walk away soon after muttering "nup, still no good".

Fast forward to the last 8 years or so and all that changed, units like the Panasonic AE series finally brought quality home theatre images to the home for around AU$2-3K.
That same price can get you stunning 1080P images on 100"+ screens now.  There's no real comparison with a large screen and matching sound system.  I say that as an owner of a 50" 3D Samsung TV.  When our family wants to really enjoy a film together we head for the big screen room.  We don't use it for video gaming or TV or anything else just something like the latest action flick at thundering decibels in a darkened room.
 
Some of the real changes I’ve seen  are more around the digital format, the switch from component video and discreet optical audio to HDMI.  Actually I do have something of value to add and that’s about, cables.  Don’t get ripped off with your cable purchases.  Cable sales and the ridiculous pricing that goes with that is one of the most lucrative money makers in the retail HT market.  When I first wired up my house during construction I was quoted around AU$1200 for a 10 metre Component Cable.  I bought the same cable of the reel at a wholesaler and fitted my own gold plated plugs for 1/10th of that price.  Same story with a 10 metre HDMI ver.1.4 cable I just bought.  Did my research and got it from a cable wholesaler at a fraction of the price the retail outlets fleece people for.  Super high performance digital cables are a lie, the only difference is in how robust the plug head is, that’s it.  Trust Ond.
If anyone’s interested I recommend Denon gear for amps blu ray players etc.  The units I bought 4 or so years ago are running strong and without any issues.

So I’m off to feed this 10 metre HDMI cable through the wall and back to sawing, screwing     

[drventure]

Actually I do have something of value to add and that’s about, cables.  Don’t get ripped off with your cable purchases.  Cable sales and the ridiculous pricing that goes with that is one of the most lucrative money makers in the retail HT market.

ahofle found a great deal on a 6foot hdmi cable a while back

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=109951.msg1164039#msg1164039

 

I picked up a 50' model for 15$ off ebay, it runs all the way around the room, from the av gear in front, to the projector on the wall behind. Picked up a 50' power cord too, so all my gear, including the projector can be plugged into a UPS/surge protector.

For .28% the price of that cable, I'd say the one I got works pretty dang good  

[Gray_Area]

digital cables are a lie, the only difference is in how robust the plug head is, that’s it.  Trust Ond.

So I’m off to feed this 10 metre HDMI cable through the wall and back to sawing, screwing    

I would get a screwing in between things, too.  Yeah, the cable thing seems to be universal - I see it on guitar forums, etc - the physics is simple, a well-made cable means good though simple construction methods and using good though inexpensive materials.

[saint]

If you're not buying your cables from monoprice.com, you're paying too much as a rule (though that ebay deal was a score).

[ChadTower]

If you're not buying your cables from monoprice.com, you're paying too much as a rule (though that ebay deal was a score).

When installing the WDTVs I had to buy a bunch of HDMI cables.  Monoprice was more than twice the price of Amazon once you factored in shipping.  Monoprice isn't all that great for small orders.  Shipping is often more than the total in your cart.

[nickbuol]

If you're not buying your cables from monoprice.com, you're paying too much as a rule (though that ebay deal was a score).

+1,000,000

EDIT: Long post deleted because I couldn't clearly communicate that a large projection setup can be awesome without having to spend a ton.  It came across just wrong.

[nickbuol]

Crap.  I sound like a pompous ass.  I didn't mean to.  

Pompous long post removed. Sorry.  PM me if you ever want to read it. LOL

[AtomSmasher]

If you're not buying your cables from monoprice.com, you're paying too much as a rule (though that ebay deal was a score).

When installing the WDTVs I had to buy a bunch of HDMI cables.  Monoprice was more than twice the price of Amazon once you factored in shipping.  Monoprice isn't all that great for small orders.  Shipping is often more than the total in your cart.

This is probably because I'm located about two hours away from their warehouse, but I've never had a shipping cost over $5 from them (usually it's around $3), even when I ordered 30 cables.

[saint]

Crap.  I sound like a pompous ass.  I didn't mean to. 

Yeah, mission accomplished.  You'll fit right in this thread, though.

Don't hate on him because he's right PBJ. Everyone has their own needs, no doubt, but all things being equal you can't beat the full blown 100+" home projector experience.

[ChadTower]

I put two HDMI cables at $3.50 each into my cart and the shipping was $7.  The same cables were $3.50 shipped on Amazon.  

Monoprice is awesome for a lot of things but you can beat it for small orders.