My Scanline Quest

[gamepimp]

I have a showcase cabinet that has a rather large monitor (50" LCD) which runs at 1920x1080. For MAME, I use the scanline artwork that overlays on the screen to create the scanline effect. The scanlines are nice and thin and look great. However, when I run other emulators for console games (Nestopia, KEGA Fusion, SNES9X, etc.) the scanlines are thick and look unnatural. I thought I could use MESS as an alternative for consoles so that I could get the same nice scanline effect that MAME has. But it's not perfect for many systems and the cheat system doesn't work unless the games are in the format of the software lists. Has anyone found a way to get consistently thin, natural looking scanlines on most popular emulators?

[the_gamer]

There is hardware which does a really good job at creating scanlines. Sadly I don't know if those work with lightguns

[BadMouth]

I haven't used these, but have thought about adding it to my current build after absolutely everything else is done.

Rather long-winded demonstration of the SLG3000 Scanline Generator:
(I think he finally turns it on around the 9:30 mark)


Comparison of it and Toodles Scanline Generator:
http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/t-slg-toodles-scanline-generator-authentic-retro-look-from-your-modern-flatscreen.145407/
(haven't seen that one for sale anywhere)

Light Guns don't work with LCD screens anyway.
IR guns do, but they wouldn't be affected by anything you do to the screen.

[Howard_Casto]

IR guns do, but they wouldn't be affected by anything you do to the screen.

Actually this isn't quite the case. 

I found this out the hard way with my wiimote experimentation.  Emulators generally calculate lightguns by treating them as a mouse... in other words the x-y value of the "pointer" in relation to the game's screen bounds calculates position.  Any kind of screen effects distort the game's video... things can get slightly moved up/down ect....  Well the emulator's gun position code doesn't account for this distortion. 

In other words screen effects don't effect the gun, but they DO effect your perception of where objets are on the screen.  The altered rendering makes an object look like it's at A,A  when it's really at B,B with the effects turned off (which is what the emulator goes by). 

I don't think it would be a huge issue with just a simple scanline pattern, but be aware that it does indeed effect ir guns. 

[gamepimp]

I actually bought the SLG-3000 hoping it would give me the perfect scanlines I was looking for. Unfortunately, VGA doesn't look as good on the HDTV than HDMI. Also, I couldn't seem to get it to work at 1920x1080 resolution. From what I understand, it really only supports lower resolutions. I think I need some sort of software solution.

I don't have a light gun for my machine. But would ideally like to add one someday. Hopefully the scanlines that I currently have thanks to MAME and MESS scanline filters won't interfere...

[mike boss]

 I picked up two of the T-SLG (Toodles scan line generator).
Got one for my DK cabinet with 60 in 1 and another for my DK JR vert MAME cabinet.
Plug n play they look ok. Price was good.
I want to play with the adjustments to make it a more pronounced effect, all be it I have not done that yet.


All in all I'm happy with them.

[mike boss]

The T-SLG I got from God Like Controls.
Don't know the site off hand, when you type it in google it comes up.

[gamepimp]

Thx for the info on the T-SLG device. I'll check it out!

[mike boss]

The only thing I would like to do is just tweak the settings on the T-SLG a lil.
I'd like it to be a little more pronounced on my monitor.
The only issue is I can't get my wife to stand in front of an aracde for 5 minutes and lend me her eyes ! I'll need to wait til I have some of the guys over and they can help me.

But as I said prior, price, shipping, all in all I'm happy with the look and function of the product.

[johnm]

http://www.brunofreitas.com/node/36

Bootsector(a member here) now sells an updated version of his vga scanline generator(version 1 still available), where his version differs from other SLG's is it can produce scanlines at different levels by inverting the vsync signals. Price is in Brazillian reais so looks a bit expensive.

[mike boss]

That write up reads a lot like the T-SLG product.
It even says : - Toodles for some improvements over the original circuit
(Toodles as far as I know being the T in T-SLG)

Is it me, I don't see the price.
Whats the price in US dollars ?

[johnm]

It looks like toodles because both are based on the same discovery by  Korean user  sharksym  http://sharksym.egloos.com/4930096

If you dont mind a bit of soldering you could make your own http://www.mmmonkey.co.uk/console/other/vga-scanlines.htm but with this one you dont get scanlines at odd screen resolutions or if you can decipher board layouts in eagle viewer download the schematics at the link i gave previous.

The price is shown when you click the shopping cart, this takes you to Brunos webstore where he sells ver 1 and 2 of the retroVGA as well as his keyboard encoders.  http://shop.brunofreitas.com/

For currency conversion check with paypal but it's roughly $1 to $2BRL so in effect 1/2 what you see on the screen.

[Gray_Area]

The price is shown when you click the shopping cart, this takes you to Brunos webstore where he sells ver 1 and 2 of the retroVGA as well as his keyboard encoders.  http://shop.brunofreitas.com/

For currency conversion check with paypal but it's roughly $1 to $2BRL so in effect 1/2 what you see on the screen.

