MK Arcades coming for 10 bucks..

[Donkbaca]

Just announced, Mortal Kombat Kollection will be DLC in August.  about 10 bucks gets you MK, MKII and UMK3.  They are said to be arcade perfect ports.

What do you guys think?

It really seems to me that there has been a LOT of old arcade, and arcade like games popping up, that have been priced fairly decently.  10 bucks for three games? 

What do you guys think this all means for retro gaming and MAME?

[Malenko]

Sounds cheaper then the arcade cabs and PCBs I bought :p

[Donkbaca]

How good do you think they will be?

Do you think this arcades on consoles movement will spark any more interest in BYOAC?  I haven't played Mk9 with control pads, couldn't imagine doing it with them.

[shateredsoul]

Uhm, so wasn't part of mame's rule to not emulate games that were still making a profit? or to preserve games because game companies weren't doing it themselves? Sooo, what happens when games get re-released and are making a profit for game companies as retro game releases? Bet they don't get taken out  .  I just wonder how this will affect mame in terms of game companies starting to get annoyed. It seems like mame and developers have a really good relationship (or at least they leave each other alone).

or was that just peoples arguments that I just read?

[Donkbaca]

I am not 100% sure, a mame dev or one of the old moon patrol and centipede loving farts would probably know better as towards the original wink and nod agreement, but i think the deal is that they only emulate arcade games that are no longer profitable.  As far as I know, things like this wouldn't be a game changer, because the arcade hardware- which is what MAME is trying to emulate- is different than the hardware that is being used for these games -consoles-.  Also the game play may be the same, but the new kollection will have all sorts of nifty features - online vs play - that aren't present in the arcade.  Could be a landmine, but I doubt it.

I am just wondering if things like this will decrease interest on MAME dev side. 

I am also wondering if this will inspire more people to build their own 360 or ps3 cabinets.

I really think Saint's next book should have a console cab section.

[Bootay]

...one of the old moon patrol and centipede loving farts would probably know better...

You just can't let this go can you? LOL

[Mikezilla]

...one of the old moon patrol and centipede loving farts would probably know better...

You just can't let this go can you? LOL

Beat me too it Bootay, I was going to say the same thing, but I was agreeing with Donk. Thought that was funny. 

[Donkbaca]

Never really got into MK3.  Love the new one.  

Hey, I'm just stating my limitations as towards what went on in the earlier days of MAME.  

[Bootay]

Just because one person said you didn't know what you are talking about because you don't like Moon Patrol and Centipede doesn't mean it's true. No one should be judged on what games they like/dislike, that's just stupid. 

[Donkbaca]

I think the hobby is expanding.  I was going to say changing, but there will always be the forty something nerd ecstatic over making a dedicated centipede cab all minty again, and there will be people who just want a joystick, a hacked PS3 a big TV and Final Burn Alpha.  I think SFIV started it all, with its dedicated joystick.  Yes I know there were fight sticks around before SFIV, but SF is one of those games that is best played with six buttons and a stick, and the mad catz tournament stick, with Sanwa parts really was the first instance, in my mind, where a modern console game was made where the controls of the game were made out to be integral to the enjoyment of the game itself and where the it was important to point out that the interface was an arcade one.  You can see this trend continue with the MK game, where the MK stick is touted to be made with genuine arcade parts.  I think there is a clamoring out there for replicating that arcade feel.  In any case, this is a whole new market of people that could easily be brought into our hobby..... and some of them might even like centipede...

[Howard_Casto]

Just because one person said you didn't know what you are talking about because you don't like Moon Patrol and Centipede doesn't mean it's true. No one should be judged on what games they like/dislike, that's just stupid. 

No they should absolutely be judged based on what games they like/dislike.  Just for the record though, Moon Patrol and Centipede aren't all that great.  They aren't bad either, but in terms of other 80's games they are no pac-man or digdug. 

[Donkbaca]

I think I should build a dedicated moon patrol/centipede cab, but I don't think I have enough turds lying around to complete it...

[Howard_Casto]

Uhm, so wasn't part of mame's rule to not emulate games that were still making a profit? or to preserve games because game companies weren't doing it themselves? Sooo, what happens when games get re-released and are making a profit for game companies as retro game releases? Bet they don't get taken out  .

