Any bread makers here?

[shmokes]

I got a top-of-the-line Kitchenaid stand mixer for Christmas and bread is the primary thing I'm interested in it for. I tried baguettes yesterday and they were crap, though. It was like a decent baguette from the bakery at a giant grocery store. The crust was all golden and soft. Squeezing it produced no crackle.  The flavor was pretty good, and don't get me wrong, they were perfectly edible. But if you're gonna go through the effort to make bread at home the results should be epic. I want to get as close to an authentic French baguette as I possibly can in a traditional American oven. Any suggestions?

Other great bread recipes are welcome, too, especially if tailored specifically for a stand mixer.

[Dervacumen]

The crispiness of the bread comes from moisture during the baking process.  When you make your loaf, make sure you've kinda pinched together all the edges so you create an envelope that the steam can't escape from.
Use a preheated pizza stone to put your loaf on.  If you don't have a pizza stone, use a cast iron skillet.  Just something that will maintain a constant temperature for a long while.  When you put your bread in, throw a couple ice cubes or just 1/4 -1/2 cup of water in the oven to make the steam.
Good luck.  If your oven doesn't heat evenly you're fighting a losing battle regardless of what you do.

Baking bread is one of those things that you have to practice.  A lot.  The humidity, the moisture content of your flour, the exact temperature of your water, your oven (have you checked the thermostat readings with a thermometer?) proofing time, blah blah blah.  The key is learning the ideal moisture / heat balance IMO.

[drventure]

throw a couple ice cubes or just 1/4 -1/2 cup of water in the oven

Interesting, I'd have thought just the opposite.

But I can vouch for a pizza stone. I thought that was just a gimmick, but the dang thing works great. Just be sure to put it in when you first start preheating the oven so it's toasty.

[Rando]

I have no idea if this is relevant to bread making, but I make cheesecakes regularly, and a way to keep the cake from cracking is to stick a baking pan with an inch or so of water in the oven/under where the cheesecake will sit prior to preheating.  That's about the only baking tip I have to offer.

luck!

[Dervacumen]

You kinda have to steam it for a bit toward the end of the baking, then let the steam out of the oven so the crust gets crusty.  If your over has a really good seal you may have to actually open the door.  That's why it doesn't work like when you make a cheesecake.  Also, if you used too much water in the dough, it stays too moist inside and the crust might seem crunchy at first then get softer as it sits and the moisture from the inside continues to escape.  It's seriously not easy.  Well, it's easy, but getting the right proportions for your particular environment takes a lot of practice.  At least it's tasting good while you tweak your recipe and technique.

[ChadTower]

Dude, wtf.  We knew this was going to happen when he moved to France but it still makes my foot twitch.

Is shmokes really complaining that he can't manage to make a good enough baguette and discussing the American Oven as a drawback?

 

[Le Chuck]

Stop using a modern convection oven.  Build a brick oven on your porch/balcony/roof/parking space and start baking bread in an open wood fired oven.  Results will improve dramatically... or support your local bakery and buy a loaf of the good stuff.  If they don't make it how you like it talk to the baker and tell him/her what you're looking for. 

[Mikezilla]

Dude, wtf.  We knew this was going to happen when he moved to France but it still makes my foot twitch.

Is shmokes really complaining that he can't manage to make a good enough baguette and discussing the American Oven as a drawback?

 

I didnt know Shmokes moved to France. Well, that explains all the cooking stuff then. Why France of all places? 

[shmokes]

Dude, wtf.  We knew this was going to happen when he moved to France but it still makes my foot twitch.

Is shmokes really complaining that he can't manage to make a good enough baguette and discussing the American Oven as a drawback?

 

Why would this make your foot twitch? Does it also bother you when people go to pizzerias for brick oven cooked pizzas? That's so unpatriotic!

[shmokes]

Why France of all places? 

France is amazing. This is actually not a secret. France is by far the most visited country* in the world by tourists. The United States comes in a distant second, with China and Spain followed closely behind the US.



*That link is to a PDF. The relevant info is at the top of Page 6.

[Mikezilla]

Why France of all places? 

France is amazing. This is actually not a secret. France is by far the most visited country* in the world by tourists. The United States comes in a distant second, with China and Spain followed closely behind the US.



*That link is to a PDF. The relevant info is at the top of Page 6.

I know, I have been, I just dont think I would want to live there. Ew I didnt know China was that close behind. Never would have suspected that.

So how long have you been living in France? Was this discussed in another thread that I missed? Man, if I lived in France I would probably balloon to 400 pounds. The food there is superb.

