What's up with the angling?

[paigeoliver]

Also with the pure size of that 18 Admin buttons "Magic Moments" control panel you might as well  just line the players all up in a row like a 4 player showcase cabinet. It looks to be about 50"-54" wide, which is around 6" wider than two normal 2 player control panels combined.

[Nephasth]

Now all we need to do is to add additional monitors on the sides for players that match the angles of the sticks.

Check.

[Vigo]

Of course all this brings up the much more important reality that you aren't going to be playing more than a handful of fully populated 4 player games over the life of your machine unless you have 3 or 4 children (and do you really want to burden your least dominant children with cruddy angled sticks when they can barely see the screen).

4 player machines rarely saw much 4 player action out in the wild after they were a few months old and when they did it was mostly kids playing not adults.

That's the thing, I personally think I like 4 player games than most, but I came to the realization that that I don't play them with all four players that often. It is one of those pieces of nostaligia that is hard to shake.

[Vater]

I'm one that rarely plays 4-player games, so a 2-player panel suits me fine.

Regarding the Q-Bert discussion, I learned to play Q-Bert on my Atari 400 (only played a handful of times in the arcade and sucked because I was just a young kid with a limited number of quarters), and for some reason didn't position the fully-mobile Atari joystick at a 45° angle (with the button facing north) as the manual recommended.  So I got used to the directional controls being funky: up=NE, right=SE, down=SW, left=NW.  Consequently, I rock at Q-Bert on my current cabinet, which uses an X-Arcade tankstick.

But not to worry, when my custom panel is built I will likely have a U360 configured with the proper angles for Q-Bert.

[DogFish]

haha i didn't realise i'd kick up such a stink haha, but anyway, just to clarify,
the player 1 and 2 (middle two) controls will be in line with the television, no angling, but the outer controls (p1 & 4) will be committing the most heinous crime of being angled to be in line with the front ledge (the ledge closest you) rather than with the monitor.

i've made it in such a way so that will should not ever have to look at the controller to know which direction is which, because you will be able to feel the edge against your palm/wrist.
while i'm not saying it will work, i'd still like to try it. i've never seen a four player control panel i like they are either clustered together haphazardly, or the outer two controls are dead straight with the other two and you's have to either sit on a different angle to the controls your using, or have to keep your head turned left 45 degree's the whole time you play, which i could imagine not being fun.

maybe it will be horrible, but even if it is i'm going to find out first hand and the joke is on me, no-one else. no need to get all bent out of shape on it ^_^

as far as i could find, no-one has made a 4-player control panel with the outer two controls in-line with front of the control panel. if anyone has used one with that setup, or even seen one with that setup, i'd like to see it. if they regret doing it and it was a horrible decision, i'll happily eat my words.

 

[paigeoliver]

as far as i could find, no-one has made a 4-player control panel with the outer two controls in-line with front of the control panel. if anyone has used one with that setup, or even seen one with that setup, i'd like to see it. if they regret doing it and it was a horrible decision, i'll happily eat my words.

 

What do you mean by in line with the front of the panel. Do you mean with the joysticks all facing the same way, in that case they all did that. Gauntlet, Simpsons, Ninja Turtles, Quartet, X-Men, etc, etc, etc.

If you meant with all 4 player stations more or less firmly in front of the panel, thenscroll back further in this very thread so see that Gauntlet Legacy showcase style panel.

I have been involved on and off with the mame cabinet community for 11 years. Never once have I heard anyone say they regretted not angling their side sticks in. I have however seen dozens and dozens of people who were smarter than the sticks were and just had to angle their sticks. The best you ever here from them is "Its OK", and usually that is a lie.

The only reason you don't hear people being even more vocal about the mistakes of angling the sticks is that those 3rd and 4th player stations just end up sitting their unused anyway, so the problem doesn't crop up very much.

[HaRuMaN]

My player 3 & 4 sticks are not angled.

One of the main reasons: Robotron!  Robotron gets played with the player 3 & player 1 sticks...  imagine if one were angled, and the other one wasn't? 