---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, that makes the generator around twenty bucks. I don't have a need for one...but maybe I should buy one.

[johnm]

I've spoken to Bootsector he's happy to answer any question about his retroVGA, he now doesn't sell his stuff direct but you can still buy his products from his friends webstore. http://www.faiscaefumaca.com.br/ , it looks to be under maintainance at the moment but it gives an option for dollars.

[edekoning]

It's been in maintenance for some time now, so I send them an email about it. This was their reply:

"We are currently out of stock.
The webshop will be online again in Oct. 30 with some products in stock.

I'll send you an email when this occurs.
Thanks for patience."

Just a few more days 

[mike boss]

In MAME you can add your own scanline effect, I think it looks good.
Really good to be honest! (that's my honest opinion)
In my case however I was using an older P4 machine and it slowed the machine down a ton !
Granted that is MAME only and does not solve the issue of all programs/emulators used/displayed on a cabinet/PC.

With the T-SLG I will say I was happy with the price, the shipping, the results.
I do have to modify it so the effect is more pronounced, but that is no fault of the T-SLG, every monitor is different.

Locally I am a member of a fprum where a debate raged on recently of LCD vs good old CRT monitors. It was heated ! Honestly !
I myself like LCD, ease of use, weight, availability, cost, etc etc etc.
One of the faults people brought up was lack of authenticity ! I feel the T-SLG can resolve that for many. Infact a buddy of mine who was CRT all the way was conviced by myself to try an LCD with his Arcade VGA and the scanline effect................needless to say he is now sold on this great simple option !

Sort of off topic I know, but I bring it up that MAME itself offers options to provided the desired effect and the T-SLG is a great way to give anything hooked up to your LCD that look should you desire.

[edekoning]

The RetroVGA is now back in stock for 20 USD, and the RetroVGA2 for 32 USD. The only differences seems to be that the latter allows you adjust the intensity of the scanlines. not sure if that's useful or worth the 12 USD premium.

http://faiscaefumaca.com.br/retro/retrovga

Sort of off topic I know, but I bring it up that MAME itself offers options to provided the desired effect and the T-SLG is a great way to give anything hooked up to your LCD that look should you desire.

I understand where you are comming from. For me personally I just want to compare the software vs hardware approaches with MAME and various other emus.

[gamepimp]

Has anyone tried the RetroVGA or T-SLG scanline generators on a large format TV at 1920x1080? My problem is that the SLG-3000 I bought cannot produce scanlines at that resolution when run between my PC and a Samsung 50" LCD TV. So I'm concerned that the RetroVGA or T-SLG (which apparently is out of stock at the moment) cannot make scanlines at that resolution either. I can get perfect scanlines in MAME using the old scanline filter effect. But I can only use that effect in MAME or MESS and not in other emulators (Nestopia, ZSNES, etc.). And as most people probably know, MESS does not always do that great of a job emulating consoles. I was hoping someone had a software solution that would give thin scanlines to any of the other emulators out there besides MAME/MESS. But I'm afraid I might be sore out of luck on my quest...

[johnm]

Bootsector found that at resolutions other than 640x480@60Hz and 1024x768@60Hz, the SLG3000 and earlier T-SLG's only made the screen darker, at those resolutions  VSYNC is normally high and VSYNC pulses go low, but at other resolutions, VSYNC is low and pulses go high. adding a switch to invert the VSYNC signal makes the SLG work on resolutions other than 640x480@60Hz or 1024x768@60Hz.

http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/t-slg-toodles-scanline-generator-authentic-retro-look-from-your-modern-flatscreen.145407/page-8#post-6184748

[edekoning]

I believe the RetroVGA also targets higher resolutions such as 1920x1200. The main problem with higher resolutions is that the scanlines are too thin. That's why the RetroVGA has a switch to draw single or double (thicker) scanlines. It also has the previously mentioned 'invert vsync' option.

[mike boss]

In MAME the other day I was playing around with the "scanlines."  Modified the ini file so EFFECT was changed from NONE to SCANLINES (lowercase).
I had the resolution set to 800x600 - it looks good, the higher the res, the less the effect was evident. However (and this could just be myself), be it the scanlines in MAME or the scanline generator the effect is quite minimal. Is that just me ?

I know the hype, I know the authenticity appeal, but really, I find I really need to look ?
Now I'm sure I could configure it more, but then I feel the overall picture would be compromised.

Thoughts ?

[gamepimp]

The scanline effect using the "scanline" .png file probably doesn't show up very well on a smaller monitor. But it's absolutely perfect on a large format LCD (mine is 50" in a showcase style cab). Unfortunately all the standard scanline filters in other emulators look way too thick and artificial. The subtle effect in MAME/MESS gives just enough scanline to make the graphics on these older games from looking blocky and pixelated. The only problem using MESS for consoles is that it doesn't emulate all systems 100%. Plus it has issues using cheats and saving games. That's why I was looking for an alternative. Still contemplating buying the Arcade VGA device to see if that might give me a hardware option...

