Please help (again). WMS Stargate Defender "Adjustment Failure" error

[vinito]

I posted this in my other thread on the power supply, but thought it might be better in a new thread. Whole new problem, etc.
There are a few pictures of my repair job thus far there.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=119475.0

As I get closer to getting it working, things are getting more elusive.
I got the power supply rebuilt and did a decent job repairing the corrosion on the MPU, unless the new problem is there somewhere of course.
I finally have the game booting up, but some strangeness still has to be ironed out.

If I leave it off for a while, when I turn it on I get a RAM error. It seems to be a different number every time. I've got 1-1-1, 1-1-7, 1-2-6, 1-2-4, 1-3-4, 1-3-6 just since I've been keeping track.
If I don't leave it off for long, then turn it off and back on (or push the reset button) then every once in a while it will come up with a different RAM error, but most of the time it will just go to zero and boot up with no RAM errors - "0" on the led.
There's a door plunger switch near the cash box. It has been "hacked" to stay closed. If I leave it that way, it just boots up (when it passes the RAM test) and skips the "Adjustment Failure" message and goes to the game over screen, but then I can't access the setup mode. With the switch open, it boots up to the "Adjustment Failure" "Door Open" etc. message. But leaving the coin door open and turning off & back on does nothing different, i.e. "factory resets" are not restored, but rather the same "Adjustment Failure" message comes up every time. However, I can get into the setup/audit mode kind of. It gives the basic audits, then pushing the advance button again goes to a screen which has the text (and only the text) "EXTRA SHIP EVERY" along the top left hand, but a kind of blippy block of short lines of varying colors kind of flashes from left to right and slowly scrolls up the screen. So strange video there - a kind of partial game adjustments screen but then that strange flashing/scrolling line thing.

The odd thing to me is, if you let it boot up, the game will play and the video looks pretty good. All the controls work and you can play through the levels, but it starts with a ton of lives and smart bombs - way more than 10. (when cash box switch is closed on boot-up)

So part of it works and part of it doesn't. The RAM errors vary greatly and go away if you hit reset once or twice, and the Adjustment Failure message is consistent as long as the cash box switch is open and won't reset to factory settings. Then there is the strange video once you enter into setup mode.  If the cash box switch is closed, it will boot up and let you play a game with superman settings.

Anybody have any ideas?
I've read up a little and some folks seem to find a backup battery problem, some find CMOS problems, one found a couple other problems.
I can solder and understand a little electronics, but not much. I took an electronics logic class about 25 years ago, but it's pretty buried in the fog these days.
I'm a machinist and good with mechanical stuff, but I really don't know where to start to troubleshoot this.

Help is welcome. Please!   

And by the way, booting with batteries connected or not seems to make zero difference.

[smartbomb2084]

I gotta give you serious applause for swapping out 24 RAM sockets and for the general effort you are putting in this game.

 

Your new problem is likely CMOS RAM or battery related.

With the game off and batteries installed look for battery voltage at pin 18 of CMOS RAM 5114 at location 1C.

[vinito]

Thanks !
Yea, the socket replacement was pretty time-consuming. Especially since I wrestled through 2/3 of them with a tip that was too big & worn out, plus the nozzle on my desoldering gun was half clogged and vacuum was low. I haven't used it enough to know how it's supposed to work, especially lately. Anyway, I cleaned it up and found a smaller tip and it went much batter after that, though still a ton of pads to deal with of course, plus having to go back and clean up quite a bit of the previous work.

I checked the voltage at C1 pin 18. It is 4.3V. The voltage direct off the battery pack is 4.7V. I wouldn't know how to check if the chip is working correctly or fried or whatever. Is it probably a bad CMOS chip or could it be something else?

Also, I noticed this board has what they call a "CMOS MOD. ASSY BOARD" (the little daughter board at 6D). Does that have anything to do with the other CMOS and could there be a problem there? I just see "CMOS" without really knowing what it does and wonder if they are related at all.

[vinito]

Aw crap! crap crap crap!!!

Just being curious I decided to unplug the little daughter board and take a look at it. Well fumble-fingers let it get out of control just as it was almost out and I bent two legs on the 14-pin connector on the daughter board. They're nice little gold plate pins and slip into a nice little machined socket. Well in the process of straightening the pins out, one of them broke off.  

I might try to kludge something together and make it work, but in case I can't think of a good way to do that, what do you even call that little connector so I can buy a replacement if I have to?



