Digital Pinball Disasters

[Xiaou2]

 Compare the Pictures below, side by side, for yourself,  and you tell me if Digital Pinball is
up to Par...

---

Well, since Dazz is pushing the digital pins, and states that the new tables are identical to the originals... lets do some comparisons, and start Skoolin their QC dept.

Dazz, when challenged, presented SFII table.   Lets look at a real picture -vs- his re-draw, and see what happens when someone who has No clue, gets behind the wheel.

1) INSERTS:

 Inserts look Awful.   Flat.  Lifeless.  Cartoony.  Why?  Because theres no depth, no shadows, and no color interplay... all of which happens on a REAL insert.

 Look at how there is a light shadow on the upper left corner of the real insert.
 Look at the highlight on the upper right side.
 Look at the shadows under the letters spelling "campion"
 Look at the CORRECT line thickness of the insert+playfield outter circle.
 Look at the feint diving line between insert and playfield.  This is a reality.

 Look at how much detail is missing in the phony inserts.
 Look at how much it looks like a flat cartoon... and not beautiful and crystalline.
 Look at all the color and shading missing.

2) Artistic Integrety

 Look at the missing stippling on the dark blue of Bisons face.   Instead of dots that make an
INTENDED rough shading look... they have decided to alter it to make it smooth instead.

 Look at the Missing stipple (dots) on the hat front.
 Look at the change of the hats skull and wings

 Note changed in line widths and altered and missing details, such as on the ears.
 Note the missing teeth details
 Note that the shape of the hats middle black line isnt correctly "circular" as drawn on orig.
 Note the missing black facial lines on the bottom, and the black thickness change on the lower
teeth.

3) COLORS

 Look at the change of colors, from navy blue to POWDER BLUE. And Royal Red to Brick Red.

 Note the difference in shades of the clouds.  The change from light color to dark colors is a small jump in the original... and a huge leap on the modified version.  They not only changed the colors... but used too great a leap in shade... making the colors too contrasted... and completely different than the original intended look.

 You can also see this is the light and dark red on the hat.  The color difference is too great on the mod.

 Also, the white is way too bright on the mod... even for a brand new playfield.

 Note the missing red under the eyes.  (could possibly be a leak of the mask.. have to research it against other fields.  This is standard practice with All pins, as poor mask alignment can reveal lost details/changes)

 
 Ohh, but this is only the tip of a mighty iceburg of bungles.

 Its a real tragedy that anyone would allow "classic" butchery... let alone make something this awful
and call it Good/Better.


 A REAL Artist would EASILY understand what they were doing, and instead of cleaning up intended details.. would not have erased and changed them.   Only an untrained fool would do something like this.

 
 More to come...

[Xiaou2]

Heres another one for you.

 Here we see the classic use of Stippling (dot shading), on the Logo.

 Yet what happened here?  Ohh... well the guy who copied the art decided not to use Stippling, and instead changed the art to use a non textured, flat, boring, color grad.   

 Completely inaccurate.   Complete Crap.

[HanoiBoi]

Honey..tells the kids to stop playing the awesome, fantastically fun Digital Pinball Table.  I hadn't realized until now that the artwork wasn't exact.  I know, I know...all our guests pointed it out too, but I must have been blind.  Let the kids know that this will be their last game.  Now, I've got to find my axe and the closest landfill...

[Xiaou2]

This has nothing to do with telling people to stop playing real pins -vs- digital pins.

 It has to do with the poor quality standards of the Leaders, and the people behind the submissions.

 Its not just that the art is a Little different.  There are complete chosen alterations.  You simply do Not alter a classic piece of history, just because YOU think it will be better that way.  You simply dont have the right to do that to someone elses creations... nor to alter history.

 The people doing the work of scanning and editing, need a level of artistic understanding.
They need to understand things like "Stippling" and "Cross Hatching" so that when they see this on a piece of artwork... they dont edit it out thinking it was a printing mistake or an artist error.

 Obviously, nothing that has been done to date, has any form of quality control or standards.
And so what we get, are 20 versions of the same tables, that are all lacking in some way or another... that do not come close to portraying the actual machine visually.

 Do you think this is right?  Do you think this should continue this way?!   Maybe you think Mame should settle for just getting "close-enough", rather than 100% accurate emulation?

 Maybe you think Mame devs should alter the way an emulated game looks and plays, because THEY decided they liked it better?

 Obviously, digital pinball is a complete chaotic mess, with no hope, until things start changing.

[pinballwizard79]

Xiaou2

If we compare your MAME arcade hardware/controls or even the software/roms to the original arcades by the manufacturers I am sure the differences would be far greater than showing digital detail @ a 700% zoom on a high res PC monitor that a person cannot possibly discern on a 37"-46" TV thats several feet from their head.

Personally I think the new digital artwork is clean, bright & nice, hell I wish real pinball machines could look that damn good! I want real pins + a nice fatty LCD pin, thats where its at man. There is no perfect replacement for originals (not even reissues) but VP & MAME sure are damn awesome & a lot fun.

Just chill out.

[RayB]

As far as color difference, has it occurred to you Xiau that maybe the gamma / contrast on your monitor is too high? Monitors are fickle things and no two look alike. They might have looked exact on the artist's monitor but not yours.

[Xiaou2]

Ray, Im well versed in knowing how to calibrate a monitor.

 But hey, its yet another thing to teach people about.

 Mine is a viewsonic 21" crt, in excellent condition.  Far superior than most peoples LCDs
that they are using for trying to do their crapptastic artwork cleanups (err..  butchery).


 As for PBWs comments... they are so lacking in understanding that theres no reason to bother.
Hes pretty much part of the reason we are in this Mess, and have such Crap as a result.

