How much laminate / Cab design feedback

[ubermick]

Apologies all if this question has been asked, but a search for "laminating" gave me two results, which didn't answer my question, and a search for "laminate" gave me thousands!

So I'll be building a cabinet - actually a pair of cabinets, a friend will be building one right along with me - based on Kneivel's design, notably his Arcade Mania. (Anyone got those plans, by the way?!) After much searching we've FINALLY found 5/8" MDF, and think we'll get started with the build this weekend. Thinking further along tho, was wondering how much laminate we'll need to snag per cabinet? (Since we need to order it, and there's a 10 day lead time since nobody seems to have flat black in stock). I would imagine that each cab takes four sheets (one for each side of the sides, then using the excess for the rest of the cab) but that's chunky money at $60 a sheet, and my wife is holding the purse strings tightly on this (she knows from experience when I say "C'mon honey, it'll cost a couple hundred at most!" that it invariably doubles, and she's given me a hard ceiling of a $400 budget on this...)

**edit - rather than clog the boards with multiple threads, I wanted to add in about my initial plans, get some feedback, and hopefully suggestions on improving it **

[Epyx]

My project mentions the amount of laminate and I believe I also mention it in my lamination tutorial (both in my signature).

Using 4x8' laminate sheets you will require 2 for a full cab but will have enough left over for odds and ends projects like stand alone CPs etc.  If you are using 5x12' it can be done with 1 sheet (depending on height/width of cab.

[DNA Dan]

and she's given me a hard ceiling of a $400 budget on this...)

If that's your budget I would just paint the cabs and save your $$$ for another part of the project like the controls. Have you priced everything out already or have you practiced the line you're going to give the wife?

[Epyx]

If that's your budget I would just paint the cabs and save your $$$ for another part of the project like the controls. Have you priced everything out already or have you practiced the line you're going to give the wife?

Agreed, the laminate is a bit more expensive on your side of the pond than here even so it will likely eat up half your budget...if your budget is $400 then definitely go with paint.

[ubermick]

Well, I'm generally fairly sneaky when it comes to my projects. The $400 budget doesn't include controls or the computer, all of which I already have (or have on the way), it just applies to the cabinet. I'm figuring $100 for three sheets of 5/8" MDF, $50 per roll for laminate, (so another $100), and then the balance for marquee/CP art printing, plexi, T-molding, etc.

[DNA Dan]

Whew!  I thought you'd have some strings in there you could pull.

~$60 for 8'X4' sheet is what I was quoted for Wilsonart black laminate at Home Depot. Lowes wanted more like $70. Either case it was a special order.

Unless you have them, also account for contact adhesive, screws, any special router bits (those can be pricey), leveling feet, monitor bezel or glass, marquee light, coin door (if installing one), and a potential top fan to draw air out of the cab. It will be tight, but you can probably end up ~$400 or just over that if you do the coin door. One area to save on is control panel artwork. That stuff gets pricey really fast.

[Epyx]

One area to save on is control panel artwork. That stuff gets pricey really fast.

If you are ok with no artwork on your CP then I would suggest using some of the laminate to cover it...imo it gives it a nice sleek look and protects as well as acrylic (even better for scratch resistance).

[D_Harris]

Well, I'm generally fairly sneaky when it comes to my projects. The $400 budget doesn't include controls or the computer, all of which I already have (or have on the way), it just applies to the cabinet. I'm figuring $100 for three sheets of 5/8" MDF, $50 per roll for laminate, (so another $100), and then the balance for marquee/CP art printing, plexi, T-molding, etc.

I don't know what your location is, but where are you ordering the laminate from?

This guy is the cheapest I've found: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320451452769

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[Epyx]

Darren,

Wow that is a nice find and a hell of a good price!

[D_Harris]

Darren,

Wow that is a nice find and a hell of a good price!

It's vertical grade. And a couple of the guys I recommended it too over at KLOV are extremely pleased with it.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[ubermick]

Heya Darren. You're not from Cork, by any chance? I went to school with a Darren Harris!