[shmokes]

Stop using a modern convection oven.  Build a brick oven on your porch/balcony/roof/parking space and start baking bread in an open wood fired oven.  Results will improve dramatically... or support your local bakery and buy a loaf of the good stuff.  If they don't make it how you like it talk to the baker and tell him/her what you're looking for. 

Brick oven isn't an option, though it's on my list of things I'll someday build. Currently I live in a 4th floor apartment. It's illegal where I live to put a grill on the balcony (though I just put a little hibachi out there  ). Anyway I don't think I could get away with building a full-on brick oven. And I don't have a reserved parking space.  

So how long have you been living in France? Was this discussed in another thread that I missed? Man, if I lived in France I would probably balloon to 400 pounds. The food there is superb.

I don't. I live in DC. I moved to Paris temporarily for a 3-month internship in 2009. I want to move there long-term, but I haven't been able to find a job. Bad time for my line of work.

[Dervacumen]

It's a bad time for any line of work, except maybe offering employment services.
Anyway let me know if you try any of the suggestions.  I'm interested in the feedback.

[Howard_Casto]

So Shmokes LIKES France... that explains a lot.   

Don't get me wrong, it is a beautiful place to visit, full of art and culture.  But when you stay there you have to deal with the French and that just isn't worth it.  Pretty sure the same thing can be said of Texas. 

[shmokes]

Texas is full of art and culture?

[Le Chuck]

Texas is full of art and culture?

No, Texas is full of the French.  Learn to read!

[shmokes]

It's really too bad. The French are a lovely people. But everyone visits Paris and assumes that's how the whole country is. Of course, Paris is too magical to be spoiled even by the Parisians.

[Ed_McCarron]

Bad time for my line of work.

Yeah.  People are kind of interested in honesty right now.    

[shmokes]

Huh?

[Ed_McCarron]

Huh?

Poor attempt at a lawyer joke.  You were the larval lawyer, right?  Or do I have the wrong person again?  I've been known to do that...

[shmokes]

Ohhhhh . . . . . lol. Okay. I get it now. It just went over my head. You have the right person.

[Cakemeister]

Personally, I love France.

French people were very nice to me when I was there, even in Paris. I would try to talk my "moi Tarzan, toi Jane" French and they would always respond in English.

If I wanted a real baguette I would go to La Madeleine rather than attempt to bake one. There is at least one location in the DC area.

[shmokes]

I'll have to check out La Madeleine. Still, I love cooking and I'd like to become good at bread. I'm going out of town for a week but when I get back I'll start experimenting with the suggestions here.

[ChadTower]

Texas is full of art and culture?

No, Texas is full of the French.  Learn to read!

 

[BobA]

If you have Vietnamese bakeries in you area try them for a real baguette.  They learned the art when they were occupied by the French.  They are really good and make a nice sub or Vietnmese Bahn Mi.

[shmokes]

The crispiness of the bread comes from moisture during the baking process.  When you make your loaf, make sure you've kinda pinched together all the edges so you create an envelope that the steam can't escape from.
Use a preheated pizza stone to put your loaf on.  If you don't have a pizza stone, use a cast iron skillet.  Just something that will maintain a constant temperature for a long while.  When you put your bread in, throw a couple ice cubes or just 1/4 -1/2 cup of water in the oven to make the steam.
Good luck.  If your oven doesn't heat evenly you're fighting a losing battle regardless of what you do.

Baking bread is one of those things that you have to practice.  A lot.  The humidity, the moisture content of your flour, the exact temperature of your water, your oven (have you checked the thermostat readings with a thermometer?) proofing time, blah blah blah.  The key is learning the ideal moisture / heat balance IMO.

Made some more baguettes today (and a loaf of honey-wheat sandwich bread). I got FAR better results. I still have a ways to go before I'm where I want to be, but my bread this time is so far-and-away better than the last time that I'm pretty damned pleased. The baguettes are as good as any I've had from an American bakery and a lot better than from the grocery store bakeries.

The last ones I made were from a recipe on allrecipes.com that had a ton of good reviews. This time I took a recipe from a Julia Child book I have. I don't know why I didn't do that to begin with. Also I lined my oven rack with ceramic tiles (I'm sorry if this hurts your feelings Chad) and cooked directly on that instead of a cookie sheet. It worked out pretty awesome. Instead of buying a pizza stone I just went to the flooring department of Home Depot and bought unglazed quarry tiles. Julia Child recommended it. It seems to be exactly the same stuff that pizza stones are typically made of. The best part, though, is that the 6"x6" tiles are only 46 cents apiece, whereas a typical 14"x16" pizza stone is like $50. Not only that but the Amazon reviews for pizza stones are always super mixed from all the people who are pissed off that their stone cracked after only a couple uses. I just don't see myself complaining too loudly if one of my stones cracks.