[pinballwizard79]

As for PBWs comments...
Hes pretty much part of the reason we are in this Mess, and have such Crap as a result.

[pinballwizard79]

 

[studmuff]

Looks better than a lot of "touchups" I have seen people do to machines.  There are differences in color, inserts, etc but your comparing apples to oranges.  It's just not the same fruit.  If you even start comparing the gameplay then I'll know you really have nothing better to do but complain about everything. 

 Compare the Pictures below, side by side, for yourself,  and you tell me if Digital Pinball is
up to Par...

---

Well, since Dazz is pushing the digital pins, and states that the new tables are identical to the originals... lets do some comparisons, and start Skoolin their QC dept.

Dazz, when challenged, presented SFII table.   Lets look at a real picture -vs- his re-draw, and see what happens when someone who has No clue, gets behind the wheel.

1) INSERTS:

 Inserts look Awful.   Flat.  Lifeless.  Cartoony.  Why?  Because theres no depth, no shadows, and no color interplay... all of which happens on a REAL insert.

 Look at how there is a light shadow on the upper left corner of the real insert.
 Look at the highlight on the upper right side.
 Look at the shadows under the letters spelling "campion"
 Look at the CORRECT line thickness of the insert+playfield outter circle.
 Look at the feint diving line between insert and playfield.  This is a reality.

 Look at how much detail is missing in the phony inserts.
 Look at how much it looks like a flat cartoon... and not beautiful and crystalline.
 Look at all the color and shading missing.

2) Artistic Integrety

 Look at the missing stippling on the dark blue of Bisons face.   Instead of dots that make an
INTENDED rough shading look... they have decided to alter it to make it smooth instead.

 Look at the Missing stipple (dots) on the hat front.
 Look at the change of the hats skull and wings

 Note changed in line widths and altered and missing details, such as on the ears.
 Note the missing teeth details
 Note that the shape of the hats middle black line isnt correctly "circular" as drawn on orig.
 Note the missing black facial lines on the bottom, and the black thickness change on the lower
teeth.

3) COLORS

 Look at the change of colors, from navy blue to POWDER BLUE. And Royal Red to Brick Red.

 Note the difference in shades of the clouds.  The change from light color to dark colors is a small jump in the original... and a huge leap on the modified version.  They not only changed the colors... but used too great a leap in shade... making the colors too contrasted... and completely different than the original intended look.

 You can also see this is the light and dark red on the hat.  The color difference is too great on the mod.

 Also, the white is way too bright on the mod... even for a brand new playfield.

 Note the missing red under the eyes.  (could possibly be a leak of the mask.. have to research it against other fields.  This is standard practice with All pins, as poor mask alignment can reveal lost details/changes)

 
 Ohh, but this is only the tip of a mighty iceburg of bungles.

 Its a real tragedy that anyone would allow "classic" butchery... let alone make something this awful
and call it Good/Better.


 A REAL Artist would EASILY understand what they were doing, and instead of cleaning up intended details.. would not have erased and changed them.   Only an untrained fool would do something like this.

 
 More to come...

[Dazz]

...snip

Xiaou2 you are quite possibly one of the biggest elitist --bags of cream-filled twinkies-- I've ever seen on any forum.  I don't know why people even listen to you around here.

I still don't believe that you've ever taken the time to play a digital table in FS mode.  Playing an Ultrapin DOES NOT constitute as playing a digital pin!  I have Ultrapin tables and they look and play like ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- compared to newer tables we have now.  You may know a *little* about real pins, but you are talking out of your ass when it comes to digital.  Your comments regarding digital pins should continue to fall upon deaf ears (blind eyes?).

[Xiaou2]

Dazz, As for pin and video experience, I not only own 3 pins, and 3 vids...  Ive Managed a busy arcade with over 42 games at any moment in rotation.   Usually with at least 2 to 3 pins at one location.

 Ive also fixed/restored/modded  other peoples pins/arcade machines for side cash.

 Being an Arcade manager in a Namco owned mall store, means tearing things down to pieces to get them to work properly.   I was there about 45-50 hrs a week, for 3 yrs before the store faded out.

 I attend out of state shows and auctions at least once a year.   Allentown almost always... other shows and auctions at random.  Ive seen and played both the Ultra Pin, as well as custom built digital pins at these shows and auctions.  I also have experience with them on my own PC.

 I belong to a pinball club, which host regular comps and get togethers, with basements filled with top of the line pins, in pristine upkept condition.

 Ive restored an Ice Cold Beer game, rebuilding the entire slide bar assembly (using pretty brass tube), new rubber pulley lines mod,  buffed metal parts to mirror finish, and touched about 1/5th of the artwork that had flaked off the machines front glass - to the point where people couldnt tell that it was ever touched.   Yes, my color matching skills are pretty damn solid.  Sold the machine at a show for about $750.  (they usually go for $300-$400 top)

 I have good artistic ability, color matching skill, pencil and paint skill, woodworking ability, metal work, PC repair and building, PC apps such as photoshop, and mechanical design ability.

 Ive been into emulation and video pinball, almost since their very inception.

 Ive contributed to mame, as well as many other projects.

 Im no master of any one thing.. but I have a deep understanding and broad range of skills.
Which includes art, photoshop, color, shading, touchups, and much more. 

 So, yeah, I have a lot more understanding of what a Mess the current digital pins are today.

 In fact, long ago when virtual pinball started.. I had every updated table and files.  But it didnt take long before I gave up playing them.  They kept changing the system, so tables frequently would error out and cease to work.  There were a billion versions of tables to try to maintain.. and all had various artistic issues, as well as glitches, and other issues like no analog, and poor perspective, ohh and missing functions... so certain games couldnt even be built period.

