Aynone know anything about Antenna television?

[markronz]

So I recently cancelled my cable TV.  I got tired of pay $80 a month.  My plan now is to use an antenna for TV, and  few WD Live Plus players to fill the gap.  I can stream netflix and hulu, and I have an old PC with a TV tuner card in it that I plan to use as a DVR for broadcast TV.  The stuff I record will then be put onto a shared network drive in house, which my WD Live player can reach and stream those shows.   I think between all those things, I should barely miss cable.  Anyway, I've got the majority of this stuff set up.  The part I am trying to do now is to set up the outside antenna and have the signal sent to all the TV's in my house, and I have a few questions.

First some more information about my setup.
- I have 5 TV's, and one dual TV tuner card in my computer.
- This is the report about the TV signal in my area.  Looks like all my local channels are pretty much 15 miles or closer to me.
- I just bought this antenna which seems like it should have plenty enough range to get all the above channels.
- Some of my TV's are new enough that they have a built in tuner, and others are older, and I have converter boxes for those.


This is what I am still trying to figure out...
1. Is there a splitter to accomodate such a large number of devices? Or would I have to do some sort of chain thing with like a 2 way splitter followed by two 4 way splitters?
2. Is there anything else that I would need? Like any kind of amplifier because I have so many devices or anything else?

Anyone on here happen to know anything about this stuff?  Just thought I'd post it just in case!

[HaRuMaN]

I've done basically the same thing, except I had Directv.

I have an antenna, and have split it two ways.

My TV in the livingroom needed an amplifier, but the one in the bedroom did not.

I don't miss Directv at all...   

[HaRuMaN]

8 way splitter @ monoprice:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10422&cs_id=1042206&p_id=8218&seq=1&format=2

[Samstag]

With an antenna that size and stations within 15 miles you can probably get away with splitters located wherever it's most convenient.  I have a much smaller antenna mounted in my attic that's split into 4 signals with no amplification and I pick up over 50 local stations.

I use windows media center as my DVR, which saves files in a format most media players can't handle, but I use a couple of xbox 360s as media centers rather than running the antenna signal to all my rooms.  

[markronz]

I plan to use Windows Media Center too, which I assumed just records in WMV format.   I think the WD Live Plus player can play WMV's, but I'm not positive.  I guess I will have to see when I get to that point.   I did anticipate some futzing around with everything to get it how I wanted.

Thanks for the link Haruman.   Do you know if using a single splitter is at all beneficial to doing a daisy chain type deal (with a two way splitter, and then 2 four way splitters)?    The reason I ask is that I have those other splitters already.  I just didn't know if an 8 way splitter would be better, or doesn't it matter?

One other question.   About that radar picture (attached) from the TV Fool report that I linked.   Should I read it that most of my stations are south?  And hence I should be aiming my antenna south?

[kahlid74]

I would strongly recommend an amplifier for that many devices.

As far as one big splitter or a daisy chain of splitters it comes down to the loss suffered.  If you look on the splitter it will tell you the dB lost when splitting the signal.  So the loss for multiple 2 or 4 way splitters would be the same as a 8 way EXCEPT for the additional loss for the connecting cords.  So each additional cord introduced gives a slight loss even if they are insulated.  So a large 8 way splitter that is HIGH in quality would be the preferred choice.

The benefit however of a group of smaller splitters however is that you can amplify only the ones you want.  So if you have three devices that are fine you can then amplify the other two without amplifying the three that are good.  I have seen amplifiers on a very rare occasion mess up the signal on a TV but that was going from the wall to am amplifier to a cable box so my guess is the cable box and the amplifier were not happy.

[yaksplat]

Media center records in either dvr-ms or wtv formats.  They are basically a mpeg2 file.  You can easily run conversions to mp4 so the source will work everywhere else.  Keep in mind that an hour long show may be 9 gigs.

If you are using media center through an xbox 360 or on a htpc, be sure to look into media browser.  It's an excellent program that has a far superior presentation layer than the out of the box media center.

[markronz]

Ok, I'm not entirely sure where amplifiers or pre-amplifiers wire into my overall set up yet.  Like if they would go between my one original cable and the splitters, or somewhere in between, or what.  But if anyone has any they could recommend, or any splitters that are of high quality they could recommend that would be great.   For now I guess I am going to wire up just the antenna and play around with it.   Like start with 2 TV's, and if that works, split it to 4 tv's and etc.