Oh yeah, I did toss 1/2 a cup of water in the bottom of the oven too, just as I was putting the bread in.

[Blanka]

The French are the best for holiday bread, but not for 365/24 bread. That title goes to the germans. Although, I might think Americans see German bread as medical stuff for obese-treatment or so, not food.

Do google images on the following :0
bread
brot
pain site:.fr (otherwise you see just sore shoulders)

brot looks the best



Living sandwiched between France and Germany, the Benelux is not bad on bread too. You find the german-way and the french way combined in most decent bakeries. Although in smaller villages in the Netherlands, bakeries are often more like serving K-Mart style camping bread. We call that "bread you can stick into a hollow molar".

[shmokes]

That does look pretty tasty. Like it just really wants you to add few slices of Italian dry salami, some pepperoni, and maybe swiss or gruyere cheese.

[ChadTower]

I just throw some flour/yeast/water/etc into my breadmaker and come back in 3 hours.   

[Hoopz]

That does look pretty tasty. Like it just really wants you to add few slices of Italian dry salami, some pepperoni, and maybe swiss or gruyere cheese.

Salami and pepperoni are good but go with something better with great bread.  Try prosciutto, fresh basil, extra virgin olive oil and gruyere or fresh mozzarella.  Don't get too focused on American "deli" products.  Go with a variety of salumi for the best effect.

 

[shmokes]

I just throw some flour/yeast/water/etc into my breadmaker and come back in 3 hours.   

Does your breadmaker have a baguette setting? 

[Dervacumen]

Those look really good shmokes.  And I think I'll buy some tiles - nice hint.

[shmokes]

Thanks. I pulled them out probably a bit earlier than I should have. The crust still wasn't as crispy as I'd have liked (though it was MUCH better than my first attempt) and as you can see from the color, I still had time. I was only planning to pull two of them out to cool and freeze for further baking on a later date, but the internal temp of the bread had already reached 200 degrees F so I called them done and pulled out all three. I just moved into my place and it has an old gas oven that cooks WAY hotter than is indicated on the knob. I'm still getting used to it.

[Le Chuck]

It just goes to show that you can't go wrong with following Julia Childs to a T.  All of my favorite recipes are from her and Jacques Pepin.   Gut brot... or more appropriately c'est un beaux pain  

[Mikezilla]

It just goes to show that you can't go wrong with following Julia Childs to a T.  All of my favorite recipes are from her and Jacques Pepin.   Gut brot... or more appropriately c'est un beaux pain  

Dude, Jacques rules!  His daughter is a clod though.

[shmokes]

Although, I might think Americans see German bread as medical stuff for obese-treatment or so, not food.

BTW, I don't get it . . .

[Dervacumen]

I just moved into my place and it has an old gas oven that cooks WAY hotter than is indicated on the knob. I'm still getting used to it.

I really believe that's the key.  I recently bought a new oven rather than repairing my old POS, and suddenly pretty much everything I bake is awesome.  Using the preexisting oven when we moved in, just about everything we baked burned or came out like crap.  Or less than super-duper good, which I define as crap.
Both of my ovens worked on gas; now I'm retrofitting the old one to be a proofing oven, just sitting there with a lonely 100W bulb.  Looks like crap, but gives a draft free cozy environment for proofing dough.

Get a Joy of Cooking book.  It's been in my library for 30 years, and the updated version has some new hints.  If you can find an old version at a garage sale though, get it.  Some of the old techniques just seem to result in better results.  Not a lot better, but better.  Unfortunately, a lot of them take more time than is practical today.  IMO there is no other book that teaches the culinary arts.  There are a lot of books and sites that are great, but none as concise and complete at the Joy of Cooking.

[Dervacumen]

Although, I might think Americans see German bread as medical stuff for obese-treatment or so, not food.

BTW, I don't get it . . .

I believe Blanka refers to German bread because it is generally dense, hearty and almost a meal unto itself.  American bread is generally lighter and fluffy and without substance or weight, so we consume it without thought.  It's pretty easy to chow down on it if you don't feel it in your gut.  You probably wouldn't find Wonder bread in Germany.