 Fast forward to recently, when tables are getting a lot more attention... and I re-downloaded a monster pack of files / tables.  As well have been browsing the VP forums.

 But, sadly, even with all the engine enhancements that make producing a good pin possible now...
you have people who have no artistic clue how to put together things properly... and so every table looks like Butt.   And again, because of this... multiple versions of the same tables... all highly flawed as usual.

 
 Whats amazing, is that you claim Im blind... when you cant even tell the difference between a real photographed insert.. and a pile of crap simulation of one, made by some idiot who thinks a few light color alterations equates to good looking inserts.   This is the most BASIC of things that can make a pin look good... and they cant even get that right!

 What is being produced is Crap.  But why is that?  Im pretty sure its because of BLIND people like yourself, who dont understand art, light, shadow, 3d, photoshop, vector art, touch ups, etc.

 You promote Supreme Ignorance, and Revel in it.

 And Honestly, I could Out-build you on a digital pin any day of the week.
I wont however, because:

 A) There Analog Patch they are Trying to install is not even close to correct.
(does not appear to track acceleration well.  Only relative position.  Its also doubtful they allow for full use of an analog axis.  Instead, the one guy is hacking a joypad, using only half an axis, which equates to super low resolution.  Ohh, and even worse res, cause its direct drive and not geared)

 B) The tables look like Butt.

 C) Id rather spend the money on another Real pin.  And merely build a pin-controller ""IF""
they ever get their crap together.

 Take the time to Actually review the pictures you posted so eagerly for me / us all too see...
and then take the time to go over my comments and see match them to the tables.   If you cant follow it.. then ask a few lifetime artists (Real artists who can draw and shade with a pencil and ink... not photoshop wannabees)  whats up.  They will tell you the same exact things, when comparing a real pin to the crappy output that exists today.

 Making a good digital pin is possible, but not with people who dont have a damn clue.
Thats like trying to reproduce an F1 race car, with a bunch of Dance Instructors, who havnt the foggiest clue about mechanics... let alone could run a machine shop to fabricate things.

 I may be an Elitist / Perfectionist... AND I may be a *badwords*, BUT, I am right.
Anyone with a clue, will let you know it.  But obviously, you dont know anyone with a clue, and
wont listen if you did.

[amendonz]

you do it then

[Xiaou2]

Looks better than a lot of "touchups" I have seen people do to machines.

 
 You are again talking people who are Clueless.

 As for me, I can color match to the point where people dont know there is a touchup,
and I know most of the collectors that have pins here locally have a good artists who knows
what they are doing... to touch up their "thousands of dollars" machines.

 You also seem to ignore that many people send their playfields out for complete restoration
for Huge money.  Wait years in line for that to happen... and or preorder a soon to be newly reproduced playfield.

 Sure, there are some who dont care.  Who beat their machines into the ground.  Never clean or maintain them unless its extreme.  But there are plenty more who actually Do care.  Spend big money and time restoring them to new or better than new condition.  But, people are not buying reproductions based on what the Repo guy wants to do.  They are asking for accurate reproductions, and complain when things are not accurate, due to mistakes/issues.

There are differences in color, inserts, etc but your comparing apples to oranges.  It's just not the same fruit.

 This is a weak way of saying that its impossible to make a virtural pin look like a real pin.  And thats ignoring the changes made on-purpose, rather than accident.
Its a lazy way out, and a way out that screams of someone who just doesnt know what they are talking about.

 Photographing Inserts is about the Easiest thing one can do to reproduce a games proper look.
Its been done before, such as on the Microsoft Haunted House pin.

 You have the sort of attitude George Lucus has about his use of Crappy CGI.  Nearly any other big name movie can make CGI thats nearly indistinguishable from a real object.  Yet Lucus's team?  Not even close.   Its like Lucus's team is a bunch of swimmers asked to play pro basketball.  They can make a few hoops... but look like idiots out there in the game.


 You wouldnt let your 5 yr old work on the house electricity?
 You wouldnt let a nurse perform a surgery instead of the Doctor would you?


 Clueless = Crap Results.   Plain and Simple.

[Xiaou2]

Here are some Articles about Monitor Calibration:

http://www.wikihow.com/Calibrate-Your-Monitor

http://www.ehow.com/how_2111986_use-adobe-gamma.html


Quick Gamma - A program to help calibrate things. 
(however, try Adobes gama program first.  It installs with Photoshop & ran from windows control panel)

http://www.quickgamma.de/indexen.html


 Additional types of calibrations:

http://www.photofriday.com/calibrate.php

http://adoniram.deviantart.com/art/CRT-Monitor-Calibration-Chart-12834934


There are also specific calibration screens and programs specific to LCDs.

 Even with all of this, the calibration may not be 100% due to your monitors capabilities, age, and
accuracy of the calibration..etc.   Either way, it will be a lot closer to being correct, than what it currently may be.

 If your monitor is off considerably, it will cause a lot of problems with how other people see the image.  In colors, brightness, and much much more.

 And if Anyone is doing any artwork, they always should be calibrated.
Some places of business will actually buy expensive Hardware calibration devices to insure perfect color and gamma accuracy.


 More later...