I'm getting it from a local place, found it for $49.50 a sheet (plus tax) for Formica. So for two sheets, works out at about the same price as this guy (with $40 worth of shipping). Home Despot can snag me the Wilsonart for $58 a sheet. That said, didn't ask if either were vertical grade or not.

[Epyx]

That said, didn't ask if either were vertical grade or not.

For that price it's probably vertical which is what you want anyways...vertical is thinner whereas horizontal is much thicker and typically used for kitchen counters etc whereas the vertical is best used on cabinets/sides.

[D_Harris]

Heya Darren. You're not from Cork, by any chance? I went to school with a Darren Harris!

I'm getting it from a local place, found it for $49.50 a sheet (plus tax) for Formica. So for two sheets, works out at about the same price as this guy (with $40 worth of shipping). Home Despot can snag me the Wilsonart for $58 a sheet. That said, didn't ask if either were vertical grade or not.

Na, I'm not from Cork.(Wherever that is).

I assume that you are buying enough for both cabinets and have figure out the square footage and how you will cut up the laminate, correct?

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[ubermick]

Yep, the cabinet is going to be a slimmer one, 24" x 24", so should be able to get by with two sheets. One question tho, about laminating the inside edges. My friend claims (and I have no reason to doubt him) that laminating the inside prior to construction would be a mistake, since glue won't stick to formica (having never used formica before, I wouldn't know), suggesting that screws wouldn't be strong enough alone to support the battens. Me, I think that whatever about the glue, matching and trimming the formica around the inside edges would be an absolute nightmare...

Thoughts?

[DNA Dan]

I was thinking about this with my cab build as well. I don't think I would laminate both sides fully then install the battens. What I am planning on doing is all the rough wood contruction, then cut your laminate for the straight edges only (like near the monitor) but let it overhang on the leading edges, then use a trim router bit to finish the edge off. You can buy these with the guide bearing on the shank or the tip of the bit. In this case you would simply use a bit that has the bearing on the shank, so you can run the router on the outside face of the cab, but be trimming the inside edge.

The problem occurs when you have 2-3 angles that you need to cut that are interior, OR if you cannot get your router in a certain spot to complete the edge. For this I am just going to measure twice, cut once. Since the sides of a cab almost always stick out from the rest of the cab, you should have no problem finishing the facing edge.

Another thing to think about in your design for these internal laminate pieces is the one near the monitor will be concealed next to the glass. The other side near the speakers could be concealed by the speaker grill or whatever you put up there. That is probably the most obvious place you would notice any poor cuts, because you'd be looking up at it. Consider using a dremel tool to shape the laminate in those hard to reach areas.

[Epyx]

Yep, the cabinet is going to be a slimmer one, 24" x 24", so should be able to get by with two sheets. One question tho, about laminating the inside edges. My friend claims (and I have no reason to doubt him) that laminating the inside prior to construction would be a mistake, since glue won't stick to formica (having never used formica before, I wouldn't know), suggesting that screws wouldn't be strong enough alone to support the battens. Me, I think that whatever about the glue, matching and trimming the formica around the inside edges would be an absolute nightmare...

Most of us who have gone through the process would suggest/recommend you do laminate the interior first. I based my lamination on the recommendation of Martijn (Street fighter theme cab) who recommended I do the inside first. It is something I highly recommend.  Doing it after is a PITA and you only have to read his project thread to see his take on it

I have used both glue and screws in my cab and it is rock solid.    If you want to use wood glue and insist on gluing your batons directly to the MDF etc then just do your measurements ahead of time and route out the inner part of the laminate..glue it and then trim the outside but all that work really isn't necessary.

[DNA Dan]

Serious? Do you have a link to that build? I may need to re-assess my plans. It does sound easier laminating first, but if I don't know how far the monitor is going to sit, I don't want to needlessly waste material. It does sound easier as long as the wood/laminate/wood joint isn't "squishy".

[Epyx]

Here is his thread.  My thread is just in my signature but shows laminating the interior as well.

