Whats the Best LCD?

[rmusick]

Can anyone tell me the best LCD panel for playing MAME... I know all of you die hard arcade gamers say I should use an original arcade monitor,  I agree; however this is not an option.  Neither is a VGA CRT.  I do know I want it LED back lit unless there is something better..  Thanks everyone.

[torino]

Can anyone tell me the best LCD panel for playing MAME... I know all of you die hard arcade gamers say I should use an original arcade monitor,  I agree; however this is not an option.  Neither is a VGA CRT.  I do know I want it LED back lit unless there is something better..  Thanks everyone.

That's like asking "what is the best keyboard to play MAME", and stating "joystick is not an option".

CRT is an option, it's also quite affordable one, so this must be about priorities. However, to make a proper decision and sort out priorities you must know and truly understand your options, and your options are:


A.) Endure choppy animation and scroll tearing with LCDs due to their fixed refresh rate and discrepancy where most of the games run, even if only so slightly, at different refresh rate.

B.) Go for arcade or VGA CRT and enjoy smooth animation and authentic refresh rates, with the help of software like Swithres, Soft15kHz, or use DOS MAME or Advance MAME, or VAntAGE.


In other words, either suffer ruined game-play and visual artifacts, or do it properly and enjoy... unless you can find LCD that can vary refresh rate like CRTs can, then that would be the best LCD panel for multiple arcade games, that is if you can ignore, tolerate and overlook past all the other inferiorities and bogusness which come with such unwisely decision of using non-authentic hardware like LCD or keyboard to play ARCADE GAMES.


You are not really riding a motorbike if you are sitting on a bicycle, you can not be diving with snorkelling gear, nor you should try to jump out of the plane with an umbrella. Kids, there's only three ways to do things: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power way!

- Isn't that just the same as wrong way?


Yeah, but faster!

 

[rmusick]

I agree with what you are saying..
CRT is not an option for me because the fact is there is VERY limited space.  I have a VGA monitor that I would use if there was room in the cabinet.  Therefore my ONLY recourse is LCD.

[Donkbaca]

Do a search for Blanka's posts, he is sort of a lcd freak.

I say get a used 4:3 21.3 inch screen.  Pretty much all of them are good since they are pretty much all PVA or IPS screens instead of the cheap TN ones that used in most widescreens.  You can find one on ebay for like 150 -200 bucks, or if you really want a new onem you can spend the 500+ to get one.

at 21.3", all vieweable, its about the same size as 23 inch or so CRT.  Since its 4:3 you have the classic aspect ratios.  To put that in perspective, a 21.3" 4:3 is about the same height as a 26 inch widescreen.  I say that is the best option for LCD gaming.

The screen isn't huge, but its definitely big enough for a 2 player cab.  Screen size is about 17 inches wide by about 13 inches tall for reference.

[rmusick]

Thanks, Doing a search now

[skuttduck]

I picked this one up, and I've been real happy.

http://www.samsclub.com/sams/shop/product.jsp?productId=prod1270208&navAction=push#desc

Usually I play pacman, golden tee, and Mortal Kombat 2 on it.

I think of sometimes I should have gotten an arcade monitor, but it doesn't bother me.

There is a bit of detail lost when I sit down at the cabinet and look at it from an angle though. 

[Donkbaca]

Because its a TN screen.  Most TN monitors have crappy vieiwing angles top to bottom.  Plus the colors arent' true 24 bit.  How tall is it? Its probably pretty short...

Trust me, get a used 4:3 21.3"  Its the biggest 4:3 screen you can reasonably afford.  The viewing angles are great.  Mine are 176 degrees in all four directions.  Great pricture from all angles.  You won't be disappointed

[rmusick]

Ok I just jumped into a Used computer store down the street picked up a 19inch Dell.. I WILL BE RETURNING IT!  just got the specs on it.. even though it is 4:3 it has a 20ms time.. UGH!!!

[skuttduck]

Thanks Donkbaca, your talking about the TN screen, you got me looking at the original manual, and I see that the monitor has an OSD setting for sitting slightly below the viewing angle.  I'm going to try that out later tonight.

 

Rmusick, what model Dell monitor?  I always buy the Ultrasharp ones here for the office. 

[Donkbaca]

don't worry about the MS response time, response time is not the same as lag, and lag is what is most important.  If you already have it, give it a shot and see how it works for you.  People get all obsessed over things like response time and dynamic contrast ratio, when they are really pretty meaningless stats...

[Donkbaca]

Try to find a 21.3 inch. That's the biggest screen they make in 4:3.  They are moslty used for high end video and artsy fartsy stuff.  They are really good, and crazy expensive brand new, but you can find used ones for under 200 bucks. 