[Vigo]

If he is referring to just that specific octogon 4 player control panels style, he might have a point. I don't know.

Although on my first rig, it was octagonal with the controls all facing up relative to the screen, however I never took any photos or documented it or anything. I also had a test panel with P3 and P4 angled but didn't quite like it. It just felt wrong to me. (Although as I mentioned in an earlier post, I have tried an angled rig that was not bad, which is the reason why I am not totally anti-angling. I still have a mindset that straight joysticks are always the best bet.)

My player 3 & 4 sticks are not angled.

One of the main reasons: Robotron!  Robotron gets played with the player 3 & player 1 sticks...  imagine if one were angled, and the other one wasn't? 

I always set my Robotron controls on player 1 and 2 to be centered on the screen. I would think that anyone with angled controls could do that if they at least lined up player 1 and 2. However, if anyone wants to partake in some 2 player smash TV with the correct controls, then straight joysticks are an absolute must.

[DogFish]

paigeoliver, you seem to have a rather poor grasp of understanding very basic english, so i have drawn up a diagram JUST FOR YOU to explain exactly how i am orienting the sticks and what it is i am trying to avoid, and, what i have never seen an example of.

i will explain this very simply, and very clearly, as if i were explaining it to a child. i will be VERY surprised if you manage to misinterpret it.

there are EIGHT lines i have drawn over this picture,
FOUR over each set of controls.
FOUR over the corresponding edge.

you will notice that the four lines over the controls run parallel with the four lines over the front edge of the control panel.
you will notice that despite the felt marker drawings on the middle two controls, the line for said two controls runs in line with the ledge in front of it. very simple stuff.
will will also notice that the outside 2 controls run parallel with the front the arcade controller, as i have marked with the two lines on each side.

now, if you can show me a controller with the same parallel with the front edge on player 3 and 4 setup, and the owner/maker/player of these controls can attest to it being awkward, i will bake you a damn cake and post it to you.

if you can not, kindly keep your nasty self-righteous comments to your self.

honest opinions are WELCOME and i thank everyone that has helped on my arcade-building journey.
ego-boosting nay-saying is totally un-called for and isn't going to help anyone at all.

[paigeoliver]

Sure thing here are a few. I just googled 4 player control panel and these were all on the first page, the vast majority of homemade 4 player panels line the buttons up like you do. I really don't mean to be nasty, but you don't have a new idea, you have an idea that has been well tested and doesn't work well. Lining the buttons up with the edge of the panel is actually a pretty good thing to do (original games normally didn't have the space for that luxury), but rotating the stick around to line up with the buttons, not so much.

I don't want a cake. I am not a child. I have built dozens of mame cabinets. I have owned around 200 original machines. I have a little experience with what we are talking about.

You never see an experience builder angling their sticks. It is always someone on their first project with 15 posts and a control panel layout who long ago got the idea that you were supposed to angle their side sticks because they read it on crapmame and now they can't let it go.

My first project was awful. It was a Capcom bowling cabinet with a 14" monitor in it and I had rigged the original trackball to roll the encoder wheels on one of those Compusa crystal trackball, and the two buttons were rigged up through that and everything else had to be done through the keyboard. Later I tried to build a big jumbo panel on a Defender cabinet (complete with dual gamepad hacks that required me to plug the second one in after I booted to keep them from swapping positions, the sticks may have even been angled, can't remember). I personally made the majority of the mistakes that one can make in this hobby, and my projects didn't start coming together right until I started doing what the more pro builders were doing.

But hey, you win. Your layout solves the problem perfectly. It will never be awkward or troublesome for anyone. You should build it.

[DogFish]

nicely done ^_^

you were doing so well til you said

"But hey, you win. Your layout solves the problem perfectly. It will never be awkward or troublesome for anyone. You should build it."

apparently, 10+ years in the industry has not taught you common human decency.

also, i take it you don't see how a straight layout or an octagon layout with northward sticks is troublesome?