Martijn's Street Fighter Theme Build

His advice to me was actually in  PM just before I started lamination where he said:

hi,

I thought the minute i saw the cab, it looked familiar  Good luck building it Ill keep en eye out.

1 laminatin the inside pieces makes it easyier to work with, i recommend doing that, my way was hard and tough.

2 yes i did

[ubermick]

Thanks for the input fellas, looks like laminating the edges prior to assembly will be the way to go.

So on to the next step - planning the cab. I've been spending HOURS on this site, drooling over various projects, and getting all sorts of ideas. Most cabs seem to be using LuSid's as a starting point, but I really liked the look of Kneivel's cabs - the Woody and the Neon in particular. So I've come up with these plans, which are blatantly stealing from them. ANY and ALL feedback and suggestions are extremely welcome...

It's potentially wishful thinking expecting to be able to rip two sets of 24" wide pieces from one board, but they were listed as 49"x97", funnily enough. If they are 48, then the cab will be closer to 23.5" wide (plus the width of the side pieces).

[DNA Dan]

Wow. I think you have me beat by a few minutes for time most spent on this site ! There's just so much material to research and go through.

Here's some of my thoughts.
1) I particularly don't care for the top of the cab. Most cabs have a slanted top towards the back. For me, I like the interior top angle to be closer to 90 degrees. If you want to achieve this, you can simply move the speaker panel piece to the front of the cab near the marquee, then bump up the angle. IMO this looks more pleasant to the eye once the marquee is installed. (Unless of course you plan on using the top of the machine to hold your beer while playing ) Keep in mind if you flush trim any of the pieces having them laid out so close like this, the overall dimensions will be less on every piece. You may want to consider doing this so all your straight pieces make a nice seam while gluing/screwing it together.

2) I like the control panel layout, but the buttons seem a bit close for my fingers. I have huge hands, so that's just a personal thing. I am going to go with the same angle slant as you have. You might consider a single button on either side of the trackball. Missle command and centipede come to mind. No spinner? Where's the love for Tempest?

3) I am not a fan of admin buttons at all. I think using the shift function in Ipac is the only way to go. If admin buttons are a must, I would conceal them either inside the cab or somewhere below the CP. I just don't like the extra buttons.

4) Check the overall height of the CP. 34" is too low for me, but perhaps you're shorter. This is a critical dimension if you are going to stand at the machine a lot. I see how you added an extra long overhang on the CP top. That is probably a good idea for wrist comfort.

[ubermick]

Cheers for the feedback, Dan. And yeah, I think I mentioned it in my first ever post on here - this site's a blessing and a curse. My original plan was to build something EXTREMELY simple, slap a few coats of paint on there, and use an X-Arcade stick. Then I found this place, saw all the amazing builds, and immediately knew I was screwed!

1 - I hear what you're saying there, and have gone back and forth with angling the top. Then I saw Kneivel's Arcade Mania and Woody projects, and was sold:


2 - Buttons are kinda close, I agree. I think I'll use some scraps of ply I have downstairs to do a few test layouts. The one I did use tho, is copied exactly from slagcoin's panel layouts: http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/layout.html

3 - Well, there's only two admin buttons - pause and exit. The other four are for use with SK Jukebox I plan on installing.

4 - Good call on the height. I built it based on my own needs - I'm bloody short - but might wanna revise it to accommodate friends when they come over.

[DNA Dan]

What you're seeing is the perspective at how the photo was taken. If you look at complete side views of Knieval's woody in this thread http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=55789.0 you'll see that interior angle is close to a 90 degree and it's not flat on the top.

I thought something was up with all those volume buttons and such. A jukebox sounds pretty slick. I keep seeing the dollar figure going up like a gasoline pump! Start practicing those lines.

[ubermick]

Good call on that, Dan. Damnit, I thought I was gonna get away with it being nice and easy! Ah well, literally back to the drawing board, heh.

Yep, the dollar figure keeps going up and up. Doesn't help by the fact that my buttons came in today from Twisted Quarter, and the black ones are different from the orange ones, which means I gotta return 'em, or buy replacements. Grrr...   