Shut up, you.

I am just wondering if things like this will decrease interest on MAME dev side. 

MAME's dead unless you like mah jong.


$10 isn't too bad for two decent games.  Thankfully the new Mortal Kombat game on Xbox 360 chunks most of the MK3 nonsense to the background.  I had forgotten how stupid everything about MK3 was.

You aren't going to start this again are you?

All other emulators would cease to exist or at the very best be cruddy and inaccurate without MAME's constant, albeit slow, progress.  

It's common sense why a lot of mame's games are mahjong.... each mahjong pcb had like 500 games programmed for it... you get one working and you can emulate the other 499 without effort.  

[Bootay]

Donk: Yep...I agree. There are different kinds of gamers. I am not an old, nerdy, 40 something and I like dedicated classics (including Moon Patrol..not Centipede that much), but also don't feel it is the only way to go. Everyone is different.

[Howard_Casto]

Just announced, Mortal Kombat Kollection will be DLC in August.  about 10 bucks gets you MK, MKII and UMK3.  They are said to be arcade perfect ports.

What do you guys think?

It really seems to me that there has been a LOT of old arcade, and arcade like games popping up, that have been priced fairly decently.  10 bucks for three games? 

What do you guys think this all means for retro gaming and MAME?

Not much... how the consoles define "retro gaming" consists of trying to squeeze a few bucks out of kids with some points left on their account by releasing rushed ports of games that came out 10 years before they were born.  Generally speaking these kids play the games a couple of times and that's the end of it.  Kids toady are just spoiled.  Back in my day games were on Carts.... and they cost 80 bucks.... and we had to walk uphill both ways in the snow to buy them... now they just get every game in existance over those tube thingys... it's not right I tell you!!!!  (*shakes cane*)

I've yet to find an arcade perfect port released on the 360.  Some are running on emulators and are pretty darn close but they always screw it up somehow with a crazy bezel, some sort of screen filter, disabling the coin up buttons, ect....  Usually the controls kill it though.  Console gamepads make most arcade games unplayable and the dlc versions rarely let you remap the controls... meaning you would pretty much have to make a custom stick for each title or play it with the buttons improperly arranged.  

It doesn't effect mame/pc emulators at all.  I pc-based rig just gives you more control over what you want.  You decide the GUI, you decide the control layout, you decide which games you want to play ect....  Consoles have a lot of catching up to do before they would be a viable alternative.  

[Howard_Casto]

And one more post......

Those games in particular are being bundled so cheaply because WB just bought all of midway's assets and they are trying to make them work for them.  They just released a brand new MK, so it makes sense to cross-promote by also releasing MK t-shirts, the two MK films on blu-ray and the old games at the same time.  In terms of us getting more quality "midway" titles out there this could only be a good thing as they are making as much money as possible off of a big release and it ensures that they will want to invest more time and money on NR studios. 


That being said, they aren't THAT cheap.  That's 3 bucks and change per game, which is about what you would pay for a console port in the bargain bin.

[Donkbaca]

yeah, but the console ports were utter garbage... and that is if you have the old consoles around... 

[Howard_Casto]

yeah, but the console ports were utter garbage... and that is if you have the old consoles around... 

Let me fix that for you...

yeah, but the SEGA console ports were utter garbage....

The snes/n64 ports of the games were quite good. 

[Donkbaca]

The original Mk on the SNES was utter, utter garbage, glitchy as all hell, couldn't even pull off the same combos, and if you got someone in the corner, it was all over...

[DaveMMR]

The original Mk on the SNES was utter, utter garbage, glitchy as all hell, couldn't even pull off the same combos, and if you got someone in the corner, it was all over...

Good thing no one was playing it since they had taken out all the blood and fatalities...

MKII, OTOH, was quite well done on the SNES.

[CheffoJeffo]

  I think SFIV started it all, with its dedicated joystick.  Yes I know there were fight sticks around before SFIV, but SF is one of those games that is best played with six buttons and a stick, and the mad catz tournament stick, with Sanwa parts really was the first instance, in my mind, where a modern console game was made where the controls of the game were made out to be integral to the enjoyment of the game itself and where the it was important to point out that the interface was an arcade one. 

while I agree that all optunities to seduce people into the arcade world are great, only a true noob ... Or moron ... Would think that SFIV was the beginning. It may be where YOU heard about it, but it was around long before you (or even this 43 year old Moon Patrol lover) stumbled across the scene.

