Stuttering issues in MAME with Makvision 29" tri-mode monitor [SOLVED!]

[dekar24k]

Heya,

So I am currently configuring MAME and all emulators on my new cab, but I am having some issues with horizontal stuttering!

On my previous cab I was using a Wells Gardner D9800 and all MAME/NES/SNES/Genesis games had perfect horizontal scrolling .. and I mean PERFECT (I am very, very sensitive to horizontal tearing and stuttering).

This time I am using a Makvision 29" Tri-Mode monitor which is supposed to have the same specs as the WG D9800 except that it isn't digital. The picture quality is great and all, but I notice that all games (some more than others) have occasional stuttering when scrolling horizontally. It isn't very noticable, but it happens once every 4-7 seconds and I find it extremely annoying.

At first I thought I had MAMEUIFX32 configured wrong, but the same stuttering appears in other emulators when I run them at 640x480 60hz with VSync enabled. This did not happen on my previous cab with the WG D9800.

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Here are my hardware and software specs:

- MSI G41M-P25, Socket-775, mATX motherboard
- Intel Core2 Duo E8400 @ 3GHz
- 4GB Crucial DDR3 1066MHz RAM
- Chieftec Nitro 550W PSU
- ArcadeVGA 3000 PCI-Ex graphics card
- Windows XP Pro

Using MAMEUIFX32 v0.144 with vsync and triple buffering enabled (same as I used on my WG D9800 cab).

Monitor: Makvision 29" Tri-Mode CRT

H-Frequency: 15/24/31KHz

V-Frequency: 47-70Hz

Bandwidth: 65MHz

640 x 480 max resolution.

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So, does anyone have any idea what I can do to fix this? Shouldn't this Makvision monitor be perfectly capable of running most MAME games and emulators with absolutely no juttering/stuttering?

Is there something I have forgotten to do? It's been almost 2 years since I set up my previous cabinet, so I might have missed something or done something wrong? I work with computers, networking and configuration so I consider myself tech savvy, but when it comes to monitor resolutions and stuff like that I am absolutely no expert.

I notice that this monitor has a bunch of pots on the main board. Can it be that I need to adjust some of those? Do I have to manually switch between 15/25/31khz? Is that where the problem is?

I seriously have no idea right now ...    

All input appreciated a lot!

[dekar24k]

Just adding that I'm mostly using Wonder Boy for horizontal scroll testing. That game should run exactly in 60hz shouldn't it?

Can the problem be that my Makvision monitor currently isn't in 60hz mode (even though the monitor properties in Windows says 60hz)?

[MonMotha]

Unless this Makvision is built substantially differently from most other CRT arcade monitors, the monitor will run at exactly whatever the PC tells it to do.  It doesn't have any choice since it doesn't have any memory and can't convert anything on its own.

The only influence it has at any stage on framerate is the "suggestions" it makes via DDC/EDID.  I've noticed that many Windows video drivers will silently override what you're trying to tell it to do based on these "suggestions", even if what you wanted it to do was actually within the capabilities of the monitor.  Try telling your drivers to ignore that or just yanking the pins to defeat it.  At that point, you've got a dumb slave device just like any other arcade monitor.

I know the D9800 has an EDID ROM on it.  Being an analog monitor, they may not have put one on the Makvision, which may be the difference between the two setups.

Also, note that surprisingly few arcade games ran at "exactly" 60Hz.  Many ran at things like 59.978741Hz (example) since everything was usually derived from some random clock elsewhere on the board that was probably chosen for other reasons.  The "60Hz" setting in Windows also doesn't mean "exactly 60Hz".  It means "configure the PLL on the video card for something that's close to 60Hz".  What you actually get varies with the driver.  There's no easy way to specify exact video timings in Windows without driver specific hackery (which is what Powerstrip, soft15k, etc. do).  Some cards can't actually to "60.00Hz", either due to PLL limitations, and are limited to things like 59.99 or 60.01Hz (but note that's close enough that you're only off by one frame every minute and a half or thereabouts).

[dekar24k]

Thanks for the reply MonMotha!

Hmm .. I just noticed that my monitor has an impedance switch, where I can set 31KHz mode or 15/24KHz mode. It was currently set on 31KHz mode. I will set it to 15/24KHz and check in a little while if it makes any difference.

Edit: Just switched to 15khz mode and it made no difference. Still occasional stuttering in all scrolling games.