That said, the jukebox software is free, and adding four buttons at $1.50 each to the front panel so of all the things I'm doing with the cab, that's probably the least high dollar, hehe. Now adding a spinner and optipac just so I can play Tempest..

[DNA Dan]

I am planning out my laminate and I've run into a problem. I am going to have a full swing open door on the bottom half of the cabinet. What do I do about all the sides of the door?

Has anyone ever used laminate on the edge of say 5/8" or 3/4" particle board?

What about using T-molding? I am afraid this will look silly viewing from the side.

[D_Harris]

I don't know what you're doing, but do you mean the edges as opposed to the sides? (I hope you are not thinking about putting laminate or T-Molding on the edges).

By the way. Personally, I'd put a cabinet together with screws only to make sure the fits are correct. Then I'd take it apart and laminate where I had to. 

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[DNA Dan]

Yes I meant the edge as in my second statement. Basically the kickplate area where the coin door will be is going to be a door itself. If I laminate the face, then when I open it up, I will have an edge there that should get t-molding or another piece of laminate. I am using particle board and I am unsure how fragile an "unprotected" edge is going to be. It's not like I will open and close it often, but I just want it to be a finished edge.

[D_Harris]

Yes I meant the edge as in my second statement. Basically the kickplate area where the coin door will be is going to be a door itself. If I laminate the face, then when I open it up, I will have an edge there that should get t-molding or another piece of laminate. I am using particle board and I am unsure how fragile an "unprotected" edge is going to be. It's not like I will open and close it often, but I just want it to be a finished edge.

So let me get this straight. Even though you won't be opening the door often, you are concerned that someone might bump into the edge and take a chip out? Or someone might see the unfinished edge? 

I think you're over-thinking this. And adding laminate to the edge is just one more thing to go wrong. (And "perfect" tolerances or wider than normal gaps would be needed if T-Molding, which I don't think would look good at the seam when the door is closed, or edge banding is used).

I'm guessing that you are concerned that the particle board will give the cabinet a "cheap" look. (But there is a reason for that). 

But if you are so concerned, why not smear some Bondo or wood filler on it and then sand and paint it whatever color you want. (Just don't bump into it when the door is open and mark it up). 

The only way it would look more "natural" is if you made the cabinet out of hard wood.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[SammyWI]

Yes I meant the edge as in my second statement. Basically the kickplate area where the coin door will be is going to be a door itself. If I laminate the face, then when I open it up, I will have an edge there that should get t-molding or another piece of laminate. I am using particle board and I am unsure how fragile an "unprotected" edge is going to be. It's not like I will open and close it often, but I just want it to be a finished edge.

Edge banding would probably be easiest to finish the edge.  You can get it very thin with an iron on adhesive that's pretty cheap. 

[D_Harris]

Yes I meant the edge as in my second statement. Basically the kickplate area where the coin door will be is going to be a door itself. If I laminate the face, then when I open it up, I will have an edge there that should get t-molding or another piece of laminate. I am using particle board and I am unsure how fragile an "unprotected" edge is going to be. It's not like I will open and close it often, but I just want it to be a finished edge.

Edge banding would probably be easiest to finish the edge.  You can get it very thin with an iron on adhesive that's pretty cheap. 

But good luck in getting the edge banding to match the laminate. (If it matters).

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[DNA Dan]

I suppose I could use a piece of plywood and just laminate the face. This way the edge won't be so suceptible to being dammaged.

Anyone know of a black that matches wilsonart Black 60 Matte?

I tried the Rustoleum satin and that was just too deep of a black. I think it needs to be flatter. I am surprised at how poor the black is on the wilsonart.

[SammyWI]

I suppose I could use a piece of plywood and just laminate the face. This way the edge won't be so suceptible to being dammaged.

Anyone know of a black that matches wilsonart Black 60 Matte?

I tried the Rustoleum satin and that was just too deep of a black. I think it needs to be flatter. I am surprised at how poor the black is on the wilsonart.