[CraftyMech]

I'd heard of the T-SLG, but not the RetroVGA until this thread. Seems like they all do roughly the same thing in their latest incarnations (switch to change sync polarity, switch for thick/thin scan lines). I just built my own DIY version w/ adjustable scan line intensity, but without the switches for line thickness or sync polairity. I was interested to see how compact I could make the design, and I still think it could shrink by about 1/3. I'm thinking of something just a little bit larger then a VGA gender changer, so the device is more of just a coupling between connectors, and unobtrusive. Altering the basic design to auto switch between sync polarities would also get rid of that extra switch, although I'm using mine for 640x480, it would be nice to know it would work at higher resolutions as well.

[edekoning]

Well I have ordered a RetroVGA2, and I should receive it within a week or so. I'll be testing it on a 24" dell lcd that runs 1920*1200 and post the results here.

[gamepimp]

I also bit the bullet and ordered the RetroVGA 2. I am going to be using it on a 50" Samsung LCD. So we'll see how it performs. Fingers crossed that it does what I'm looking for it to...

[craigmclark]

How'd the Retro VGA 2 work out? Can it handle higher resolutions just fine?

[gamepimp]

Yes. I must say I'm extremely pleased with how the scanlines produced by the RetroVGA2 device look on the monitor. They're almost the same thickness as the scanline effect from MAME/MESS. And I can turn it on or off at will. Best of all, even my frontend will have scanlines. The only downsides are that a) my monitor does not have a VGA port so I have to use a VGA to HDMI converter and b) the resolution of the VGA is not as sharp as HDMI. So when the scanline effect is turned off, the picture isn't quite as clear and sharp. Maybe Bruno will consider making a HDMI version of this device one day...

[edekoning]

I only did a minimal test to see if it was working, but I found it works just fine on my 24"@1920x1200. And yes the picture is more blurry compared to hdmi/dvi when turned off. But then why would you want to turn it off?

[gamepimp]

The computer in my cab is also used for other purposes. So I turn off the scanlines when I'm not gaming. 

[edekoning]

Ah ok, but in my cab I will need to get busy with a screw driver to reach the SLG. So I will either leave it on always or just remove it completely.

[BadMouth]

I'm curious as to how these look.
Can either of you get decent pics of the scanlines on high def resolutions?

[gamepimp]

I'll see if I can get a decent pic this wknd for ya.

[clickybuttons]

Awesome update with this Retro thing....

Question, gang.... in MamePlus! 0.138 (the GUI version 1.5)... it has options for ScanlinesTV and other image enhancements. Thing is, no matter what I choose, I see no difference on my LCD. Is there anything I'm doing wrong?

Please let me know, thank you!

[mike boss]

To state a fact mentioned here prior, these generators are an amazing way to get a consistant scanline effect regardless of emulator !

Wanted to add that out of the box with my 60 in 1 board + LCD monitor the effect was nice, clear, and pronounced. I'd still like to adjust it, but with the positioning of the board in the cabinet, I can't tweak and see. Wife still wont lend me her eyes !

Now with my MAME cabinet + LCD the effect was honestly minimal.
** I should add this is no fault of the product ! Just my inability to do what is required ! **
I tried adjusting the swithces on the side to see which would provide the most intense effect.
Honestly in MAME I'm sure I've made tweaks to enhanace graphics, and didn't want to goto the trouble
of trying to figure out what I could do to decrease the graphics quality. (If you wanna call it decrease)

Anyway, just to state it should someone be like me and not want to take the 30 seconds to mess around and tweak something. When I took the 30 seconds to adjust the RGB knobs WOW ! The effect was amazing. The lines POP ! The adjustments dont take away from the picture, they just make the lines POP!

I think $20 is a great price and I think I'd like to try one the RETRO VGA.
Where do they ship from ? Being in Canada sometimes we cant win with custom and taxes (and brokerage fees)..............UGHHH....the fees !

http://faiscaefumaca.com.br/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=51

[johnm]

I think $20 is a great price and I think I'd like to try one the RETRO VGA.
Where do they ship from ? Being in Canada sometimes we cant win with custom and taxes (and brokerage fees)..............UGHHH....the fees !

http://faiscaefumaca.com.br/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=51

Brazil, postage is expensive if you're buying just one thing but then thats hardly their fault. If you're into retro gaming Bruno also developed a USB retropad where you can use the original controllers instead of usb varients, and like all Brunos stuff it's open, so if you fancy building your own all the documents are there to help you.

[gamepimp]

I'm curious as to how these look.
Can either of you get decent pics of the scanlines on high def resolutions?

I tried to get some decent pics with my phone's camera last night. But unfortunately it seemed to pick up the monitor's refresh and they came out looking awful and not at all representative of how the scanlines appear in person. Sorry about that...

[mike boss]

I'm trying to sell all my buddies (purists!) on LCD + scanline generators as a great way to get the retro look simplistically.
I snapped some pictures that I'll post here shortly.

I did however get a gender changer off eBay for like a buck or two to bridge together two VGA cables.
I found I was having an issue with the connection somewhat loose and showing major onscreen distortion.
Adding this helped me out.