[markronz]

Media center records in either dvr-ms or wtv formats.  They are basically a mpeg2 file.  You can easily run conversions to mp4 so the source will work everywhere else.  Keep in mind that an hour long show may be 9 gigs.

If you are using media center through an xbox 360 or on a htpc, be sure to look into media browser.  It's an excellent program that has a far superior presentation layer than the out of the box media center.

Thank you I will definitely give that a looksie once I get acceptable signal everywhere.

[kahlid74]

Ok, I'm not entirely sure where amplifiers or pre-amplifiers wire into my overall set up yet.  Like if they would go between my one original cable and the splitters, or somewhere in between, or what.  But if anyone has any they could recommend, or any splitters that are of high quality they could recommend that would be great.   For now I guess I am going to wire up just the antenna and play around with it.   Like start with 2 TV's, and if that works, split it to 4 tv's and etc.

This is more related to you trying it out.  If you were going to use an 8-way splitter I would go Antenna --> Amplifier --> 8Way Splitter.  If you were going to do smaller splitters you could do something like Antenna --> Two way Splitter --> (1st Split) goes to Main Room TV -- (2nd Split) goes to Amplifier --> 4 way splitter

So it really depends on how it looks on your TV.  The amplifier "shouldn't" make the signal on your TV look bad but you can always try it.

Smaller splitters might be better so you can amplify after you've split it a time or two.

[MonMotha]

In general, you run a "link budget" for each run.  You can add up the dB loss from each split (it's almost always listed on the splitter, and sometimes not all ports are the same, which you can use to your advantage when doing multiple splits) and you try to make it about the same on each run.  Then get an amp at your antenna, if needed, and adjust it so that all your tuners are happy.

Mind you, the cable is also lossy, but if they're all "about the same length", it evens out.

If it's unavoidable to have very uneven path losses, you may end up overloading the receiver front end on some in order to get a strong enough signal for the others.  This is worse in the US, and especially in cities, due to multipath.  European DVB uses a different modulation scheme that doesn't cover as big of an area, but it resists multipath.  If you have that problem, you can just drop an attenuator right in front of the hookup to the TV experiencing the overload.

[upprc04]

For you guys using WMC to record TV and XBOX360s as extenders, have you had any problems with it all of a sudden getting disconnected from the Media Center PC?  Or is there things to do to optimize the connection between Windows 7 Media Center PC and XBox?  I watch a show for a little while and then it will just drop and I'll have to reconnect.  I have both the media center PC and XBox360 wired to a 100mbit switch.  I have tried googling, but no luck so far.  It works well sometimes and then sometimes it will keep dropping every couple of minutes.  I'm not doing too much else on the network (other computers/phones are off, not playing any online games, surfing the net, etc.)

[Samstag]

I had disconnects when I first set mine up and it was the xbox at fault.  Once I took it out of the system I've had solid connections for the past 6 months or so.

In your case it could be the xbox, switch, or PC causing the disconnects.  I'd try watching video streamed from the internet to the xbox and PC to see if you can isolate the problem.

[upprc04]

I had disconnects when I first set mine up and it was the xbox at fault.  Once I took it out of the system I've had solid connections for the past 6 months or so.

In your case it could be the xbox, switch, or PC causing the disconnects.  I'd try watching video streamed from the internet to the xbox and PC to see if you can isolate the problem.

It must be the Xbox, because PC works fine.  So do you not have any extenders now?  Or what do you mean by taking the xbox out of the system?  All the video I'm watching is on my local network (XBox media extender watching videos from Windows 7 Media Center PC).

[MonMotha]

No contest in the performance between a converter box and a TV with a digital tuner built in.  The built in tuner is MUCH better.  Adding a second TV upstairs actually boosted the performance on the living room TV a little, too.

Oddly, my little converter boxes do a MUCH better job pulling in marginal signals (mostly contaminated with multipath rather than a pure SNR issue) than the built in tuner on my Samsung plasma.  Now, the output of the box isn't HD, but it often works flawlessly when the Samsung just plain gives up.  Apparently the box I have (the old coupon eligible one from Fry's) is well known for having a surprisingly good ATSC demod while Samsung uses crap stuff.