If I were to live on bread and water, I would hope I got to eat German bread.  It's super yummy but very filling so you only eat it in small amounts.  That's why Blanka would call it a diet bread in the U.S.
Just guessing, could be wrong.

[ChadTower]

I just throw some flour/yeast/water/etc into my breadmaker and come back in 3 hours.   

Does your breadmaker have a baguette setting? 

Nope.  Just gold old American rectangular loaves from a stainless steel box.  None of that long phallic stuff.  Ned Flanders doesn't allow footlongs and neither do I.

[shmokes]

IMO there is no other book that teaches the culinary arts.

A totally different bird, but you might be interested in On Food and Cooking: The Science and Lore of the Kitchen. I've started reading it recently. It's amazing. It's essentially a dual course in chemistry and history, restricted exclusively to food. It's incredibly in depth. I've been reading it every night before I go to bed for weeks and I'm still on the first chapter, Milk (though admittedly I frequently go to bed so late that I only read a couple of pages before I'm ready to sleep). But I know A LOT about milk, lol.

What I love about this book, though, is that it doesn't teach recipes. It teaches you how food works--what happens on a molecular level to various proteins and fats when you heat or stir or freeze various foods. I think it'll make getting excellent results from recipes, and more mportantly improving on and inventing recipes, much more fun and more frequently succesful.

[ChadTower]

I've read 2-3 of them specifically on BBQ and meat smoking that go to that level.  It does help quite a bit to understand what is really going on.

[Hoopz]

IMO there is no other book that teaches the culinary arts.

A totally different bird, but you might be interested in On Food and Cooking: The Science and Lore of the Kitchen. I've started reading it recently. It's amazing. It's essentially a dual course in chemistry and history, restricted exclusively to food. It's incredibly in depth. I've been reading it every night before I go to bed for weeks and I'm still on the first chapter, Milk (though admittedly I frequently go to bed so late that I only read a couple of pages before I'm ready to sleep). But I know A LOT about milk, lol.

What I love about this book, though, is that it doesn't teach recipes. It teaches you how food works--what happens on a molecular level to various proteins and fats when you heat or stir or freeze various foods. I think it'll make getting excellent results from recipes, and more mportantly improving on and inventing recipes, much more fun and more frequently succesful.

Try this one out:

http://www.amazon.com/Modernist-Cuisine-Art-Science-Cooking/dp/0982761007

It's the cookbook from the CTO at Microsoft and really goes deep into every aspect of cooking and the science behind it.  With a price tag approaching $500, it's an investment....

I've read 2-3 of them specifically on BBQ and meat smoking that go to that level.  It does help quite a bit to understand what is really going on.

BBQ is smoking meat.  You know that!  Grilling is not BBQ.   

[shmokes]

Your book's Amazon page features this quote from the author of my book:

"Modernist Cuisine is a landmark contribution to the craft of cooking and our understanding of its underlying principles. Its scale, detail, and eye-opening graphics are unmatched by any other book on the subject. It will be an invaluable resource for anyone with a serious interest in cooking techniques, whether the professional innovations of the last few decades or the long traditions on which they build." --Harold McGee

Based on what I've read of his so far, that is a huge compliment.

Still, though, $500.

[Hoopz]

Still, though, $500.

Yep.   

<cough>torrent!<cough>

[Hoopz]

Chad, you may be interested in this:

http://www.amazon.com/Charcuterie-Craft-Salting-Smoking-Curing/dp/0393058298/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1327943998&sr=8-1

I got that about a year ago and it's extremely interesting.  If you are interested in curing your own meats, it's a good book to start with.  I thought it was a natural transition from smoking meat to curing.

[Dervacumen]

Shmokes, Nice suggestion.  I'm guessing I've learned a lot about chemistry, history and food through continuous study and application over the years but I like a good read.  I just picked up two books that I need to get though before I take on another, though.

[Vigo]

A totally different bird, but you might be interested in On Food and Cooking: The Science and Lore of the Kitchen. I've started reading it recently. It's amazing. It's essentially a dual course in chemistry and history, restricted exclusively to food. It's incredibly in depth. I've been reading it every night before I go to bed for weeks and I'm still on the first chapter, Milk (though admittedly I frequently go to bed so late that I only read a couple of pages before I'm ready to sleep). But I know A LOT about milk, lol.

Never read that book, but I have to agree with you that knowing the chemistry and theory of cooking is far more important than knowing recipes. I worked in a kitchen through high school and college, but it wasn't until after i got through my food science courses in college that I suddenly just understood cooking. I didn't need recipes anymore, I could just cook from instinct. Not saying it always worked out and tasted good, but i understood how to make things. For most things, I could just make my own version of whatever I wanted to cook.

