polystyrene

[SavannahLion]

Thought I should share this bit of horror.

I was doing some research on polystyrene (aka styrofoam though that's an incorrect name if you want to get technical). I've worked with one form or another of styrene plastics for years. So I was rather comfortable with the ins and outs of it. However, while researching the subject, I came across a strange blurb about electrical wiring and polystyrene. Specifically, there is an issue with polystyrene type insulation and their contact with the electrical wiring in a home. Apparently one of the additives in PVC(?) jacketed wiring reacts with polystyrene effectively melting the plastic. Every first grade science student will tell you that since for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction, the chemical (a softener apparently) that makes polystyrene melt is no longer resident in the PVC making the PVC brittle. This effectively makes the jacket useless and a fire hazard.

While anyone who works with polystyrene and electrical wiring may know this, I did not. Not until this past week and most certainly not seventeen years ago.

To my point....

One of my very first computers of any type was my beloved Atari XEGS. When I turned 15 or so, I packed my Atari away in the original polystyrene foam packaging that it came in. It has remained in that box, untouched, for the last 17 years or so.

While researching the relationship between polystyrene and wiring I discovered that this was why manufacturers of electrical goodies bag their wiring prior to packaging in a polystyrene shell. That rang a little bell of horror. I always try to store all of my old computers and consoles in their OEM packages. Diving into my storage, I pulled out the first one I found, my first electronics goodie ever, my Atari XEGS.

"Did I package this right" I thought? I plopped the polystyrene packaging out and pulled the first of three layers of packaging off. As expected the keyboard had yellowed. I was disappointed but not surprised. With all the other reports of "antique" electronics yellowing I did not expect mine to be any different. After all both my SNES and NES had yellowed quite handily. In any case, my keyboard, joystick, lightgun and games were all bagged.... more or less.

Then I spotted the cords. They were not tucked in their bags but had sprung out like sickly little worms after a rain. Aggh! So I pulled out the light gun, and to my surprise, it escaped unscathed. Except for spotty yellowing, it appeared nearly exactly the way I packaged it. The joystick, however, did not fair well. Good sized chunks of the cord is now "glossy" from the melted polystyrene. The worst of it had sunk into the packaging roughly 1/4" inch. I pulled off the next layer and the power supply wasn't even bagged at all. It too had received the "polystyrene" treatment. Though only on the boot where the cord meets the brick. However, my now experienced and discerning 32 year old eye ball spotted another problem. Stress on the power cord just as it enters the brick. I've seen this damage before, most notably on my favorite space header just before the cord melted apart. The copper cord is likely damaged internally.

So now, off I go to find a replacement power supply before this one burns out (also before any N.O.S. disappears) and a new joystick cord.

I'm also going to have to dig out my other game consoles that I believe (but I'm not 100% certain) may be packaged in their OEM boxes. I know my N64 is. My PSX is in a refurb box and I'm not sure where my Lynx is. My 1st (dead) Gennie is but no cords. That's just the game consoles. I'm not sure what some of my older electronics equipment are stored in so I'll have to double check them as well.

[SavannahLion]

Forgot the photos.

These were taken with my camera phone. I can't seem to find the higher quality camera anywhere.

The cord is a little harder to discern because of the shine from the light. Couldn't seem to position it just right to avoid that sheen. Before this photo, the styrene was actually a layer of solid white (you can see a small smidge still on the cord). I scraped it off with my finger nail to see just how deep the damage was. This was the part of the cord that buried itself 1/4" into the packaging.

The keyboard shows just how yellowed it's gotten. Strangely enough, on the phone itself, it came out a nice gray tone.  

[WhereEaglesDare]

Interesting... how long does it take for the polystyrene to effect electrical wire jackets to the point of fire hazard?

[SavannahLion]

Interesting... how long does it take for the polystyrene to effect electrical wire jackets to the point of fire hazard?

I haven't the foggiest. From the small amount of research I've done so far, it appears to be a "recent" concern. I don't really know enough about building codes to pinpoint a time frame. I plan on doing more research today.

 My XEGS was stored for over 17 years and showed damage (though not the brittleness). I also found an exercise ball that was on contact with a styrene based stapler that melted the stapler shell but did nothing to the ball. The stapler and ball was in a box for three years. I found that about three months ago and, at the time, assumed it was from the composition of the "squash" material inside the ball. Now I wonder if the ball was some type of PVC? I don't know. Styrene, I'm good with. PVC eh... not so much.

The wiring inside your wall isn't made to be handled extensively once it is installed so the composition of the PVC is obviously different than the wire used for a joystick.

[ChadTower]

As a long time console collector I have seen that on cords a million times.  I always chalked it up to aging rubber but never knew what caused it or why I saw it so often on some things (RF cords) but not on others (controllers).  Very interesting.

[BobA]

Thanks for the info.  It may help save some old consoles.