[kahlid74]

paigeoliver, you seem to have a rather poor grasp of understanding very basic english, so i have drawn up a diagram JUST FOR YOU to explain exactly how i am orienting the sticks and what it is i am trying to avoid, and, what i have never seen an example of.

i will explain this very simply, and very clearly, as if i were explaining it to a child. i will be VERY surprised if you manage to misinterpret it.

there are EIGHT lines i have drawn over this picture,
FOUR over each set of controls.
FOUR over the corresponding edge.

you will notice that the four lines over the controls run parallel with the four lines over the front edge of the control panel.
you will notice that despite the felt marker drawings on the middle two controls, the line for said two controls runs in line with the ledge in front of it. very simple stuff.
will will also notice that the outside 2 controls run parallel with the front the arcade controller, as i have marked with the two lines on each side.

now, if you can show me a controller with the same parallel with the front edge on player 3 and 4 setup, and the owner/maker/player of these controls can attest to it being awkward, i will bake you a damn cake and post it to you.

if you can not, kindly keep your nasty self-righteous comments to your self.

honest opinions are WELCOME and i thank everyone that has helped on my arcade-building journey.
ego-boosting nay-saying is totally un-called for and isn't going to help anyone at all.

Take it from someone who has angled them exactly how you did, it doesn't work long term.  I did the same thing with lining the joysticks based on the angled side of the CP closest to the player and what I found was that player 3-4 not only felt awkward to start but required a learning curve with each game and felt significantly awkward after 15 minutes of play.  This was even with stickers on the CP showing what direction was up/down/left/right.  

We all have a right to build cabinets however we want, and I'm a huge proponent of supporting every individuals uniqueness, but what the majority of people in this thread are telling you is that if you build it angled, there's a high chance that long term you won't be happy with what you've done.  Don't take it personally, because that's what I did and I acted like it was my choice and I was the right one. Then I actually played player 3 for a prolonged period of time and discovered how I had been misguided all along.  Then it made even more sense why at a lot of house parties we held people didn't play player 3/4 after about an hour of use where player 1-2 were played into the wee hours of the morning.

[kahlid74]

Let me add also that I left the layout as is, with the players positioned just like you did but I aimed the joystick towards the screen like player 1/2.  That way player 3/4 were still physically separated from 1/2.  At first I thought it would be awkward as a wrist motion but it's not, it works.  Whole heartily it works.

Angle the buttons, but not the joystick.

[DogFish]

why thank you, khalid. its nice to have an honest respectful opinion from someone who has had first-hand expirience with player 3/4 sticks lined up with the panel instead of the TV. thats think kind of thing that will make me seriously reconsider my design, rather than getting annoyed at spiteful nay-sayers.

once again, thank you. your voice of sanity and reason is very welcome.

....any suggestions as to what would be the best alternative?

[Peja]

Kahlid,

I noticed you said P3 and P4 were barely played while 1 and 2 were into the wee hours of the morning.  Is this because of just hardly any 4 player games to play or because the controls were angled wrong? 

I'm in the process of cutting my CP this weekend and have yet to decide on all 4 players with trackball or just 2 players with trackball.  I have all the controls for 4 players, just not sure if it will be too cramped and not used.  However, I do want to play Dreamcast on my machine so I am leaning towards 4 players.

Thanks,

[DogFish]

haha, you answered my question before i even asked it!

you are truely fantastic, Mr. Khalid.

[paigeoliver]

I apologize. Sometimes I feel like I am just beating my head against a wall with some of this stuff. It can get frustrating.

I have never played on an exact precise clone of the control panel layout you have come up with. I have played on maybe a half dozen machines that had angled sticks (several pretty similar to your layout but not exact). There was always some level of strangeness to it that ranged from mildly weird to totally unplayable. The larger the angle and the closer you were to the screen the worse it got. I have played on countless machines that didn't angle the sticks and the only thing that was ever weird about it was the less than ideal screen viewing angle that most 4 player machines gave the 3rd and 4th players.