(edit to add): OK I learned (I think) it's called a "DIP header". Bet it ain't easy to find. Maybe I can just rig something to work....

(edit once more to add): OK I figured it out. No big deal. I begrudgingly replaced the cool little socket and broken DIP header with a standard female header strip on the main board and some gold-plated header pin strips I've got in my stash for the daughter board. Whew! I was kind of freaking out. Just had to settle down and think for a second. I knew there had to be a simple solution.

Back in business


Returning to the problem at hand...
By the way, there was nothing to see on the daughter board. Should have just let it be. At least it was a source of excitement for a bit.

[smartbomb2084]

Yeah you should have left it alone...

Sometimes too much effort is bad and doing nothing is better especially when we are unsure of what to do.

Here is a link to some troubleshooting data that probably came direct from Williams 'back in the day'.

http://www.vidpin.com/tech/starrob_recap.pdf

Information no self disrespecting tech should be without....

[vinito]

OK According to the flowchart, I have adequate voltage at pin 18 on 1C so it says to replace it.
I found a 6514 chip for $5 including shipping so I pulled the trigger on it. Should it be a direct replacement for the 5114? It's listed in the schematic BOM (as an alternative I assume). I would have just got another 5114 but didn't see those for less than $5 + shipping (another $5 at least).

Also, I was browsing eBay last night and found a WMS REV-B board for $20 so I pulled the trigger on that too. I figure it might be a backup plan or good for parts. For that price I figured it wouldn't hurt other than the bucks. Maybe being the "newer" board it might be in better shape to begin with. I hate to see the socket/corrosion repair in my rear-view mirror as a waste of effort, on the other hand I just want to get this thing working right too so...

By the way, thanks for the link. I was surfing last night and ran across it and saved it, but I didn't think I was ready to look at it yet so just put it on the back burner. So I probably wouldn't have looked at it if you hadn't mentioned it. At first I was all shook up because it looked like it was getting into probing logic. I don't own a logic probe and I'm sure there's a little learning curve just learning how to use it, plus I don't know how much knowledge about logic a guy needs to know before diving in so would need a decent chunk of time (to say the least) before I learned anything, or would need someone to hold my hand and step through it. It does look like the troubleshooting guide kind of does that, but I don't know. At any rate, I figured I'd be looking at a serious delay in progress if I had (have?) to go down that road. I'd at least have to try it for a while first before I had any confidence at all. Maybe someday...

In case it matters, I do have a decent oscilloscope (which I also don't know how to use very well - have piddled with some pretty basic stuff). And also have a little oscilloscope I built from a kit, partly for the fun of the kit and also in case it might be useful being so portable. So those are at my disposal in case you have any troubleshooting advice which would require either and wonder "If he only had a....".

Here's the kit I got. The thing actually seems to work surprisingly well for what it is. I got it somewhere else, but this is the same kit:
http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9484

[smartbomb2084]

Let's see... you obviously have no fear about swapping out sockets but are scared stiff about using a logic probe?

A logic probe is easy to use... it is just that sometimes it can be misleading... using an oscilloscope and KNOWING THE WAVEFORM to look for at a given test point is key.

These T-Shooting charts dumb it down so the average guy can use the probe and actually have success.

You can't give up just yet... That REV B board you got off of Ebay is getting lost in the mail.

[vinito]

Hehe. You must know where I live.

Yea I've been told logic probes are no big deal. But I've just never had the call to use one so it's all the mysterious ether to me at this point.
A friend of mine is a pretty good electronics hobbyist and helps me out sometimes. I haven't talked to him in a while so maybe asking to borrow his logic probe if he has one would be a good excuse to get in touch again. Hey, don't go hatin' - nobody calls me unless they need help either.

I'll take a look at the flowchart and see if I can get a handle on checking things out. If it's dumbed down enough, then that's probably just what I need. Looks like I'll have a few days of waiting on parts to do a little research. Just have to squeeze it in between the garage rebuild project. Seems like I always have too many irons in the fire.

(Edit to add): OK since I'm on this blasted buying spree, I went ahead and ordered what looks like a decent little inexpensive logic probe. So there !  
I usually ask around and get advice, but from what I understand, logic probes aren't as high-falootin' as multimeters or scopes etc. Spec's are decent and reviews seem favorable. The estimated arrival is Friday, so if that's the case it will suit my impatience just fine.
Here's what I bought. Let me know if I screwed up.
http://www.elenco.com/product/productdetails/logic_probes_&_pulsers=NjQ=/logic_probe=MjQ4


Also, I figured out that I could open up a PDF with Gimp and chop a page up to print and reassemble the pieces with tape. So now I have a nice, clear, big schematic to go by. That might help a bit.