[Dazz]

 

Perhaps if people were buying digital tables then we would need picture perfect re-creations.  However, the people that are re-drawing playfields don't make a single dime from doing it.  They spend their own time, many many hours, re-tracing playfields from extremely low-rez images. Odds are the image that the re-trace is being done from wasn't a good source to begin with, but the artist did the best they could based on the source images they had access to at the time.  These images are 100% better than what has been used on digital re-creations in the past and I'm glad to have people that are willing to re-create these, for free, for our enjoyment.  The VP developers, again non-paid, open source programmers are doing the best they can as well.  While the software isn't perfect; we do have a good group of people that is willing to spend their own time to further development.  I, for one, am very glad that we have such people out there still that are willing to do this for little to nothing in return.  Sure if I was paying for the software/tables then I would expect MUCH MUCH more out of it, but I'm not paying for anything and right now I'm happy with the direction that things are moving.

Look Xiaou2 It's obvious that you don't like digital pinball machines nor the direction that the future is taking it.  There is no need to go toe to toe with you on this.  I'm not trying to get you to change your mind about digital pins.  I'm just stating that digital pins are here and they probably will be around much longer than you hope they will be.  Digital pins are valid suggestions for anyone looking to scratch that itch for a pinball. 

I love real machines and never would bash or scrutinize a real machine like you do when it comes to digital.  I just don't have room, nor the money, to have more than 1 machine.  No single pin has ever grabbed my attention to be worth owning for any serious amount of time.  If I had transportation and money for buying/trading pins then I would, but I don't.  I had to settle on a digital machine for my "poor-mans arcade".  While the digital table isn't perfect, it does a really good job to scratch the pinball itch. 

With that being said; even having a digital pin does not keep me from playing a real table whenever I come across one, no matter what pin it is.  I just dropped $20 between 2 real machines on Friday night that I had never played before.  I've played these two tables hundreds of times on my digital pin, but it was really nice being able to play the real machines when I come across them.  It is very rare to see machines out in the wild around here, except during the pinball festival, so it's always a privilege to get to play when I come across one.  Because I have played these tables digitally; I already knew the rule sets of both tables and I knew how to make the necessary shots.  Oddly enough the digital re-creations played fairly close to the real machines.  I picked up enough skill from playing the digital re-creations to take the high-score on both machines.

Digital tables are picking up steam weather you like it or not.  We are seeing a large influx of people building new cabinets and many people in the planning stages being announced on a daily basis.  With software companies like Zenpinball looking into creating multiple screen tables digital pinball tables will be around for the foreseeable future.  I can easily see Zenpinball converting some of their original tables to multi-screen PC tables and being able to pull a profit.  It's really sad that we can't say the same for mechanical builders such as Stern or the new upstart Jersey Jack.  While I would love to see both companies flourish and bring back the feel of pinball like we got in the 80's and 90's; it's not going to happen.  These companies are going to have to change with the times if they want to succeed.  The new pins that are being put out now days don't really have that wow factor that pins of the past did to grab attention.  Perhaps Stern should start thinking about a more digital supplement to their dwindling mechanical business.  I think they could be very successful if they do choose to move towards a digital solution.  Take some of their licenses, and artists and pair them up with a software house to build a nice digital engine and release more mass affordable PC based machines.

Sure they could charge $4,000 initially for a digital table and even more and more to have better features, faster PC, better screens, etc. added.  Toss in a license for the table and for software/engine updates.  Software tables would be much cheaper to produce, easier to maintain and right now they do have that wow factor that is missing from today's tables.  For something to be successful in today's market you have to have something that stands out to the younger crowds. 

I bet if you took a nice looking digital pin, with flashing lights, solenoids, and nice spec'd PC and set it side by side with the top grossing mechanical pinball of all time in a location like Dave & Busters with the top grossing, mint conditioned, mechanical pinball of all time... the digital would have more playtime than the mechanical.

I also bet that within the next 5 years we will start seeing more and more digital pins being released commercially.  I doubt that we'll see re-creations of old machines due to licensing issues, but we'll see software companies such as Zenpinball join the realm.  Just check out some of the tables that Zenpinball.com has to offer, their tables and physics engine would lend it's self to a multi screen digital pin with little effort.  I'd gladly pay good money to have their tables playable on a multi-screen, pinball table form.

I think that the movement that we are seeing with digital pins now is only the beginning.

[drventure]

+1 on Dazz's comments. Not anything that's even worth arguing about in the slightest. The digital pins are awesome. Some of the builds I've seen around here are fantastic, and the tables.... Well, like Dash said, it's people doing these scans on their own time, for FREE. and usually with one purpose in mind, to recreated a classic table for playability, NOT to strictly preserve some notion of artistic integrity (which, BTW, can vary +dramatically+ from one person to the next).

I say, everyone in the vpin arena is doing a +great+ job, and I thank you all for it!

[pinballwizard79]

I like all the stuff Xiaou2 hates... such as VisualPinball, LCD monitors, well made frankenpanels, happiness & etc.

Just post random videos to derail his threads & rants until he stops

[ChadTower]

I don't know why people even listen to you around here.

Hey now you know what happens when people assume...

[studmuff]

I think there is only one reasonable thing you can do.  You need to pick a machine and recreate it in VP or FP.  Since you already know everything there is to know about pinball, pinball restoration and visual pinball.  I could get you in touch with some of the VP table authors but you already have the tools, so get going and make one.  Some of the authors can do a table in about 2-3 weeks time.  With your incredible knowledge base, you should be able to get it done in half that time.  Then again you always strive for perfection so 2-3 weeks should be fine.  Please let us know which table you are doing.  I can't wait to see the most perfect representation of a digital table by you.  Finally, someone will do it.  Please pick one of the three pins you own to make it easier on yourself.  I myself own 14 machines so if you are looking for a specific title I can take pictures for you.  This is going to be awesome.  Xiaou2 = Michaelangelo

Dazz, As for pin and video experience, I not only own 3 pins, and 3 vids...  Ive Managed a busy arcade with over 42 games at any moment in rotation.   Usually with at least 2 to 3 pins at one location.