[rmusick]

skuttduck-It was just a standard 1905FP.  They had others but werent to impressed
Donkbaca-Got the biggest one they Had   Like I said there were others but the quality was sub-par

[amendonz]

i like the panasonic IPS Pro Panels. almost lag-free, and cheap.

[torino]

I agree with what you are saying..
CRT is not an option for me because the fact is there is VERY limited space.  I have a VGA monitor that I would use if there was room in the cabinet.  Therefore my ONLY recourse is LCD.

Is that some kind of wall-mounted cabinet? Otherwise, what kind of cabinet is that if you can't fit CRT inside?

[torino]

don't worry about the MS response time, response time is not the same as lag, and lag is what is most important.  If you already have it, give it a shot and see how it works for you.  People get all obsessed over things like response time and dynamic contrast ratio, when they are really pretty meaningless stats...

It's meaningless only if you don't know what it means.

Response time with LCDs directly translates to refresh rate, thus it's very important and meaningful property of the display, especially concerning smooth animation and scrolling, or "fluidity of movement". In other words, your PC LCD will have response time of ~17ms (1/60sec) if it has refresh rate of 60Hz, which it does, and only recent expensive LCDs intended as TV, not for PC, go for the doubles and refresh at 120Hz (100Hz PAL) or even 240Hz (200Hz PAL). Doubling refresh rates for PC is not practical, necessary or desired as it would just engage your GPU with double workload while producing questionable or little improvement in motion quality.

On the other hand varying refresh rate, say in 50-60Hz range seem technically difficult as already much effort seem to be going to make the crystals stable at one predefined frequency as it is. And so here it comes this lag or latency problem, and that's completely different thing. It happens when LCD has built in some kind of digital sampling mechanism in order to _convert, not adjust, between 50/60fps (PAL/NTSC) or smooth double scan rates by interpolating or extrapolating frames, i.e. "blur the motion" during transition from one frame to another. The delay happens as those frames need to be worked on not individually but as a collection, a sequence, so they need to be buffered first and then the process of digitally manipulating those frames takes time too, none of which is a problem if you're watching a movie, but if you're playing a game don't hope to break the world record as you will be dying before you know it, I mean literary before you even have a chance to see it, so that seems like very important and meaningful thing as well, to avoid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine

[torino]

Ok I just jumped into a Used computer store down the street picked up a 19inch Dell.. I WILL BE RETURNING IT!  just got the specs on it.. even though it is 4:3 it has a 20ms time.. UGH!!!

If you bought "TV with VGA port" as opposed to "LCD for PC", and if you live in PAL region, than that should be expected and what you need to watch TV program and DVDs.

Then, having a PC VGA port means your LCD also has that sampling mechanism I was talking about, which digitally converts 60Hz input to its internal 50Hz refresh rate (20ms), and that means you will also have some latency or lag between actual input and the time the frame gets to display due to buffering and sampling time. You got the worst possible combination, I'm sorry and I wish I was wrong, but as my mum always says - that's not very likely.

In any case, you should not trust some stranger lightly and you better test it and see for yourself. And while you at it, could you please do us a favour and go to desktop properties->monitor tab, see what Windows says about the refresh rate of your monitor? Then could you please have a game of Scramble and Moon Patrol then tell us if there is any choppiness or scroll tearing, please?


Eventually you will end up with the monitor that suits you. It's just like with girls and marriage, trying several of them before you actually settle is fun and usefully experience too, as long as you can return the monitor that is, so cheer up and always look on the bright side of life!

[VanillaGorilla]

...and THIS is how WWII started.

I love LCD's. S-IPS panels are particularly nice. You can pick up a 21.3" 4:3 Dell S-IPS display, refurb'ed for $130. Looks awesome. This hobby carries a lot of compromises, some worse than others. There are always trade offs. If you hang with it long enough, you'll end up buying dedicated arcade cabinets. I own a Scramble, simply cause I could not get over the tearing/artifacts in Mame. I also have a Defender and a 720 degrees for the same reasons. Certain games will never be good without the original hardware. But that doesn't mean you cant set up a rig with an LCD and be VERY happy.

Currently, I'm trying to source hardware for a multi vector cabinet. Anyone got a WG6100 to spare?? Talk about hens teeth.

Mame is a jack of all trades, and you know the punch line. It does a good job of covering a large base of games. It does poorly on others. If you're goal is setting world records, then I think its obvious you're gonna get the original equipment for such endeavors. Kind of a stupid argument for not using an LCD.