You can take a scrap of the laminate to most any home improvement, hardware or paint store and they can color match it for you.  OTOH, if you are leaving the inside of the door natural (no laminate or paint) then you could edge band with a light wood color to come close to matching the inside and it would be protected and finished.  Do you plan on laminating both sides of the door?

[DNA Dan]

Well the whole cab will be 5/8 particle board surfaced on both sides with laminate. The issue comes up in any spot where you want to use that sandwiched material to make a door. You have an unfinished edge. So far the options are:

1) Use laminate or some banding to finish the edge. - In my experience this usually comes off or makes a super sharp corner.

2) Use t-molding - This would look terrible with the door closed because you'd be looking at the side of the molding.

3) Use a different material. - So I thought if I used plywood and just painted it black, you probably would not notice the edge. I could then use a laminate piece just on the front to match the rest of the cab. or both sides, doesn't matter, but it still leaves that edge there to deal with.

I didn't think about color match. Thanks for the tip!

[SammyWI]

If you do laminate the edge, you could bevel or even round off the sharp edge with a router bit set to the right depth.  Test on scrap first!  Of course then you'll have to account for the thickness of the laminate n the edge.  Personally, I'd just use the plywood for the door and paint the edge as well as you can.  You'll be the only one noticing that edge. 

[D_Harris]

Well the whole cab will be 5/8 particle board surfaced on both sides with laminate. The issue comes up in any spot where you want to use that sandwiched material to make a door. You have an unfinished edge. So far the options are:

1) Use laminate or some banding to finish the edge. - In my experience this usually comes off or makes a super sharp corner.

2) Use t-molding - This would look terrible with the door closed because you'd be looking at the side of the molding.

3) Use a different material. - So I thought if I used plywood and just painted it black, you probably would not notice the edge. I could then use a laminate piece just on the front to match the rest of the cab. or both sides, doesn't matter, but it still leaves that edge there to deal with.

I didn't think about color match. Thanks for the tip!

Color match black?  (Wilsonart #60 has a matte-like texture).

It seems to me it would just more money and work in the long run than if you just used plywood.

If you do laminate the edge, you could bevel or even round off the sharp edge with a router bit set to the right depth.  Test on scrap first!  Of course then you'll have to account for the thickness of the laminate n the edge.  Personally, I'd just use the plywood for the door and paint the edge as well as you can.  You'll be the only one noticing that edge. 

You can't rounder-over an edge that has laminate on it.

I can't understand the concern with damage while you just happen to have the door open. But again, if you are concerned with the edge, use Bondo or Wood filler to make it nice and smooth and them paint it whatever color you want. (This would also be more "repairable" than the other options).

(Again, I'd make my entire cabinet out of plywood). 

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[SammyWI]

 

Color matching matches the color, not texture.  That's why it's called color matching.  

Laminate can be slightly rounded or chamfered depending on thickness, just enough to remove a sharp edge.  (And that's what DNA Dan is concerned about - the sharp edge.)  The depth needs to be less than the thickness of the laminate.  That's why I said to set the depth carefully and test on scrap.    Typically the Wilsonart laminate from home improvement centers tends to be made for countertops and is thick enough to round off the edge.  DNA Dan has mentioned going through Home Depot for his laminate in this thread.  The laminate you (D Harris) have linked to is vertical grade and thinner but that applies to you and may not apply to others.  

Oh and look    I can overuse   smileys   too    

[D_Harris]

Color matching matches the color, not texture.  That's why it's called color matching. 

Really? The point is that you don't need to color match black...

And the matte texture of a laminate can throw off any color matching anyway.

Laminate can be slightly rounded or chamfered depending on thickness, just enough to remove a sharp edge.  (And that's what DNA Dan is concerned about - the sharp edge.)

He did not indicate that he was concerned about a "sharp edge". (In fact sharp edges look better than rounded edges).

The depth needs to be less than the thickness of the laminate.  That's why I said to set the depth carefully and test on scrap.    Typically the Wilsonart laminate from home improvement centers tends to be made for countertops and is thick enough to round off the edge.  DNA Dan has mentioned going through Home Depot for his laminate in this thread.  The laminate you (D Harris) have linked to is vertical grade and thinner but that applies to you and may not apply to others. 