 Ive also fixed/restored/modded  other peoples pins/arcade machines for side cash.

 Being an Arcade manager in a Namco owned mall store, means tearing things down to pieces to get them to work properly.   I was there about 45-50 hrs a week, for 3 yrs before the store faded out.

 I attend out of state shows and auctions at least once a year.   Allentown almost always... other shows and auctions at random.  Ive seen and played both the Ultra Pin, as well as custom built digital pins at these shows and auctions.  I also have experience with them on my own PC.

 I belong to a pinball club, which host regular comps and get togethers, with basements filled with top of the line pins, in pristine upkept condition.

 Ive restored an Ice Cold Beer game, rebuilding the entire slide bar assembly (using pretty brass tube), new rubber pulley lines mod,  buffed metal parts to mirror finish, and touched about 1/5th of the artwork that had flaked off the machines front glass - to the point where people couldnt tell that it was ever touched.   Yes, my color matching skills are pretty damn solid.  Sold the machine at a show for about $750.  (they usually go for $300-$400 top)

 I have good artistic ability, color matching skill, pencil and paint skill, woodworking ability, metal work, PC repair and building, PC apps such as photoshop, and mechanical design ability.

 Ive been into emulation and video pinball, almost since their very inception.

 Ive contributed to mame, as well as many other projects.

 Im no master of any one thing.. but I have a deep understanding and broad range of skills.
Which includes art, photoshop, color, shading, touchups, and much more. 

 So, yeah, I have a lot more understanding of what a Mess the current digital pins are today.

 In fact, long ago when virtual pinball started.. I had every updated table and files.  But it didnt take long before I gave up playing them.  They kept changing the system, so tables frequently would error out and cease to work.  There were a billion versions of tables to try to maintain.. and all had various artistic issues, as well as glitches, and other issues like no analog, and poor perspective, ohh and missing functions... so certain games couldnt even be built period.

 Fast forward to recently, when tables are getting a lot more attention... and I re-downloaded a monster pack of files / tables.  As well have been browsing the VP forums.

 But, sadly, even with all the engine enhancements that make producing a good pin possible now...
you have people who have no artistic clue how to put together things properly... and so every table looks like Butt.   And again, because of this... multiple versions of the same tables... all highly flawed as usual.

 
 Whats amazing, is that you claim Im blind... when you cant even tell the difference between a real photographed insert.. and a pile of crap simulation of one, made by some idiot who thinks a few light color alterations equates to good looking inserts.   This is the most BASIC of things that can make a pin look good... and they cant even get that right!

 What is being produced is Crap.  But why is that?  Im pretty sure its because of BLIND people like yourself, who dont understand art, light, shadow, 3d, photoshop, vector art, touch ups, etc.

 You promote Supreme Ignorance, and Revel in it.

 And Honestly, I could Out-build you on a digital pin any day of the week.
I wont however, because:

 A) There Analog Patch they are Trying to install is not even close to correct.
(does not appear to track acceleration well.  Only relative position.  Its also doubtful they allow for full use of an analog axis.  Instead, the one guy is hacking a joypad, using only half an axis, which equates to super low resolution.  Ohh, and even worse res, cause its direct drive and not geared)

 B) The tables look like Butt.

 C) Id rather spend the money on another Real pin.  And merely build a pin-controller ""IF""
they ever get their crap together.

 Take the time to Actually review the pictures you posted so eagerly for me / us all too see...
and then take the time to go over my comments and see match them to the tables.   If you cant follow it.. then ask a few lifetime artists (Real artists who can draw and shade with a pencil and ink... not photoshop wannabees)  whats up.  They will tell you the same exact things, when comparing a real pin to the crappy output that exists today.

 Making a good digital pin is possible, but not with people who dont have a damn clue.
Thats like trying to reproduce an F1 race car, with a bunch of Dance Instructors, who havnt the foggiest clue about mechanics... let alone could run a machine shop to fabricate things.

 I may be an Elitist / Perfectionist... AND I may be a *badwords*, BUT, I am right.
Anyone with a clue, will let you know it.  But obviously, you dont know anyone with a clue, and
wont listen if you did.

[epthegeek]

People do the best they can with what's available.  Full high res scans of bare playfields don't generally exist.  These "substandard" redraws are still far better than the available source materials.  

[saint]

Keep the disagreements civil please folks. Thanks!

--- saint

[Xiaou2]

Perhaps if people were buying digital tables then we would need picture perfect re-creations.

 There is nobody buying Mame.  Yet mame strives for and attains (in many cases) Accurate results.

However, the people that are re-drawing playfields don't make a single dime from doing it.  They spend their own time, many many hours, re-tracing playfields from extremely low-rez images.

 Well there, thats a Problem isnt it?   Instead of defending garbage results, you would think that people would get their acts together and start getting pinball owners, and or parts sellers, to give access to, or direct scans to, the project.

 In Mame's case, people donate towards artwork purchases.  Of course, artwork is much cheaper than a +$300 playfield.  However, you can turn a good PF around pretty easily.

 And, most pinball people wouldnt mind letting people take high res photos of their machines.
 
 However, it Is a lot of work regardless.  Anyone can respect that.  But if you are going to blow all your time making half-butt results... then why bother?  Let alone defend them.

 As Ive said before...  How hard is it to photograph / scan a blank plastic insert?

 A lot of this inst the problem with poor availability.  Its a problem with Leadership, lack of communication, and poor knowledge of what needs to be achieved to make at least a Decent standard of results.

Odds are the image that the re-trace is being done from wasn't a good source to begin with, but the artist did the best they could based on the source images they had access to at the
time.