Dang .. Any more ideas anyone?

[Calamity]

Hi dekar24k,

Your problem is MAME related. Modern MAME won't produce smooth scrolling although you enable vsync. You'll have some stuttering here and there. Getting very close to native refresh (exact is not possible) won't help. Try GroovyMAME with the -syncrefresh option enabled, it has some patches that solve this issue: http://mario.groovy.org/GroovyMame/WindowsATIDrivers/

Go for the last binary (groovymame32_0144u2.013d.rar)

[dekar24k]

Hi dekar24k,

Your problem is MAME related. Modern MAME won't produce smooth scrolling although you enable vsync. You'll have some stuttering here and there. Getting very close to native refresh (exact is not possible) won't help. Try GroovyMAME with the -syncrefresh option enabled, it has some patches that solve this issue: http://mario.groovy.org/GroovyMame/WindowsATIDrivers/

Go for the last binary (groovymame32_0144u2.013d.rar)

Thanks for the Groovymame tip. I will check it out, but, how did I get perfectly smooth scrolling on my last cab with the WG D9800 and MAMEUIFX32? Also, if it's MAME-related, how come it stutters in other emulators as well (at fixed resolution 640x480 60hz, playing NTSC 60hz games)?

Edit:

Just tried Groovymame with the -syncrefresh parameter and I got the same stuttering unfortunately. I'm thinking it must be a driver/ArcadeVGA issue .. ?

[Calamity]

Sounds like it's something else definitely. Do you have a secondary monitor attached?

[dekar24k]

Sounds like it's something else definitely. Do you have a secondary monitor attached?

Nope. Only the Makvision.

[Calamity]

...I mean in Screen/Properties, the screen numbered [2] is graiyed out right?

[dekar24k]

...I mean in Screen/Properties, the screen numbered [2] is graiyed out right?

Yes, it is grayed out (although I can click on it and select it).

[Calamity]

Then I'd check dxdiag to see if the directdraw and direct3d acceleration is enabled. In case they're disabled it would point to a possible driver issue.
(using Arcade_OSD from the link above can help you testing scrolling patterns)

[dekar24k]

Then I'd check dxdiag to see if the directdraw and direct3d acceleration is enabled. In case they're disabled it would point to a possible driver issue.
(using Arcade_OSD from the link above can help you testing scrolling patterns)

I just checked dxdiag and both ddraw and d3d are enabled with no problems.

Thanks for the tip about Arcade_OSD. That one will definitely be very useful!

[Calamity]

Thanks for the tip about Arcade_OSD. That one will definitely be very useful!

Just make sure to use the "measure vfreq" option (press "5") once you're in full screen mode.

[dekar24k]

Thanks again Calamity! Your input is appreciated a lot!

I just tried re-installing the AVGA drivers with no luck. I also tried using the exact same version of MAMEUIFX that I used in my previous cab (where I had super-ultra-smooth scrolling) but it's still jerky.

Damn this really sucks.. I'm all out of ideas.

[Calamity]

When you tried GroovyMAME, did you make a fresh ini with them -cc param? Make sure not to use -triplebuffer with GM, only -syncrefresh.

[dekar24k]

When you tried GroovyMAME, did you make a fresh ini with them -cc param? Make sure not to use -triplebuffer with GM, only -syncrefresh.

Just tried to make a fresh ini with the -cc parameter and it got a lot better. Now the occasional stuttering is gone, but I still imagine there's a slight stutter all over. When I used arcadeOSD then it said that my monitor was running at 59hz. Maybe that's where the problem is?

[Calamity]

Video modes are labelled using integers, so 320x240@59 may actually refer to 59.99 Hz. In order to know the 'real' refresh, use Arcade_OSD set a particular resolution to full screen and measure it pressing "5". That will also show a scrolling pattern which you can use to judge if there's any stuttering.

BTW, are you using the 'switch resolutions to fit' option in MAME or just using the default desktop resolution?

Some MAME games to test scroll stuttering:
- sfa3 (character selection screen)
- mk (character selection screen)

[dekar24k]

Video modes are labelled using integers, so 320x240@59 may actually refer to 59.99 Hz. In order to know the 'real' refresh, use Arcade_OSD set a particular resolution to full screen and measure it pressing "5". That will also show a scrolling pattern which you can use to judge if there's any stuttering.

BTW, are you using the 'switch resolutions to fit' option in MAME or just using the default desktop resolution?