I know it bugs my wife when she has to look forever for a perfect recipe to make something different when cooking, and when I want to make something new, I just wander in the kitchen and go at it. 

[ChadTower]

BBQ is smoking meat.  You know that!  Grilling is not BBQ.   

BBQ is smoking meat but all smoking meat is not BBQ. 

[Vigo]

Way to go, now you've gotten German Bill Cosby all excited...

[Hoopz]

Time to derail this thread and bring up the Bacon Explosion again?

Nah, I'll play nicely this time.   

[ChadTower]

Have you ever made something like that?  I did once.  ONCE.  It seems awesome until you try to eat it.  4 bites in everybody was all greasy and bloated and we ran out of paper towels.  So much grease.  It was actually sort of nasty.

[Hoopz]

I made it once too.  It was good and I didn't think it was that greasy.  Not something I have on the menu cycle but I'd try it again sometime.  Odds are that I didn't follow the recipe to the letter though.

[ChadTower]

Nothing you smoke at ~225 degrees and has 4lb of bacon on it is going to be anything but huge ball of grease.  That's just not hot enough to crisp anything up.

[Hoopz]

I grilled it instead of smoking it.  I think that makes a huge difference.

[ChadTower]

It would, yes, because the temp is probably way higher.

[Vigo]

I am just wonder how you managed to not turn it into a giant bacon fireball. That much grease dripping would have absolutely ignited the thing on my grill.

[Hoopz]

I am just wonder how you managed to not turn it into a giant bacon fireball. That much grease dripping would have absolutely ignited the thing on my grill.

Zones, drip pan etc.

And isn't your grill used by your neighbors?  Can you really call it "my" grill anymore?   

[Vigo]

Gotcha!, That takes planning ahead, it might be asking too much out of me.

And isn't your grill used by your neighbors?  Can you really call it "my" grill anymore?   

sigh....yeah, "the community grill". Thankfully it all stopped when i didn't refill the propane, although I think someone recently was touching my grill again, as my grill cover was ripped into two pieces. I guess it could be an animal though.

[Hoopz]

Gotcha!, That takes planning ahead, it might be asking too much out of me.

And isn't your grill used by your neighbors?  Can you really call it "my" grill anymore?   

sigh....yeah, "the community grill". Thankfully it all stopped when i didn't refill the propane, although I think someone recently was touching my grill again, as my grill cover was ripped into two pieces. I guess it could be an animal though.

Man, that's got to be annoying.  It's probably a bad joke for me to make because I know it would drive me crazy if someone used my grill.

[Donkbaca]

homeless people need to cook somewhere...

[Vigo]

Man, that's got to be annoying.  It's probably a bad joke for me to make because I know it would drive me crazy if someone used my grill.

Heh, no worries! Yeah it is super annoying though. I find myself randomly jumping out my house trying to find the grill fiend. I had a motion light in my driveway, but cranked the sensor back towards the grill so I notice any movement back there. I am bumping up my battle plan come this spring.

[Vigo]

My garage is really more just a large shed, it would smoke up right away if I used it inside there. If I want to wheel it in and out, it is a PITA. It has a 1 foot hump to get in through the side door, and the front uses large barn doors that I have to back my car out from the driveway to get open.

[Dervacumen]

I wonder if there's a way to put a keyed shut off valve in line on the propane line so you can just turn it on and off with a key?  I came home after a couple days away and saw a package of hot dogs in my fridge.  Then I went to the freezer and saw two more packages, and I'm thinking: that's weird, what's with all the hotdogs?  Then I read this.  And isn't today groundhog day? 

[Gray_Area]

Huh?

Poor attempt at a lawyer joke.

I got it right off.

The French are a lovely people. But everyone visits Paris and assumes that's how the whole country is.

I've heard that the French think the same about Americans visiting their country.....

[shmokes]

What, bases their opinion of Americans in general on the behavior of American tourists? Yes and no. The French, like Americans, don't leave the country when they travel as much as people in other countries. So a lot of their exposure to other cultures comes from the tourists coming into their country. But in the case of Americans they also get a heavy dose of our pop culture thanks to the worldwide success of Hollywood and American music. And the power and influence of our country means a lot of news coverage of America too. So they actually have a bit more to go off of than just tourists, though I suppose it's an open question whether Hollywood can be considered "more".