 And how does that excuse the Extremely Dim lighting used on machines?   And how does that excuse that in such horrible pitch black lighting... many parts are lit like they are in sunlight, even without any lighting on them?

 What you are seeing here is again, Failure to understand how things need to be assembled.
As well as No standards.  No information to help guide these people in their efforts.

the software isn't perfect; we do have a good group of people that is willing to spend their own time to further development.

 Well, I gave one of your GOOD people my analog plunger designs  (based on Years of in-depth knowledge and experience with Arcade Hardware)  ,and he shot it down because He thinks he can use a slider-pot.  Even though he will never attain lasting reliability with one, let alone find one to suit that need.  As he probably has no experience with such mechanical devices.

 We shall see how the stubborn prevail.


 Anyways, yes, there has been some improvement to the programming aspects of VP.  But it all goes out the window when one sees the fulgy tables.

Look Xiaou2 It's obvious that you don't like digital pinball machines nor the direction that the future is taking it.

 You know, its really funny how you try to claim I dont like Digital Pinball.  Plain stupid really.. especially because Ive Stated that Ive downloaded, played, and enjoyed them.  In fact, Ive even stated that I Prefer MS Pinball to the 'Trash' tables out there.

 You keep trying to make it some sort of war between digital and real machines.  Not me.  ONLY YOU.  YOU are the one with mental issues here.

 I merely said I dont like the crappy table work, as well as the lacking of good analog.
Get it Straight Punk.

Digital pins are valid suggestions for anyone looking to scratch that itch for a pinball.

 I know it breaks your heart to know this.. but Opinions are not Fact.

 I have the opinion that Digital Pins in their current iteration are not worthy.   You are fine with them.   However, my OPINION hurts your feelings... so you make a 15 page reply about how my OPINION is somehow wrong.  Opinions cant be wrong or right.   

(AND btw, my FACTUAL data, still IS correct, and cant be dis-proven)

 Get used to it Pal, If people ask advice... I will continue to steer people away from making, what I believe to be a poor decision, of making/buying a digital pin...   -vs-  a real pin.

I love real machines and never would bash or scrutinize a real machine like you do when it comes to digital.  I just don't have room, nor the money, to have more than 1 machine.  No single pin has ever grabbed my attention to be worth owning for any serious amount of time.  If I had transportation and money for buying/trading pins then I would, but I don't.  I had to settle on a digital machine for my "poor-mans arcade".  While the digital table isn't perfect, it does a really good job to scratch the pinball itch.

 Wow.  Its like you are the real life Two-Face.   You completely dished out all kinds of anti-real pin sentiment already.  You cant fool anyone.

 Digital Pins have their place... especially if they are done well and proper.  But as they stand now, the experience is very substandard.   Its like trying to watch Lucus's Starwars buchered versions of the originals... but its much worse.

No single pin has ever grabbed my attention to be worth owning for any serious amount of time.

 FYI:  I know a lot of people, myself included, that disagree with your opinion.

enough the digital re-creations played fairly close to the real machines.  I picked up enough skill from playing the digital re-creations to take the high-score on both machines.

 Wow. The schoolgirl cheerleader-ism is really strong with this guy!  lol
Score rarely matters to me.. but be aware, many machines have their scores reset.  If you think your a pinball Jedi.. go to complete at placed like PAPA.

Digital tables are picking up steam weather you like it or not

.

 Again with the War stuff.  So funny.  So sad.

It's really sad that we can't say the same for mechanical builders such as Stern or the new upstart Jersey Jack.  While I would love to see both companies flourish and bring back the feel of pinball like we got in the 80's and 90's; it's not going to happen.  These companies are going to have to change with the times if they want to succeed.  The new pins that are being put out now days don't really have that wow factor that pins of the past did to grab attention.  Perhaps Stern should start thinking about a more digital supplement to their dwindling mechanical business.  I think they could be very successful if they do choose to move towards a digital solution.  Take some of their licenses, and artists and pair them up with a software house to build a nice digital engine and release more mass affordable PC based machines.

 Well folks, that says it all right there.  This dude is all about Digital Pinball sales Period.  A total fanboy.   So far left, he cant even keep his arguments straight.  God its Hilarious!

 Lets put it like this...   If Mechanical Pinball never existed... the Popularity of Digital Pins would NEVER have sprung up.  They wouldnt have even been born.  So dont go thinking all the sudden that a bunch of no talent hacks who cant even throw together a decent replication of SOMEONE ELSES WORK,  is Worthy of any praise or Credit.

 Btw - Many who have played Digital Pinball, have often decided to get a REAL Machine, and never regretted it.  Meaning, the Digital experience is severely lacking.

 As for the Idiotic statements about getting with the times...  thats all the are.  Idiotic clueless statements.  Pinball is Timeless.   Just like Bowling and Pool are Timeless.   You dont see people raving about Virtual Pool and Virtual Bowling do you?  There are still plenty of leagues and players of REAL physical games.   Yes, video games are fun... but real physical challenge will always be a part of peoples lives.   Just like riding a go-cart, race car, cycle...etc... will always be a part of peoples lives.   Video games may be popular, but they do not replace all these types of experiences.

 Pinballs failures, are less to do with times... and more to do with things like "on-location-reliability".
As well as things like Poor Themes (Stern), Poor Quality (Stern), cutting corners (Stern), bad design choices (Williams Pinball 2000), poor marketing, and much more.

 Pinball as an industry Could be fixed, and start making big money... just like the Arcade industry COULD be revived.  However, there would have to be Less shortsighted and downright incorrect people like you yourself involved for something like that to happen.