[smartbomb2084]

It should be just fine.

Even better than getting this game fixed is that hopefully we learn something along the way so even if it doesn't get fixed it is not a total loss.

[vinito]

Thanks.
I have run across folks using logic probes on forums and such to troubleshoot things, so kind of wanted to get one and learn how it's used. It's kind of cool how the troubleshooting guide appears to walk you through in a pretty simple way so it ought to be a good thing on which to get my big toe wet.

Also, this whole project has reinvigorated my interest in electronics a bit again and I'm looking forward to continuing after I get this thing going to learn more on some other stuff.

Funny how things work sometimes - this whole thing, as well as the desire to get the ball bowler working too, stems from simply wanting to get some bulky things out of my house so I can have some elbow room again. My electronics "bench" is currently in a corner of my living room and once I get these machines out of the basement the plan is to move it down where the new space gets created. So I have the fun of working on getting the machine running (I like this kind of stuff), the fun of playing the games, the relief of making space, the fun of making the family happy with a new game room at my Mom's house, and probably a lot nicer electronics bench and work area after I move it. Not a bad set of circumstances.

Well enough rambling.
More to come.

[vinito]

I received the 6514 chip today, so I removed the 5114 and installed a socket there.
After inserting the 6514, the game kind of runs a little better, but there's still some work to go.
It still wants to give a RAM error on first power up. Not the same one, just as before.
The "Adjustment Failure" message still comes up, but above it says the bookkeeping and high scores reset message, so that's a little better.
Subsequent power ups do not clear the "Adjustment Failure" message, and the bookkeeping and high score reset message goes away. If I removed the CMOS chip and power up, then re-install the CMOS chip and power up again, the bookkeeping/high score reset message appears again. Hmmm.

Also, I can get into the settings screen. It no longer reads just the "EXTRA SHIP EVERY" and the glitchy lines, but rather the whole screen shows up. However, it won't let me change anything. I can scroll up and down but the fire and thrust buttons don't change any values. I'm certain those buttons work fine because you can play a game and also you can see the screen flicker a bit while in setting mode if you push them to attempt to change values, but the values seem locked.

So tomorrow the logic probe is supposed to arrive and if it does I'll work my way through the flow chart and see if I can glean any new information.
The new Rev. B board arrived today too. It is in slightly better condition than my original board was, but there is still evidence of corrosion and I'm not sure how useful it will be. If I hit a dead end, I'll swap the RAM and other socketed chips into it and see if it works. For now I intend to stick with trying to get my original board to work properly, and if nothing else, maybe there are some good chips on the Rev. B board which could replace a bad chip or few on the original board or vice-versa. I guess if none of that works out, I could get a huge proto board and attempt to wire-wrap a whole new CPU  

[smartbomb2084]

Are you able to access the dagnostic menu with the coin door buttons now?

You still have some kind of CMOS or Memory Protect problem.  Double check your work maybe you have an open trace.

[vinito]

Yes I am now able to access the diagnostics menu (what I was calling "settings"?) with the coin door buttons. The pages come up and I can scroll through them with the coin door buttons, and the up/dn joystick allows me to scroll the cursor around, but all the values are locked and won't change when the fire/thrust buttons are pushed. Actually I can enter letters - where it asks to enter a name, I can scroll through the characters and enter letters, but it won't let me escape out of it. Also, when in the attract mode message screen, the joystick scrolls through a couple letters but not the whole alphabet anymore.
Things aren't right yet, but still, a small measure of improvement. Hopefully we're getting closer.

So yea I kind of see that it's probably still a CMOS and/or memory protect problem.
I'll take a closer look later today.
The 6514 chip is a pin-for-pin substitution for a 5114 correct? If not, that may be part of my problem.

Any thoughts on what would cause my odd, rotating RAM errors when the machine is turned on cold but go away (on successive boot-up) after it's been on for a minute or two?

[smartbomb2084]

Not the Adjustment Menu.

The TEST Menu, accessed as explained on page 9 of the STAGATE Instruction Manual.

Has this been done?

[vinito]

OK.
Yes I am now able to access the test menu. I get this result:

ROM test passed.
RAM test passed.
CMOS RAM test failed and brought up the message:
           CMOS RAM ERROR
     OR WRITE PROTECT FAILURE
-FRONT DOOR MUST BE OPEN FOR TEST-

And of course the front door was open.