[Donkbaca]

Okay smarty pants.
When did it start?

[Howard_Casto]

The original Mk on the SNES was utter, utter garbage, glitchy as all hell, couldn't even pull off the same combos, and if you got someone in the corner, it was all over...

Good thing no one was playing it since they had taken out all the blood and fatalities...

MKII, OTOH, was quite well done on the SNES.

I did... let's see a near arcade perfect port with good sound and good graphics vs one with a 8bit color pallette and tinny sound... but it had "gasp" red sweat instead of grey.  Yeah I'll stick with the snes port. 

The fact that the game played differently from the arcade version didn't mean that it was glitchy or played badly.  It was just a different game.  Better than the arcade version imho.  Btw... there weren't any combos in MKI... only those crazy people who play a game to death used any kind of combos (which were actually glitches in the arcade version that were removed in the snes port) in MKI. 

That being said, nobody ever went back to MKI once MKII was released anyway, so I don't even count that one. 

[Howard_Casto]

Okay smarty pants.
When did it start?

I'll answer this one.... WICO, now (and even then) popular for arcade parts released versions of their arcade trackballs and joysticks for the atari 2600 and c64.  That was when it started. 

If you don't count that then full-blown arcade cabinets using a NES and the nes advantage "arcade sticks" were popping up as early as the late 80's. 

[Vigo]

If you don't count that then full-blown arcade cabinets using a NES and the nes advantage "arcade sticks" were popping up as early as the late 80's.  

Heh, I just scanned a page of my July/August 1989 copy of Nintendo power. A fine example of an early home arcade cabinet. Actually...it was even built by a BOYAC member.
 

[DaveMMR]

The original Mk on the SNES was utter, utter garbage, glitchy as all hell, couldn't even pull off the same combos, and if you got someone in the corner, it was all over...

Good thing no one was playing it since they had taken out all the blood and fatalities...

MKII, OTOH, was quite well done on the SNES.

I did... let's see a near arcade perfect port with good sound and good graphics vs one with a 8bit color pallette and tinny sound... but it had "gasp" red sweat instead of grey.  Yeah I'll stick with the snes port. 

The fact that the game played differently from the arcade version didn't mean that it was glitchy or played badly.  It was just a different game.  Better than the arcade version imho.  Btw... there weren't any combos in MKI... only those crazy people who play a game to death used any kind of combos (which were actually glitches in the arcade version that were removed in the snes port) in MKI. 

That being said, nobody ever went back to MKI once MKII was released anyway, so I don't even count that one. 

I was of course exaggerating by saying "no one played it" but the fact remains that the Genesis version outsold the SNES version by a decent ratio.  It was enough that Nintendo actually CHANGED their policies on blood/violence (this was before the ESRB ratings) for the release of MKII.

You, personally, were able to look past the removals of fatalities which is fine, but compared to SFII, it had little else going for it in terms of game play. Gamers actually flocked to the ugly version just so they can uppercut their opponent's head off instead of the relatively lame swift kick to the chest. 

But yeah, no one really counts MKI anymore when they go back to the old games.  It was grossly inferior on all platforms to MKII.  To me, that's the definitive one (though I'm not a big MK fan anyhow).

[Donkbaca]

If you read my post I am talking about the start of the recent trend.  By trend I mean, of course more than one instance.  I know there were other controllers released in the past, but a one off deal a hundred years ago does not mean its a trend.  If this indeed was the start of a trend, I would expect a chain of similar releases leading up until now.  Let me explain what I am thinking more clearly.

Street fighter 4 licenses its property to Mad Catz, which produces, among other things, its Tournament Edition fight stick, which has as its selling point the fact that it uses genuine Sanwa parts, to capture the arcade experience..  Yes there have been niche marketers that make arcade stick that have been around for a while, yes there have been controllers marketed with games before, but this is the first instance of the recent trend where you have a game with the marketing message being, the BEST way to enjoy this game is with this controller, which is what you find in an arcade.  Then you have the Mortal Kombat Fight Stick.  Its selling point is that it has genuine arcade parts.  Now you have ANOTHER Mortal Kombat fight stick coming out that is being marketed with the DLC coming out this summer.  Look the whole "arcade at your home" deal has been around forever in home console marketing, but there has been a very real, very recent marketing push where the game makers are saying, controls matter, and more specifically, arcade authentic controls matter.  I never claimed that Street Fighter IV was the first time that arcade controls were EVER marketed with a game, rather my point is that we have  renewed focus on genuine arcade controls, and this is being main stream marketed to console gamers.  That I think is a rather new trend, it might be the recycling of an old trend, but its a recent trend in gaming, and as far as I can tell SFIV kicked off this latest round.