Sure they could charge $4,000 initially for a digital table and even more and more to have better features, faster PC, better screens, etc. added.  Toss in a license for the table and for software/engine updates.  Software tables would be much cheaper to produce, easier to maintain and right now they do have that wow factor that is missing from today's tables.  For something to be successful in today's market you have to have something that stands out to the younger crowds.

 More ignorance.

 I watched a kid, about 11yrs old, climb out of a 1980s sega TURBO arcade machine (sitdown)  at a local gameroom show.   He was ecstatic!   He was grinning ear to ear, smiling and laughing. He said to his pal next to him, that he loves how fast the car accelerates.  How its so much more fun than the current games.  Then, he says to the kid, "Im gonna save up my  money and buy this game!"

 Warmed my heart instantly!  = )

 Why would any 11ish yr old kid play an Ancient game like Turbo... that has No supercharged 3d graphics, no hi-res monitor, no surround sound, no cabinet motors, no components made in his lifetime... and find it completely enjoyable?

 Its called Playability.


 Ive had crowds of kids and adults come to play my Ice Cold Beer, pretty much non-stop at a show, and were extremely happy and excited about it.   A pure mechanical game.

 Whats this?  I hear young ones actually play games of skill... like Pool, Mini Golf, Ski-Ball, Basketball and Bowling.  Remarkable!  What?  These games have not changed in hundreds of years?  Hows that?

I bet if you took a nice looking digital pin, with flashing lights, solenoids, and nice spec'd PC and set it side by side with the top grossing mechanical pinball of all time in a location like Dave & Busters with the top grossing, mint conditioned, mechanical pinball of all time... the digital would have more playtime than the mechanical.

 Try this:

 Medieval Madness, next to a digital version of it.  Then, have a person getting player reactions and opinions.  And even passerbys who merely looked at them both.

 Your rose colored fanboy glasses would be shattered in an instant.

  Pinball is interesting, because its a physical game, with physical things.  While a digital representation can be a substitute... its not a very good substitute.  Given the choice between eating steak, or a hamburg... both at the same price point 'on location' ...  most will choose steak.

 The same can be said for bowling -vs- a wii being set up in a bowling ally, at the same price point for playing.

 Nobody can deny pinballs reign.  Its lasted from the early 50s?  And even competed with video games in the 90s.  Iterations of it will continue to exist, because people love ball related skill games.

I also bet that within the next 5 years we will start seeing more and more digital pins being released commercially.  I doubt that we'll see re-creations of old machines due to licensing issues, but we'll see software companies such as Zenpinball join the realm.  Just check out some of the tables that Zenpinball.com has to offer, their tables and physics engine would lend it's self to a multi screen digital pin with little effort.  I'd gladly pay good money to have their tables playable on a multi-screen, pinball table form.

 Sorry, but I could care less.  Ive played VP.  I wasnt impressed enough to ever drop coin into such a machine.  Theres no feeling at all.   Personally, I dont think you know anything about how to play pinball.

I think that the movement that we are seeing with digital pins now is only the beginning.

 Yet, lets talk in 20 yrs, when a MM commands $20,000... and a digital pin cant get more than $500.

 Pinball as a physical thing will only get more popular with digital pins advertisement.  But Digital Pinball will never be a real substitute.  Only a weak diversion.

[RayB]

 
Anyone who cares enough about a pinball game to want it to be perfect will buy the real thing.

[Dazz]

Anyone who cares enough about a pinball game to want it to be perfect will buy the real thing.

[shilmover]

Dazz,

Ignore Xiaou2. 

Xiaou2...  do you really have nothing better to do than attack other people's work?  It appears that your skill are much better than anyone working on Digital Pinballs.  Please grace us with some recreations of your own...

[pinballwizard79]

Xiaou2 why are you superior for disliking our likes?

I found a video of you (little troll boy)

[Dazz]

Xiaou2 why are you superior for disliking our likes?

I found a video of you (little troll boy)

Lol, I'm wearing my Mooby's shirt and nametag right now!

[Xiaou2]

Anyone who cares enough about a pinball game to want it to be perfect will buy the real thing.

 1stly, thats not true.  Not everyone can afford a pinball, or all of the pins they want to own.

 2nd, Its not even CLOSE to perfect.  We are talking 1st grade talent level.

 and

 3rd, its funny how everyone's panties get all twisted over this... yet if someone actually took the advise, and started making GOOD tables, they would be all cheers.

 
 Unlike other Trolls here, I offer suggestions and advise for improvement.

 All you ignorant trolls offer is a crappy attitude,
 ...and crappy looking tables.

[CheffoJeffo]

I find two things very funny and/or disturbing about this thread:

1) I agree, at a general level, with Xiaou about digital pins. I love playing digital pin sims on a computer, but I am really bothered when I play on a full cabinet. I just don't enjoy it, even when the cabinets are beautful. It is my personal preference and has nothing to do with denigrating the work of others.

2) Xiaou is running around playing MasterXouche(tm), being completely disrespectful of the work and opinions of others after spending YEARS raving like a death-punch whenever anybody raised even the mildest criticism of someone's MAME cabinet, even when it is an obvious monstronsity beyond even CrapMAME. If anybody else was saying was Xiaou2 is saying about a totally repulsive MAME cab (that nobody else could possible defend), Xiaou2 would be railing off the walls and calling them things like "Crybaby turd tosser egotistical self righteous miserable coward stink hole" or "Worthless button pusher".

C'mon Steve, even the most colourblind can recognize that the pot and kettle are both black.

 

[Firebat138]

It's Marshall Flinkman...  Love him

Xiaou2 why are you superior for disliking our likes?

I found a video of you (little troll boy)

Lol, I'm wearing my Mooby's shirt and nametag right now!