The alignment of the buttons in relation to the alignment of the stick isn't a real issue. If you look at enough original machines you can see that they swung those all over the place on multiplayer machines. The reason it isn't an issue is because your joystick hand isn't doing the same thing as your button hands, at all. It is up in the air holding a stick controlling the action that happens on the monitor and that is why aligning the stick with the monitor works most naturally. That is why when you drive your car you can operate it just fine with your steering wheel at one level and your shifter down much lower. However if you tried to ergonomically angle that shifter gate pattern to fit the angle of your arm you would find it would be harder to control.

It might also help if you could imagine piloting a plane with that stick, and the monitor is the front window of the plane. The plane will always be easiest to fly if the controls face the same was as the window, even if you approach the stick from an angle.

nicely done ^_^

you were doing so well til you said

"But hey, you win. Your layout solves the problem perfectly. It will never be awkward or troublesome for anyone. You should build it."

apparently, 10+ years in the industry has not taught you common human decency.

also, i take it you don't see how a straight layout or an octagon layout with northward sticks is troublesome?

[Vigo]

You can consider just not putting major angles into your CP design at all. Here is the one that Haruman just acquired from Timeo.



I think this looks like a fine 4p panel.

[paigeoliver]

Peja. When I owned my 4 player TMNT cabinet people usually just waited to play it two at a time rather than all cramming in, however I also had multiple machines to choose from. Building a second (vertical) cabinet if you have room for it might be the better choice.

How old you and your friends are plays a big part too, once you get past your early 20s your machine isn't really going to see much 4 player action until you are much older and then it will be the kids, not the adults. You might get all your buddies over to go through TMNT once, maybe even twice, but the novelty will wear off quickly.

Kahlid,

I noticed you said P3 and P4 were barely played while 1 and 2 were into the wee hours of the morning.  Is this because of just hardly any 4 player games to play or because the controls were angled wrong?  

I'm in the process of cutting my CP this weekend and have yet to decide on all 4 players with trackball or just 2 players with trackball.  I have all the controls for 4 players, just not sure if it will be too cramped and not used.  However, I do want to play Dreamcast on my machine so I am leaning towards 4 players.

Thanks,

[kahlid74]

Kahlid,

I noticed you said P3 and P4 were barely played while 1 and 2 were into the wee hours of the morning.  Is this because of just hardly any 4 player games to play or because the controls were angled wrong? 

I'm in the process of cutting my CP this weekend and have yet to decide on all 4 players with trackball or just 2 players with trackball.  I have all the controls for 4 players, just not sure if it will be too cramped and not used.  However, I do want to play Dreamcast on my machine so I am leaning towards 4 players.

Thanks,

Honestly, I'm super happy I built it four player.  There's still plenty of cases where all four players were being used and we had parties of 30-50 people just about every weekend for a year straight there.  I think the majority of people were there to drink/hang out/hook up so after the initial hour the novelty wore off and only the hardcore arcadists were still rocking it (1 and 2 player).  I can however tell you we had numerous instances where my close group of friends would rock all the way through four players of Sunset riders or captain American and the avengers or X-Men, so I'm very happy I built it four players.  So IMO you can't go wrong with a four player unless you want to build something specific instead of a full size cab.

From a design perspective I'm super happy I angled the positions of player 3/4 to the side on the CP.  The spacing physically is just enough where people can stand somewhat comfortably and the viewing perspective is still workable.  I've only every built cabs with 27" screens or larger (TV {CRT and LCD}) so I've lucked out in the skewed viewing angle by angling the CP.  I'm building another CP right now and I plan to have it drilled by this weekend.  I'll upload photos for you guys so you can see how it looks and whether you like the look/feel of it.

[Peja]

Thanks for the replies paige and kahlid.  My setup is a Dynamo showcase with the 39" monitor so I think I will still plan on going 4 players.  I may however extend the length of the pedestal a little bit more so 3 and 4 players have a little bit more of a straight viewing area. 

I have also thought about having a dedicated 2 player setup eventually as paigeoliver has suggested.  Can't go wrong with a 4 player and 2 player dedicated cabs I suppose.

I am interested in seeing your pictures kahlid, or even pictures of your 4 player panel.

Thanks.