[Malenko]

as far as I can tell SFIV kicked off this latest round.

But youre still wrong. If youre talking strictly about making a gamepad/fight stick to push a game I have official Street Fighter game pads for my PS2.

What came fist, the MvC2 fight stick, the Udon Street Fighter Anniversary Stick, or the SFIV stick?

[northerngames]

for the OP i think it is great there porting more classic's that are worthwhile but dont see how these MK's would effect mame in any way shape or form now if mame only did the mk's only and nothing else it would hurt sure but there is littery thousands that will never be ported to any console any time soon and why mame is mame.

they released/ported how many space ace's mad dog's dragon's lair etc and daphne is still around and they only have a handfull and they all have been ported or at least most of them.

[amendonz]

as far as I can tell SFIV kicked off this latest round.

But youre still wrong. If youre talking strictly about making a gamepad/fight stick to push a game I have official Street Fighter game pads for my PS2.

What came fist, the MvC2 fight stick, the Udon Street Fighter Anniversary Stick, or the SFIV stick?

come on man, those other sticks/fight pads are rubbish, theres only really a couple old hori sticks that were any good before TE came along, basically before the TE someone (who wanted a quality stick) would buy one of those crappy sticks and mod them with good parts.

we all know these arcade accessories have been around for ages, just that the recent trend in quality arcade controls can largely be attributed to SF4. also, do you guys think they would have made MK9 like they did if it wasn't for SF4? i mean i guess some people liked those terrible 3d shockers.

of course theres more to it than just that, but SF4 definitely had a big influence imo

[Malenko]

come on man, those other sticks/fight pads are rubbish, theres only really a couple old hori sticks that were any good before TE came along, basically before the TE someone (who wanted a quality stick) would buy one of those crappy sticks and mod them with good parts.

Did I say they were great sticks?  If the people didnt buy them, they wouldnt keep making them, and they wouldnt have made the SFIV stick. I only got the MK stick because I really dig MK stuff. I dont even use it for MK9, but I do play final fight and stuff with it. I dont think any of the stick are worth what they sell them for.

[Howard_Casto]

we all know these arcade accessories have been around for ages, just that the recent trend in quality arcade controls can largely be attributed to SF4. also, do you guys think they would have made MK9 like they did if it wasn't for SF4? i mean i guess some people liked those terrible 3d shockers.

Actually, yes, yes I do.  MK9 has been in development (at least in the design stages) since 2008.  Ed Boon has wanted to get MK back to it's roots for ages, but Midway had a crappy "One MK released every year" policy to try to save the company soley with MK games.  Actually this game was supposed to be released around the time that MKvsDCU came out but midway and WB's influence had the team put it on the back-burner yet again.  MK9 actually runs on an enhanced version of the same engine. 

As for the joystick, well if you mean in the negative sense then yes, sfIV influenced it's development.  NR studios decided to do a stick in response to the crappy, japaneese sticks being the exclusive type of "arcade stick" available on the market.  They cited the hori sticks specifically as the reason to do a superior stick with genuine happ controls. 

Of course some people prefer the asian sticks and to each his own, but personally I bought the sfiv stick hoping it would be really good and found it to be so terrible that I boxed it and haven't used it since.  Balltops are annoying for fighters, the buttons are too touchy... ect....


I agree with malenko about the cost of these sticks btw, but I realize that they have to make a profit so:

1 joystick = 20 bucks
1 liscense from microsoft/sony = 10 bucks
2 interface pcb = 20 bucks
6 buttons = 12 bucks
t-molding = 5 bucks
cost to build the box = 10-15 bucks
paint and misc = 10-15 bucks

So you are around 80-90 bucks in parts and they sell them for 120.... so it isn't THAT bad. 