[Loafmeister]

Virtual pinball has always been about interpretation, not emulation (as far as graphics, physics, etc.).  IMHO, if someone was recreating art to be put in a real pin, I'd get the complaint but what's the big deal for this interpretation?

The bottom line is, when it comes to virtual pins, we're talking about a totally different medium. If there's artistic license at play, who gives a crap?  if it was an official sanctioned conversion by the original manufacturer, then maybe, MAYBE I'd see a point here.

[RayB]

Honestly Xiau2, if you decide to create some tables, I'll gladly test them and offer feedback.
(And no, I don't mean that I will relish the opporunity to tear it apart. I'm being sincere here.)

[Rando]

I haven't been here that long,
But my one certainty so far is that Xiaou2 reallllllly hates the concept of digital pinball.

 

[HanoiBoi]

I haven't been here that long,
But my one certainty so far is that Xiaou2 reallllllly hates the concept of digital pinball.

 

No Rando, its the implementation that he dislikes.

Xiaou2, I understand your points , but I do think you could have gone about it differently.  Your thread seemed like a direct attack against the people working on and praising Digital Pinball, so you shouldn't be too surprised when people get defensive.

Having an opinion about something is great.  Sharing your reasoning behind your opinion is even better.  But to completely tell people to do as you do or think as you think isn't usually well accepted. 

Here's a bad analogy....some people don't like lobster. They might say its too rubbery, chewy, tastes fishy and has to be served with butter to be palatable.  They could share those reasons and others would understand, but you've got to realize that there are other people who absolutely love lobster.  For those who haven't tried it, you'd be doing them a great disservice by telling them not to eat it because they may be the ones who really love it.

[H4CK3R]

Facts I have learned...

Xiaou2 talks out his ass, and until I see a Digital table from him, he'll continue talking out his ass....

Digital Pinball is not perfect, and its not mame...  a Rom comes with the digital medium, thus making it alot easer to recreate.  And currently you can not create a "Perfect" table even with a digital scan of the playfeild, because of two reasons..

1) LCD dimensions vs Playfeild dimensions. 

2) VP in its current format can not recreate with 100% accuracy the angle in which it plays.

There are alot of dedicated people that are working to resolve this, and make it as close as they can get it.  It will improve with time, and effort.  I own 3 pins myself, 1 being a a digital pin.  Guess what gets played more?

I understand the enjoyment watching others play games and come away with a different experience.  Watching my nephew and niece play was priceless...  And they begged me to build them one for thier home.

Kids Don't lie, or have pre-judgments




Charles



Enough said...

[shilmover]

Facts I have learned...

Xiaou2 talks out his ass, and until I see a Digital table from him, he'll continue talking out his ass....

Digital Pinball is not perfect, and its not mame...  a Rom comes with the digital medium, thus making it alot easer to recreate.  And currently you can not create a "Perfect" table even with a digital scan of the playfeild, because of two reasons..

1) LCD dimensions vs Playfeild dimensions. 

2) VP in its current format can not recreate with 100% accuracy the angle in which it plays.

There are alot of dedicated people that are working to resolve this, and make it as close as they can get it.  It will improve with time, and effort.  I own 3 pins myself, 1 being a a digital pin.  Guess what gets played more?

I understand the enjoyment watching others play games and come away with a different experience.  Watching my nephew and niece play was priceless...  And they begged me to build them one for thier home.

Kids Don't lie, or have pre-judgments




Charles



Enough said...

Well said, Charles.

BTW, see you in 2 weeks... 

[llars]

I don't like the Mame / VP comparison because with MAME you are dumping the ROM and emulating the hardware. With VP you are recreating artwork. That's a lot more complicated than emulating the hardware especially if you don't have good source material. If MAME rendered the full cabinet along with the CP and artwork accurately that would be a different story but that will never happen because that is a lot of work.

[ChadTower]

I don't like the comparison because you're talking about copyrighted artwork being reproduced by hand in an alternate medium.  Want it 100% dead on completely perfect?  How about contacting the rights holders and getting a license to use it? 

Note that I don't have any issue with the way it is being done now.  I have issue with the bitching that it isn't good enough when we're talking about nonlicensed reproduction of copyrighted artwork.

[kastawaykid]

I guess it is all up to personal preference whether you like it or not. Just like everything else in this world (Coke vs Pepsi, Ford vs Chevy).

I played alot of Pinball machines back in the early 80's. The bowling alley probably loved me, because it always seemed like I  was the only one putting money in their pins. Never really liked any video games other than Tempest and Galaga.

Flash ahead twenty some years (2002) and I find Mame. So I build a cabinet and my friends and I start playing Mame and really enjoy it. The games may not be totally perfect, but are close. I love playing all the games from the past that I really did not enjoy playing in the arcade back in the days.

So after all these years I finally buy a house with a basement, I decide I want an arcade.  So as a starter Pin, I purchase an old Alien Poker Pinball, just like I played back in the day at the bowling alley. Not the greatest thing, but something to work on and pass the time. Time goes on and I add a Whirlwind and Taxi machine to my collection.  My basement is not the biggest, so I decide to look into Digital Pinball.

So last year at Pinball at the Zoo , I get the chance to play a Digital Pin. Talk to the owner and get really stoked, because he seems to have the "Hot" set-up (3 displays, and so on). So I finally get to play it and .... I was not really impressed. It just does not look or play like a pin would. I understand that alot of people put their own time and hard work into it (just like Mame), but it just is not my cup of tea. I really wanted to build one  , but because of the experience I decide to buy more pins with the money instead.

Things may have really changed in about a year, but I just don't think that anyone can duplicate the feel and look of pinball. These are just my feelings and my opinions, so take them for what they are.

Kid