Now, the old PCI ATSC tuner card I got back in ~2004...that thing needs a darn near perfect signal to work properly.

[Samstag]

I had disconnects when I first set mine up and it was the xbox at fault.  Once I took it out of the system I've had solid connections for the past 6 months or so.

In your case it could be the xbox, switch, or PC causing the disconnects.  I'd try watching video streamed from the internet to the xbox and PC to see if you can isolate the problem.

It must be the Xbox, because PC works fine.  So do you not have any extenders now?  Or what do you mean by taking the xbox out of the system?  All the video I'm watching is on my local network (XBox media extender watching videos from Windows 7 Media Center PC).

Sorry I meant that the xbox with the problem just happened to be the one I was testing the system with.  I had 2 others so I set them up and they're the ones that have been working great for 6 months.

[hyiu]

yeah, with that many splits, use an amp.

I use this one...
Motorola Signal Booster 484095-001-00 Bi-Directional RF Amplifier by Motorola
you can find it on amazon or other places...

for using amp, you need the cable to come from the antenna, then go to the amp, before getting split up.

But do not split it up and amp the weak signal... (as then you're also amplifying the noise).

if you use like an 8 way splitter and only plug in 4 wires, you would want to spend a few bucks and get a terminator
something like this...
http://www.elitedeals.com/pta-eastr8026zb.html?productid=pta-eastr8026zb&channelid=FROOG&gclid=CICF_uLl9q4CFYNx4AodnnZswA

from like radioshack... its cheap...

this should cap the split end that is not used, and not let the signal degrade...
(at least I think that's what I read somewhere.... )

[kahlid74]

So what we're all saying here is there's no simple answer to exactly what you need but we all agree splitting it that many ways is going to require an amp to some degree and it's best to amp the source to prevent amplifying the bad stuff.  You can get as technical as you want with it if you're interested or you can just buy some splitters/amp and test out how it looks.

[markronz]

Ok, thanks so much for the help everyone!  I posted some questions on an antenna forum earlier in the week and no one on there even responded.  I should have just known to come to my favorite forum first! 

So I hooked everything up yesterday.   It was a bit of a pain putting the antenna together, but I got it.   I just got done mounting the antenna onto the roof when a neighbor stopped over and just said "hey!  Thought you might want to know that you have that pointed backwards!"   Grrr.  Glad someone told me however.  Stupid mistake, but easily enough resolved.  Just loosened the mounting bolts and swung it around.   

Right now I am using three splitters, which were left by my last cable tv provider.   And the reception is surprisingly good for all of my 5 tv's already, even with no amplifier!   Three of my TV's have built in tuners, and those do appear to be working better than the other two with converter boxes.  Attached is my little chart I made up of how my channel performance looks right now.   Looks like I have all the channels I was expecting to based on that TV Fool report I posted earlier.   

So although I'm pretty satisfied with how it all looks already, I'm a little worried on what it will look like once I hook up my TV Tuner as well.  So I did decide to get an amplifier as well.    I went with this 8 way splitter/amplifier:
http://www.amazon.com/8-Port-Bi-Directional-Amplifier-Splitter-Booster/dp/B000WDR94U/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
It has good reviews from what I saw.   Hopefully this will iron out those two problem stations in those two rooms, and add enough power to be able to handle the tv tuner too.   So I think I'm in good shape.  Thank you all for helping.    Now to begin working on my DVR computer!

[markronz]

Nope, no ION here unfortunately!  I think the closest that is broadcast is 90 miles-sh away.

[hypernova]

I'm smack dab in the middle of Cincinnati and Dayton, so I've got channels both way.  Since Cincy's a bigger market, I opt for it.

I use a Clearstream antenna outside.  It's a great antenna.  I also use a Motorola amp/4 way splitter.  Works great.

[hypernova]

At some point (though I've been saying this for a few years) I plan on moving the antenna higher on the house to get a bit better reception.  I need a ladder to do so, though.