Of course this doesn't take into account any discounts they get on the parts, but even so we wouldn't get the discount if we were to make it from scratch.

[Malenko]

Wanna sell me your SFIV stick?

[amendonz]

the tekken sticks aren't great but will do the job, at least they're knock off jap parts, not knock off happ crap. most accounts of the PDP MK TE stick from the pros isn't the best. heres a comparison between "happ" and PDP MK TE "happ" parts...


(although that may well be a new happ)
from the page...
"There is no question that the quality of Happ parts has declined over the years. I’m not 100% sure if this joystick was actually manufactured by Suzo Happ themselves, but I am currently looking into it and will be trying to get a hold of PDP’s Senior Product Manager Gerry Block. I have never seen that type of joystick (the one used for PDP’s FightStick) at Happs, so I’m curious as to what type of joystick is used. At first I thought it was a super or ultimate, but it looks like a new version of Happs competition joystick"

http://ktownbrawlers.com/?p=155

@howardcasto yeh, it is personal opinion, but there also something to be said about 95% of the US fighting game community has switched to sanwa/seimitsu

[Howard_Casto]

@howardcasto yeh, it is personal opinion, but there also something to be said about 95% of the US fighting game community has switched to sanwa/seimitsu

Well considering 80% of the US fighting community are (UGH...) street fighter fans and they've got a serious erection for anything from the land of the rising sun I doubt it has anything to do with which one is better. 

Also keep in mind that most sticks are based on sanwa part sizes and happ controls wouldn't even fit in the boxes.  Most people don't build their stuff from scratch like we do. 

The press release talking about the stick (prior to it's release so it could have changed) said that they would be using a special, version of the happs competition. 

That being said... I don't have the TE stick nor have I ordered parts from happs in over 10 years.  That's actually a testament to their quality though... I haven't had a part go bad in over 10 years. 

[amendonz]

http://shoryuken.com/f177/check-out-my-new-arcade-stick-thread-part-deux-201537/

a LOT of fighter players make their own sticks...

[Donkbaca]

Armendonz pretty much nailed what I was talking about.  Most of the arcade sticks for consoles are cheap pieces of garbage.  SFIV licensed itself to a stick maker who made a high end stick with actual arcade parts, and WB is following that trend with the PDP sticks.  The sticks that were marketed with games before were either madactz sticks with knockoff parts, or hori sticks with hori knockoffs.  Hor does make an arcade pro stick with genuine parts, but as far as I know, it was never marketed with a game.

Tons of people make their own/mod their own sticks, Shoryuken is full of them

The Tekken sticks are wireless Hori sticks, I believe.  The Hori sticks are pretty good, they are knockoff seimitsu sticks, but they are pretty decent.  I use the Hori ex2 sticks when I play with the Xbox in my living room.    I want to get a couple of the wireless ones so that I can have a ready built solution to add 4 players to my cab, in the very, very rare event that I have 4 people that over that want to play ( I am thinking I am probably just getting these for NBA Jam).

I grew up on Happs sticks.  I don't like the looseness of Japanese sticks. However, I have become a convert to ball tops.  Really, really hate to admit it, and I also like the convex buttons.  Hate to admit that too...

[Necroticart]

I've actually found I like modded Sanwa JLF sticks all you have to do is swap in a more resistant spring and they act similar to their american and Euro counterparts. Plus I've found the Sanwa buttons make combos a lot easier to pull off given you barely need to push them to register an action.

[Howard_Casto]

Plus I've found the Sanwa buttons make combos a lot easier to pull off given you barely need to push them to register an action.

Well that's the main problem I have with them.  I'll be pressing buttons when I don't want to press them!  Much like when you are typing, I keep my fingers rested on a button at all times.  When the buttons are insainely sensitive that doesn't work so well. 

[Necroticart]

Plus I've found the Sanwa buttons make combos a lot easier to pull off given you barely need to push them to register an action.

Well that's the main problem I have with them.  I'll be pressing buttons when I don't want to press them!  Much like when you are typing, I keep my fingers rested on a button at all times.  When the buttons are insainely sensitive that doesn't work so well. 

Have you tried Seimitsu buttons they are a less sensitive to touch so you can rest your fingers on them without hitting accidental inputs.