Sorry, but the world made a couple trips around the sun, and things changed. Get over it. Why spoil the enthusiasm for someone trying to get started?? Frankly, arcade CRT's are a pain in the ass to set up with Windows/Mame. I would never recommend one to someone entering their first rodeo. It would probably send them away crying in frustration.

[Donkbaca]

You sir are confused. Refresh rate and response time are two different things. Refresh rate is how many times per second a screen draws an image. Response time is the amount of time it takes pixels to go from an on to off state. Or at least theoretically. In other words refresh rate is how the screen processes an image and response time is how it displays it. Refresh rate is something that has a standard that can be measured against. Response time does not. Technically, to measure response time, you time how long it takes from a pixel to go from black to white to black. However, this isn't real world because usually don't go from fully on to fully of, usually pixels go from one state of gray to another. So, some display makers use this transition from one gray to another and state that as their response time. Hat is how some screens can see they are 2ms response time.  The problem is there is no standard, nobody knows from what state to what state they are measuring from, so it makes comparisons between brands impossible.  Just like dynamic contrast. Where instead of the difference between the light and dark in a picture, they measure the difference between the darkest dark a screen can produce and the lightest light, this is different for each maker, and not real world because you never have a picture like that.

Anyhow there are lots of reasons to have a LCD over a CRT, and LCD monitors are vastly superior to LCD tvs which are all pretty much cheap TN screens

[torino]

You sir are confused. Refresh rate and response time are two different things. Refresh rate is how many times per second a screen draws an image. Response time is the amount of time it takes pixels to go from an on to off state. Or at least theoretically. In other words refresh rate is how the screen processes an image and response time is how it displays it. Refresh rate is something that has a standard that can be measured against. Response time does not. Technically, to measure response time, you time how long it takes from a pixel to go from black to white to black. However, this isn't real world because usually don't go from fully on to fully of, usually pixels go from one state of gray to another. So, some display makers use this transition from one gray to another and state that as their response time. Hat is how some screens can see they are 2ms response time.  The problem is there is no standard, nobody knows from what state to what state they are measuring from, so it makes comparisons between brands impossible.  Just like dynamic contrast. Where instead of the difference between the light and dark in a picture, they measure the difference between the darkest dark a screen can produce and the lightest light, this is different for each maker, and not real world because you never have a picture like that.

It's not the same thing, it's just that minimum response time directly DETERMINES maximum refresh rate. What's the point of your copy/paste specifics if you can not see 20ms response time of that LCD rmusick bought means it's actually 50Hz (PAL) TV?

Anyhow there are lots of reasons to have a LCD over a CRT, and LCD monitors are vastly superior to LCD tvs which are all pretty much cheap TN screens

That sounds as if you are struggling to convince yourself to believe in what you are saying. So you claim there are some reasons, but that does not mean they are good, objective or logical ones, it does not mean they apply to games, or more importantly _arcade games, and also you forgot to mention what those reasons are.


Meanwhile, can you please tell us how can you ignore choppiness, tolerate tearing and overlook all the bogusness of LCD? Perhaps you are just visually numb? I'm a bit numb for audio, in that I do not care too much about sound quality, but I also do not go around suggesting people to use inferior speakers just because of my disability to differentiate and appreciate good or authentic sound, that would be quite inappropriate and silly, right?

[robertsig]

4:3 aspect ratio, S-IPS panel based LCD is your best bet.  My personal favorite is the HP LP2065.  You will have to hit eBay.

http://lcdtech.no-ip.info/en/data/lcd.panels.in.monitors.htm?sz=&tm=&sm=&res=&br=&cr=&rt=&va=&man=&typ=S-IPS&pan=&showobsolete=on

[Donkbaca]

I'm not going to get into a pissing match with someone who doesn't know the difference between response time and refresh rate. They are only somewhat related when you get to really, really high refresh rates where your ability to redraw the image bumps up against te physical limit of the screens ability to physically keep up and that's upwards if 400 hz.  And straight up refresh rates aren't going to solve tearing and artifact issues, tearing and artifacts occur whenever there is a mismatch between rates being output and rates being drawn, nine o which have to do with refresh rates.

LCDs are lighter, easier to set up, easier to maintain and some actually like LCD pictures better.

Anyhow the hp mentioned is a great 20 inch screen. Can't go wrong with it

The tearing you are talking an

[torino]

...If you hang with it long enough, you'll end up buying dedicated arcade cabinets. I own a Scramble, simply cause I could not get over the tearing/artifacts in Mame. I also have a Defender and a 720 degrees for the same reasons. Certain games will never be good without the original hardware. But that doesn't mean you cant set up a rig with an LCD and be VERY happy.

You do realize that choppiness is still there in all the other games even if you can not quite see it?