[ChadTower]

Well it's not like it destroys anything.  All you have to do is wrap the funky part of the cord.  I've never seen one that was so bad the object was destroyed.  It's more like you grab the wire and there is a segment where the insulation is slimy and soft for no obvious reason.

[SavannahLion]

As a long time console collector I have seen that on cords a million times.  I always chalked it up to aging rubber but never knew what caused it or why I saw it so often on some things (RF cords) but not on others (controllers).  Very interesting.

In an archive where I worked, cracked rubber anything was ridiculously common. There's two things that occur. Either the "rubber" turns brittle and disentigrates or it turns to goo. No one in that field understands the how or why for 99% of the stuff.

I think this won't be the cause of that cord that's been sitting on a wood basement shelf for the past 50 years but I finally know why the Hell my styrene based stuff keeps melting and the PVC based stuff keeps turning to dust.

It may be prudent to double check the shells too. I recalled an article about the yellowing of plastics on the console so I re-read the article http://www.vintagecomputing.com/index.php/archives/189 and found what I suspected. That a type of styrene was used in the cases of electronics. Not all consoles (if any) used styrene shells. SNES used ABS as per the article. Still, it wouldn't hurt to catalogue the consoles and avoid the problems.

[SavannahLion]

Well it's not like it destroys anything.  All you have to do is wrap the funky part of the cord.  I've never seen one that was so bad the object was destroyed.  It's more like you grab the wire and there is a segment where the insulation is slimy and soft for no obvious reason.

Are we talking about the same thing? Ive seen the goo symptom but never on electrical wires.

The cord, mine at least, isn't actually gooey. Once i removed the hard white polystyrene, the underlying layer was flaky and crispy. More akin to a bad heat damage.

On the PSU cord, the melted styrene is even harder like a shellac.

[ChadTower]

I'm talking about game console cords.  It's not unusual to find old ones that have been stored in the styrofoam and have soft and slightly gooey spots on them.  I had never really put the cause and effect together before.  I always wiped the goo off with a paper towel and you can see where the cord insulation is thinner in those spots.  In really bad cases it exposes the inner wires.

After having had a day to think about it I seem to remember seeing it most often with Odyssey 2 and Ti99 cords.  When I found those systems they were usually stored in the beaten up box, with styrofoam, but no bags.  Just like you described.  Most of them had probably been that way for 25-30 years, too.

[CCM]

Uh oh!   I better check my Commodore 64's that I have stashed in the basement in the original styrofoam! 

[SavannahLion]

Makes sense. Manufacturers can add all sorts of chemicals to PVC to change the properties. So the wire in your home will turn brittle, same for the Atari. It O2 likely had a different source for the wire and, ultimately, a different formulation and a different outcome.

On top of that mine was stored for ~17 years. what if after 25 the goo forms?

[ark_ader]

I vacuum pack all my old stuff before it goes into the shed.  Wires go into the wire box and any Styrofoam gets put in the trash.

I, like Chad, have seen this especially in climate controlled component storage and could never figure out what caused it. 

Thanks for the heads up, about this. 

[ChadTower]

Now that I think more about it I have been working on a batch of g05s recently.  The anode cap and wire on all of them was covered in goo.  There's no styrofoam in there but I wonder what caused that insulation to soften so much.

[SavannahLion]

I vacuum pack all my old stuff before it goes into the shed.  Wires go into the wire box and any Styrofoam gets put in the trash.

I, like Chad, have seen this especially in climate controlled component storage and could never figure out what caused it. 

Thanks for the heads up, about this. 

Must ask.... what's with the spoilers?

[SavannahLion]

Now that I think more about it I have been working on a batch of g05s recently.  The anode cap and wire on all of them was covered in goo.  There's no styrofoam in there but I wonder what caused that insulation to soften so much.

I wouldn't dare venture to say Styrofoam is the cause of all roasted wires. But maybe something else? I'm at work right now and last night I got distracted with something else but.....

ANAICT PVC is known to outgas whatever is inside. Kind of makes me wonder exactly how safe PVC really is as a water pipe. It's a property of PVC I guess. So, if an outgassed softener reacts with styrene maybe there's a "hardener" or solidifier that's put in some wire that's also outgassed?

It really makes me wonder if that was why these wheels suffered that way because some stabilizer was outgassed? They seem to be coated in a similar substance that makes up the electrical wire jackets.

[Hoopz]

Must ask.... what's with the spoilers?

Don't ask.  He's being petulant.  

[JeepMonkey]

PVC = polyvinyl chloride

This is a common jacket type for wires in an industrial / commercial setting.  Where I work, we will use miles and miles of cable for a project.  We typically stay away from PVC jacketed cable.  One reason is it is not fire resistant.  When a fire is melting PVC jacketed cable, it lets off chlorine vapor, mixing with the sprinkler water, making acidic water spraying on everything.

This doesn't have much to do with polystyrene, but thought you might like to know a little more about PVC jacketed cable.

[saint]

When we build a new school, I require Plenum rated (non-PVC) cable for all data/voice applications. PVC is nasty stuff.