Some MAME games to test scroll stuttering:
- sfa3 (character selection screen)
- mk (character selection screen)

Thanks again for your tips and time. I will try the above and report back.

BTW, I found a version of MAMEUIFX w. GroovyMame features that you have compiled. I'm a big fan of the MAMEUIFX interface while testing, so will this basically be the same as using GroovyMame via command line?

[Calamity]

BTW, I found a version of MAMEUIFX w. GroovyMame features that you have compiled. I'm a big fan of the MAMEUIFX interface while testing, so will this basically be the same as using GroovyMame via command line?

Ah, that's fine, better grab this one (newer):

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=GFGWDSAL

Notice the -sounsync option is removed from this build, it's automatic an no longer necessary.
Yeah the same sync patches GroovyMAME uses are included in this build, but it lacks the modeline generation part (you wouldn't use it anyway),

[dekar24k]

BTW, I found a version of MAMEUIFX w. GroovyMame features that you have compiled. I'm a big fan of the MAMEUIFX interface while testing, so will this basically be the same as using GroovyMame via command line?

Ah, that's fine, better grab this one (newer):

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=GFGWDSAL

Notice the -sounsync option is removed from this build, it's automatic an no longer necessary.
Yeah the same sync patches GroovyMAME uses are included in this build, but it lacks the modeline generation part (you wouldn't use it anyway),

Got it! Thanks again!

[dekar24k]

BTW, I found a version of MAMEUIFX w. GroovyMame features that you have compiled. I'm a big fan of the MAMEUIFX interface while testing, so will this basically be the same as using GroovyMame via command line?

Ah, that's fine, better grab this one (newer):

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=GFGWDSAL

Notice the -sounsync option is removed from this build, it's automatic an no longer necessary.
Yeah the same sync patches GroovyMAME uses are included in this build, but it lacks the modeline generation part (you wouldn't use it anyway),

So I grabbed the above and tried a few games .. and ...

HELL YEAH!!!   

It is not often that I see horizontal scrolling this smooth ..

YES! Now all that I have left to do is to fine tune the monitor pots a little and get started on my control panel.

Wow. Thanks for all your help man, I really appreciate it. Groovymame really did the trick! Thanks and thanks again!  

[Calamity]

Good to hear that! 

[dekar24k]

May I just ask one last question, since you seem to be well educated on this area; how do I know that my arcade monitor/avga outputs the games at 15khz and not 31khz? The horizontal refresh rate doesn't show up in Arcade_OSD, only the vertical.

Thanks again!

[Calamity]

Well if you set a low resolution to full screen with Arcade_OSD, say 320x240, you should notice thick scanlines, and the white horizontal lines in the grid should only occupy a single scanline, then thats 15 KHz. Of course you can just plug a PC monitor you have around and its OSD will speak.

[dekar24k]

Well if you set a low resolution to full screen with Arcade_OSD, say 320x240, you should notice thick scanlines, and the white horizontal lines in the grid should only occupy a single scanline, then thats 15 KHz. Of course you can just plug a PC monitor you have around and its OSD will speak.

Thanks again!

[dekar24k]

Calamity, if you still have time to answer a short question;

Now that I'm running the version of MAMEUIFX32 you compiled with GroovyMame features, do I still need the .ini files that I generated using AVRes? I read that GroovyMAME sets the correct resolution on every game without needing the .ini files, but does this also apply to this particular version of MAMEUIFX32 w. GroovyMame features?

If so, can I just delete the .ini files from the /ini/ dir then?

Thanks again for all your help.

[Calamity]

Hi dekar,

You need to keep the .ini files because that build of MAMEUIFX only contains the sync patches from GroovyMAME but not the modeline engine (which is responsible of picking the best resolutions).

I don't mean however that the .inis produced by AVRes are the best possible ones: they're not, so some manual adjusting will be necessary in many cases.

[dekar24k]

Hi dekar,

You need to keep the .ini files because that build of MAMEUIFX only contains the sync patches from GroovyMAME but not the modeline engine (which is responsible of picking the best resolutions).

I don't mean however that the .inis produced by AVRes are the best possible ones: they're not, so some manual adjusting will be necessary in many cases.

Thanks again Calamity! Yes, I will keep the .inis then.

Some games are indeed way off and need manual adjusting, but then again as I don't have a digital monitor I will be using only the ~60hz resolutions and upscale/stretch the rest of them.