I went ahead and went through the successive tests.
On the sound test, it just repeatedly did "SOUND LINE 1" and didn't move on to the other 4 sounds. in game play all the sounds seem OK though so I don't think there's a problem with the sound board.
On the switch test, all switches are registering correctly.
On the Color RAM and Monitor Test Patterns, everything appears to check out fine with no glitches.
The last step on page 10 is to put it into "AUTO CYCLE" by scrolling down to it on the game adjustments page 2. I can scroll down to that line, but as before, in the game adjustments mode, the fire and thrust buttons do nothing so I can't start it through the Auto Cycle. Recall that the thrust and fire buttons work fine in the switch test.

So that's the info so far. Seems like probably a write protect failure? The high scores aren't garbled or anything and on a cold boot after battery is disconnected) the screen indicates high scores and factory resets have been restored, followed by the "ADJUSTMENT FAILURE" message. With battery connected, successive boot-ups skip the "... restored" message and only show the "ADJUSTMENT FAILURE" message.

I received the logic probe today, so if that tool will help I've got one to use now.
I was looking over this post at another forum: http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=153406. It kind of walks a guy through some things. His solution ended up being RAM and once it was replaced, he was fixed. My case has a different problem I guess. But maybe that post along with the troubleshooting flow chart can walk me with probe in hand and find the problem.
Please feel free to offer suggestions. I can read some and try to figure out where to start, but someone holding my hand at the beginning wouldn't hurt. Remember I've never tried this tool before.

Thanks again.

[smartbomb2084]

Disconnect the INTERLOCK Switch directly from the CPU board at 1J2.

This way we don't have to worry about the coin door being open or closed.

Run the TESTs again and if we still get an 'Open Coin Door' Message during CMOS TEST then the Memory Protect circuit on the board is bad. This seems likely since the game's previous owner had it wired permenantly closed.

There is a flowchart to help you track it down...

[vinito]

I did as you suggested today. Seems to be the same whether that is connected or not.

Today I keep getting a "RAM ERROR 16". I got some extra RAM and tried switching that one out, but it keeps coming up.
I've also got a RAM 11 and RAM 23 errors too, but those only came up once. 16 has come up several times now.
I'll take the board out and make sure my soldering was OK. Otherwise, some help probing around would be welcome. I'll look at the flowchart too.

By the way, the RAM errors are only coming up in the diagnostics mode. There is no boot-up RAM errors except about every 5 tries and those seem to be 13 and 17 for whatever reason. It's intermittent, other than 16 coming up a lot in the diagnostics mode. I hate intermittent !!!

Edit to add:
The Rev-B board is no help. I put all the ram into it and soldered the battery in. Then found some missing (corroded) traces so fixed that and replaced all the header pins. No go.
Getting the 1-3-1 error and a solid yellow screen. Bleh. I guess I have a few spare parts with it, but that's it.

[smartbomb2084]

Check that MEMORY PROTECT circuit .... 6E,  IC1,  Q1.

[smartbomb2084]

How about an update on this Odyssey.... Where have you gone?

We hope everything is okay in life otherwise...

[vinito]

Sorry man. I work at a power plant and it's been nuts lately getting the thing back up and running for a while. I'm plumb wore out and haven't had the gumption to look at the game.
However, I did receive the logic probe so I'm tooled up to start investigating. I'll be doing that as soon as things get "regular" again, which should be this weekend if not before.

So thanks for the concern. Everything is OK other than maybe my back and knuckles argue with me lately

[smartbomb2084]

Glad to hear all is OK and it is just Life getting in the way.

I have had several personal conversations with Life about interfering with fixing our games but it just refuses to listen.

 

[vinito]

Just thought I'd make a quick post to show one of the distractions keeping me from working on the game.

I'm a machinist by trade and used to do production on a lot of different CNC machines. Now I work in maintenance and it's all manual machines, so I used some of those machines to build this little CNC mill for myself. Except for the scavenged motors and a few bearings, pulleys and a ton of screws, I scratch-built every piece of the thing from materials from the scrap pile. It took a couple months to make the parts. I bought a new stepper driver and it arrived so I couldn't help myself from getting it working with it.

Just have to get the spindle spinning right and I'll be able to actually use the thing pretty soon.

So now that it's this far, I may be returning to the Stargate pretty soon.

Here's a short video of my machine taken earlier today:

[boardjunkie]

Recap the regulator board.