In the meantime, electrical interference does play a role.  Lawnmowers are brutal on the signal for certain stations.  There are two main stations-CBS and ABC that come from the exact same direction, and only about a .1 of a mile difference.  ABC comes in perfectly fine, while CBS has struggles-a few times during a half-hour program you'll get a blocky reception glitch and occasionally a complete loss of signal for a brief second.  I tried running a new cable straight to the TV in the basement, but for some strange reason, the one station that does have trouble coming in originally (CBS) does not work AT ALL, while again, ABC works perfectly fine.  These stations are one degree off in the same heading at the exact same distance.  This just confuses the hell out of me.  NBC and FOX are also in the same 6 degree field of view.  The only difference I'm seeing is ALL of my stations within my area are UHF, while the CBS in Cincinnati is the only VHF.  Just looked it up, and VHF is a stronger signal, but UHF stations typically use more power to put out stronger signals since the base signal is weaker.  UHF waves also typically penetrate obstacles like walls and such better, though that shouldn't matter much to me since my antenna is outside.

Lawnmowers are running right now, so I'm using Dish to watch the Elite 8 games, even though it isn't in HD.  (I could've had HD local, but they would've had to install the dish on the roof, which I'm against-it would've given a view of the correct satellite.)

[ark_ader]

I got tired of pay $80 a month

My brother gets his for $25 a month and he has two boxes and the HD unit.

Better than screwing about with the aerial.

It is a buyers market, you have to whine and complain to get the best deals.

[markronz]

I got tired of pay $80 a month

My brother gets his for $25 a month and he has two boxes and the HD unit.

Better than screwing about with the aerial.

It is a buyers market, you have to whine and complain to get the best deals.

Yeah but free is better than $25.  Most of what I watch is on free broadcast tv anyway.  Anything else I can download or watch on Netflix.

I hooked up my amplified splitter the other day.  It mostly resolved my reception issues now.  There's one channel that has a very intermittent hiccup, but otherwise, all 14 channels are working great!

Now I'm onto the DVR part of things.  I've been trying to get my tv tuner card to work with my computer lately and I can't get it to.   I installed it into my main pc first, that's running Windows 7 Ultimate, and it worked just fine.  But I decided I'd rather have a several PC dedicated just to recording TV rather than taking up resources on my main computer.   So I installed it onto my old old PC then, running Windows XP.  It's a 800Mhz Athlon processor.  It worked on here too, although recording TV pretty much made every other operation on the PC halt.   I would sort of like to edit out the commercials on the same machine, so I opted to put the TV tuner card into my other old PC.  It's a P4 3.0 Ghz processor running Windows XP.  And for some reason on this PC, none of the software thinks the video card is working.   I've reinstalled Windows, I've tried a different version of Windows (MCE as well as normal XP).   I've uninstalled the drivers, reinstalled them. Nothing seems to work on this pc.   I think I'm starting to go bald from all the aggrivation it's causing me.   If anyone has any tips for me to get this tv tuner card working, let me know.  It's a ATI HDTV Wonder PCI card.   Otherwise, I guess I will keep playing with it.  At least I have regular TV to watch in the mean time!

[markronz]

Hey guys!  Resurrecting my old thread here.   Lately my antenna hasn't been doing that great.  There's still like 10 of 14 stations that work great, but it's those last 4 that are choppy.   It seems to vary on the time of day or any number of indeterminable factors.  Sometimes it's OK, and sometimes it's crappy.   I don't know if it's interference from lawn mowers or what.   On my main TV in the living room, it gets the best reception.  The coax leading to it isn't really any shorter than any of the others, and this TV is the newest.  So I'm thinking maybe the tuner in the TV is better than the rest.   But if that one TV gets better reception, it seems like I must be reasonably close to getting good picture on the others as well.

But anyway, I'm wondering what I can do to improve the signal.   To refresh the details, I have this roof antenna:
antenna link
And I have this amplified splitter/booster:
link

Is there anything else that I can do?   Like could I get a pre amplifier?  That would go between the antenna and the amplified splitter/booster?    I don't know too much about them, or if that's something I could try or what.  So I'm just looking to see what you guys think.  Is that worth a shot?  Or is there anything else I can try?

Thanks for the help!  Let me know if you need any more details!

[markronz]

Yeah my amp is right where the wire comes into the house. So I can't move it any closer.   I suppose I should go on the roof and see if it shifted at all.  From eyeing it up, it doesn't look like it, but it's worth looking at anyway.   But still, my reception has never been perfect.  Would a pre-amp do anything?