Most of the games are very accurately emulated, which means you only had to have proper monitor and with the help of utilities I mentioned above you would get smooth animation and tearing-free scroll. Try to put AdvanceMAME in those cabinets with authentic hardware and tell us if you still see any difference, ok?

Mame is a jack of all trades, and you know the punch line. It does a good job of covering a large base of games. It does poorly on others. If you're goal is setting world records, then I think its obvious you're gonna get the original equipment for such endeavors. Kind of a stupid argument for not using an LCD.

I am not breaking any world record, I will it!

Seriously though, I couldn't be bothered to play something that looks like amateur DOS game made in BASIC by 14 year old kid. When I see scroll tearing my fingers hysterically start slapping over ctrl-alt-delete, it hurts my senses, I would rather listen to sound of fingernails scraping over chalkboard.

MAME is actually pretty accurate for most games, all you need is a CRT, hello! Even a PC CRT will solve all those problems and with "natural/hardware scanlines" they can look pretty good, and very suitable actually for later hi-res games. Alternatively, you should at least find SmoothMAME or some patch that does the same thing - slows games down or speeds them up to 60Hz, that's the absolute must if you really insist to use LCD.

Why spoil the enthusiasm for someone trying to get started?? Frankly, arcade CRT's are a pain in the ass to set up with Windows/Mame. I would never recommend one to someone entering their first rodeo. It would probably send them away crying in frustration.

Lazy person, you are spoiling enthusiasm. You could just as well suggest everyone should use keyboards and not build their own arcade controls, it's EASIER! I mean really, if it is about easy and hard, why bother with joysticks, or anything, then?

Oh I can't take his money, I can't print my own money, I have to work for money. Why don't just lay down here and die?


So you build/repair a whole cabinet, you paint, you sand, you cut and drill... and do all the wiring and tedious MAME setup, just so to finish it up with half-assed "easy" solution? And what is so hard about putting CRT in cabinet as opposed to LCD? Too heavy, eh? Dude, it's skate or die! It's like that, you know?



Kids, there's only three ways to do things: the right way, the wrong way, and the VanillaGorilla way!

- Isn't that just the same as wrong way?


Yeah, but EASIER!

[VanillaGorilla]

TROLL-rino my brother, with all due respect, you are out of your depth. But you go run with that. Clearly, your attitude is doing wonders for your communications skills.

I learned to play guitar on what I now view as a piece of crap. But I learned. That motivated me to continue. I now own several vintage Gibsons, because I can appreciate them, having had the experience.

Suggesting that someone not even start until they have the 'authentic' gear is tantamount to saying you shouldn't drive a car until you can afford a BMW, [sarcasm]which I now do, suckers!. Really, all of you poseurs with lesser vehicles are completely missing the driving experience, and shouldn't even bother.[/sarcasm]

 

[torino]

I'm not going to get into a pissing match with someone who doesn't know the difference between response time and refresh rate. They are only somewhat related when you get to really, really high refresh rates where your ability to redraw the image bumps up against te physical limit of the screens ability to physically keep up and that's upwards if 400 hz. 

20ms response time of that LCD rmusick bought means it's actually 50Hz (PAL) TV - YES/NO?

LCD with ~17ms response time will have 60Hz refresh rate - YES/NO?

And straight up refresh rates aren't going to solve tearing and artifact issues, tearing and artifacts occur whenever there is a mismatch between rates being output and rates being drawn, nine o which have to do with refresh rates.

Refresh rates have nothing to do with refresh rates? Fascinating.

You are funny, I like that, but if you want to know you should start paying attention. LCD refresh rate IS the rate at which frames are being drawn, thus mismatch between LCD refresh rate, aka response time, and frequency at which frames are being delivered has EVERYTHING to do with tearing and choppiness, of course.

LCDs are lighter, easier to set up, easier to maintain and some actually like LCD pictures better.

Preference of visually numb person is not relevant. Keyboards are also lighter, easier to set up and easier to maintain, do you then recommend keyboards over building your own arcade controls as well?
 
Those are not reasons, those are lousy excuses of lazy person trying to justify poor decision and convince himself all the inferiority and bogusenss is not really that much important. Do you even ever play those games? I mean, why bother?

[VanillaGorilla]

It's gonna kill Xaiou2, but I think his trolling skills have been de-throned by Troll-rino. Or is this you Xaiou2? OH MY GOD!

[torino]

It's gonna kill Xaiou2, but I think his trolling skills have been de-throned by Troll-rino. Or is this you Xaiou2? OH MY GOD!

How do you pronounce Troll-rino?
Why not Trollino, meaning "cute little troll"?


Are you trying to avoid the subject?

You know I am right, don't you?
You feel it in your bones, admit it!