You can get vertical or horizontal grade from a Home Depot that stocks laminate. Dan wasn't specific about the kind he wants to use. But it is not a good idea to use horizontal laminate as edge banding. Horizontal laminate also complicates slot routing where he will need to place T-Molding of which he would need an unconventional width.

(And when you rout down laminate you tend to change the texture of it).

Oh and look    I can overuse  smileys  too     

Good for you.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[DNA Dan]

Darren,

Why is it every time I see you post it's always confrontational? It's like you are just trolling for an argument. If you don't have anything constructive to add, please don't post just for the sake of trying to make it sound like others don't know what they are talking about. I asked for feedback on some very specific things given my current materials and design. I didn't ask what materials you would use for a cab build.

[D_Harris]

Darren,

Why is it every time I see you post it's always confrontational? It's like you are just trolling for an argument. If you don't have anything constructive to add, please don't post just for the sake of trying to make it sound like others don't know what they are talking about. I asked for feedback on some very specific things given my current materials and design. I didn't ask what materials you would use for a cab build.

And I gave you feedback. You can take it or you don't have to. You can believe incorrect or bad information if you want. I don't back down just because someone disagrees with me. (But I really couldn't care any less about this).

If you don't think I offered anything constructive, then I'm out.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[Hoopz]

Darren,

Why is it every time I see you post it's always confrontational? It's like you are just trolling for an argument. If you don't have anything constructive to add, please don't post just for the sake of trying to make it sound like others don't know what they are talking about. I asked for feedback on some very specific things given my current materials and design. I didn't ask what materials you would use for a cab build.

And I gave you feedback. You can take it or you don't have to. You can believe incorrect or bad information if you want. I don't back down just because someone disagrees with me. (But I really couldn't care any less about this).

If you don't think I offered anything constructive, then I'm out.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

Hilarious.  You have consistently stated that people aren't answering your questions and talking about details that are unimportant in your threads but when you do it to someone else, it's "feedback". 

Whatever.  You argue like a scorned woman.  You want it your way all the time and can't see it from any one else's perspective.  You may find this hard to believe but some here are at least as smart as you and some even smarter.

[SammyWI]

Well if Mr Harris is out, then no need to reply to him and drag this thread further off track.

Back to the topic.  

DNA Dan: I'm assuming from what you said about laminating both sides of 5/8" particle board that your laminate will be approx 1/16" thick and you'll end up with a 3/4" finished thickness.  Then you can just use standard 3/4" T molding for most edges with no special trimming.

If you have a sharp laminate edge where you won't have T molding, you can route that edge slightly with a round or chamfer bit - no more than the thickness of the laminate - obviously.  They also sell a laminate edger for this.  http://www.tools4flooring.com/mica-knife-plastic-laminate-edger.html  Or you can just hand file that edge.  I've usually seen it done with the router, probably because there's no special tool to buy (most folks already have a chamfer or rounded bit) and it leaves a nice clean finish.

[D_Harris]

Darren,

Why is it every time I see you post it's always confrontational? It's like you are just trolling for an argument. If you don't have anything constructive to add, please don't post just for the sake of trying to make it sound like others don't know what they are talking about. I asked for feedback on some very specific things given my current materials and design. I didn't ask what materials you would use for a cab build.

And I gave you feedback. You can take it or you don't have to. You can believe incorrect or bad information if you want. I don't back down just because someone disagrees with me. (But I really couldn't care any less about this).

If you don't think I offered anything constructive, then I'm out.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

Hilarious.  You have consistently stated that people aren't answering your questions and talking about details that are unimportant in your threads but when you do it to someone else, it's "feedback". 

That's a lie, but you are known for making up scenarios and false statements.  And true trolling nature you just in here to stir things things up.

Everything I said was on topic a related. If there was a bad suggestion then I pointed it out with an alternative. So those "details" are important.

Now go harass someone else.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[SammyWI]

If you don't think I offered anything constructive, then I'm out.

So close and yet so far away.