[paigeoliver]

Oh heck yes. I am not the biggest fan of four player, but with a 39' Dynamo showcase I would go four player as well.

[Green Giant]

why thank you, khalid. its nice to have an honest respectful opinion from someone who has had first-hand expirience with player 3/4 sticks lined up with the panel instead of the TV. thats think kind of thing that will make me seriously reconsider my design, rather than getting annoyed at spiteful nay-sayers.

once again, thank you. your voice of sanity and reason is very welcome.

....any suggestions as to what would be the best alternative?

Is it lonely up there on your pedestal?

[DogFish]

is it lonely down there under your bridge?

[Vigo]

  Well played.

[CheffoJeffo]

Man have I missed hearing the same damned arguments with the same damned results! 

About the only new piece of info was an actual picture of a factory machine with angled sticks.

[kahlid74]

Thanks for the replies paige and kahlid.  My setup is a Dynamo showcase with the 39" monitor so I think I will still plan on going 4 players.  I may however extend the length of the pedestal a little bit more so 3 and 4 players have a little bit more of a straight viewing area. 

I have also thought about having a dedicated 2 player setup eventually as paigeoliver has suggested.  Can't go wrong with a 4 player and 2 player dedicated cabs I suppose.

I am interested in seeing your pictures kahlid, or even pictures of your 4 player panel.

Thanks.

My next cab is a Dynamo/Showcase with a 42" inch rotating TV.  So I'm in the same place you are!   I'm going to have to change the Dynamo design because I need to push your standing back.  It's a pet project so I hope it still resembles an arcade machine somewhat LOL.  It's probably just going to be a monstrosity but man if it works that would be cool.

I'll post pictures of the system so you can see.

[HaRuMaN]

a 42" inch rotating TV

I hope you mean LCD?

[paigeoliver]

It would have to be LCD or plasma. The largest commonly available traditional TV sets capped out at 36", although the very high end did produce some larger ones than that during that brief period of time where you could buy a widescreen set with a picture tube.

a 42" inch rotating TV

I hope you mean LCD?

[kahlid74]

42 inch LED tv I got from BB for 200 bucks.  Works just fine and being LED is super light, so my lbs*in torque is less than what it would be if it's an LCD or Plasma.

[Peja]

Kahlid,

Originally I had a LED tv I was going to use in the dynamo but decided to recap the arcade monitor and go the arcadevga/jpac route.  I will just hang the led tv on the wall in the game room now which saves me from having to go buy one.  I was going to extend the width of the top and bottom parts of the dynamo monitor section to fit the tv....kind of like mamerooms design:  http://mameroom.com/Products_LCDShowcase_System.asp  Maybe you can get your hole LED Box frame to rotate along with it??


As for the pedestal part, I am toying around with the idea of adding a 10 inch box section in between where the pedestal can disconnect from the base of the monitor section.  You may need to go a little bit further than 10 inches with the 42"   Perhaps, since it will most likely be against the wall, you could cut off the back section of the monitor base stand to get it even closer to the wall.

Then again, this might not make sense to anyone.......I just got back from lunch and took a nap at home instead of eating so I am still trying to wake up.

Peja

[Vigo]

It would have to be LCD or plasma. The largest commonly available traditional TV sets capped out at 36", although the very high end did produce some larger ones than that during that brief period of time where you could buy a widescreen set with a picture tube.

a 42" inch rotating TV

I hope you mean LCD?

I have a 40 inch crt tv from the 90's. I don't think they made larger than that. It weighs in at probably 250 lbs...at least playing tecmo super bowl kicks ass on it 

[HaRuMaN]

Like this?

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/vgm/2822497044.html

[paigeoliver]

Can you imagine decasing that and putting it into a standing cocktail! That would be awesome.

Like this?

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/vgm/2822497044.html

[Vigo]

I think that is the exact TV I have. I bought it at auction 5 years ago for that price as well. I love how the guy pretty much made the same comment about retro video games as I did. 

[DogFish]

oh, mitsubishi. too lovely, they make some of the best looking CRT's IMHO.