My Cab... !!!UPDATED!!!

[Gromet]

Etumor,

Welcome to the board, Just wanted to tell you that it was your design that had first inspired me to go with a dual layer design.   I had seen a pic of it somewhere and could never figure out where I had seen it.  I later found out there is a link to your site on the OSCAR board.

Thank you for the inspiration, I LOVE my CP and your design.  If I could go back I wouldn't change a thing...

As for SirPoonga, Since I posted my response to him, he has yet to respond.   I don't know if he has not seen my response or has chosen to ignore it.  Figures...

Thanks for the backup, I do appreciate it.

Again, Love your design, and I credit you completly for the dual layer Idea...

[CitznFish]

SirPoonga,

I understand your standing and place on this board and have the utmost respect but my god you are rude.  " oh no, not another with that crappy trackball layout on the double decker design.  That is a horrible spot to put a tball unless all you play is missle command and centipede."  I don't know your situation perhapps you were orn with some sort of deformaty or are just a bit "slow" that you cant control your flailing arm Golden Tee slam moves.  I play a ton of trackball games ( Marble Madness being my favorite) all day long and like I said the onlr reason that you would possibly have any issue would be in playing golden tee but i'm sorry even on a real golden tee dedicated machine there is no reason to HAVE to go so nuts with the trackball.

Have you ever stepped up to my cab or one with these specs or are you just speculating that you would have an issue with it?  Even if you have as a Global Moderator" of the board I guess I just didn't expect such a quick rude remarklike that.  I can handle criticism as well as anyone but there is no need to be rude about it.

Sorry for the rant, just supprissed me is all...

I'm going to have to back Gromet up on this.  I built the original double decker control panel (http://www.cybercoma.com/supercade), and I've read the comments that "SirPoonga" made about it as well -- and I was pretty surprised, since to my knowledge, I've never had him over to play my machine, so I don't really know where he is drawing his conclusions.

Granted, I have never played any golf games, so I can't attest to their playability (nor do I care, but I understand that some people are quite fond of them).  But Missile Command, Centipede, Millipede, Marble Madness, and Crystal Castles all play beautifully -- and I can't imagine a game where you have to spin the trackball harder than Marble Madness.

SirPoonga has also complained that the double layer design makes it difficult to reach the upper controls -- this is absolutely not true.  I've had dozens of people play on my machine, and not a single one of them has ever complained about having to reach over the lower controls -- that was the whole point of the design from the beginning, was that the upper panel is raised up so that the controls in front of it don't get in the way.

I realize that everyone is entitled to their opinion -- but this is at least the fourth time that SirPoonga has bad-mouthed my design, so I thought it was time to stand up for it.

-Jeff "etumor" Allen

About time you post on this board! I've been admiring your design for at least 7 months.  I love that you posted your plans.

i do have a question though... how do you have it set up for Asteroids?  I love the vanguard layout! (One of my fav games!)

[etumor]

About time you post on this board! I've been admiring your design for at least 7 months.  I love that you posted your plans.

i do have a question though... how do you have it set up for Asteroids?  I love the vanguard layout! (One of my fav games!)

I'm not big on messageboards these days.  Too much name calling and stupidity (nothing personal against this messageboard or anyone on it -- it's an observation about messageboards in general -- this one seems pretty civil and helpful).  Earlier today I was browsing the site, and it suddenly occurred to me to run a search on the messageboard for "Supercade," out of curiosity.  I was pleased to see that there had been a fair amount of discussion about my cab.

To answer your question, on Asteroids I use the upper center joystick for right/left movement, and the side buttons for the other three controls (thrust, fire, and hyperspace).  Yes, I know that isn't the authentic way to play it, but it's close, and it still feels right.

-Jeff "etumor" Allen

[SirPoonga]

etumor, you made supercade, huh?  I have to ask, how do you play trackball games?  Doesn't the top deck get in the way?  Or do you just player missle command, centipede, and marble madness?

[Gromet]

SirPoonga,

So you have never played on a dual layer CP, yet you come in and put them down for being badly designed and not being playable.  You have absolutely NO CLUE what you are talking about and have no place making statements without anything at all to back them up.  After your comments I went home and have been playing the hell out of Golden Tee games.  My knuckles are still in perfect shape.  I could see it being a problem if you had the sensitivity turned way down on your trackball and had to wind up and really HIT the hell out of the ball to make a swing.  I have mine set too normal levels and have no problems at all playing and Playing well... I was quite impressed with my scores on quite a few of my games.

I just don't understand where you get off trying to comment like you are an authority on the subject, when the fact is you have NEVER even stepped up to a dual layer CP.  Come on over and play my machine for a few hours, i'll have plenty of Band-Aids on hand for you, Just in case.  If after you play on it you still have issues, than you can rip the design to shreds if you like, but please keep your opinions to things you have a clue about.

[etumor]

etumor, you made supercade, huh?  I have to ask, how do you play trackball games?  Doesn't the top deck get in the way?  Or do you just player missle command, centipede, and marble madness?

I don't even understand the question.  I play trackball games just like you would expect to play them (or at least like I would expect to play them).  I mentioned a few trackball games in an earlier post -- those are the trackball games that get the majority of use on my machine, and there is plenty of room to play them.

As for golf games, I'll say it again -- I've never played Golden Tee and the like and have no interest in them, so I don't really understand what it is about them that would make them difficult to play.  Both Marble Madness and Crystal Castles require quick, hard spins of the trackball, and in both of those cases, it works beautifully.

To be fair, when I developed the design originally, I did wonder if having the trackball in front of the upper panel would be a problem.  I did some experiments with my previous machine, and decided that as long as there were a few inches free around the trackball, then there wouldn't be a problem.  I'm happy to report having actually built and played on the machine that there is really no problem at all.

As has been mentioned by others, I suppose if you spun the trackball forward really hard and let your whole arm carry through, then you might hit the upper CP (although presumably your arm would arch up, and there may be enough distance that your hand would clear anyway) -- but I don't play games that way, and so far no one else who has played the machine has commented on it, so I have to assume they don't either.

But let's assume for a moment that Golden Tee is mostly unplayable on the machine.  So are Ikari Warriors, Star Wars, and Spy Hunter (for the most part).  It isn't possible to support every single game perfectly on a single machine, so it comes down to priorities.  All of the trackball games that I am interested in work perfectly.  And I can also play Street Fighter, Gauntlet, Tempest, and Tron perfectly, plus a thousand more.

If Golden Tee is your thing, then you might want a different design.  It's all about priorities.  I gladly give up Golden Tee for the other 1500+ that play beautifully.  Your mileage may vary.

-Jeff "etumor" Allen

[nealj]

De-Lurking because this topic is so close to my heart.

I've nearly completed my first cab - also a two tiered design (based on supercade) and I've found it works better than I could have hoped.  I can play nearly any game on the basic setup.  Some games just can't be played on a generic layout so I designed the top tier to be swapable (though we'll see if I ever build any others).

[etumor]

De-Lurking because this topic is so close to my heart.

I've nearly completed my first cab - also a two tiered design (based on supercade) and I've found it works better than I could have hoped.  I can play nearly any game on the basic setup.  Some games just can't be played on a generic layout so I designed the top tier to be swapable (though we'll see if I ever build any others).

Be sure to send me a picture or a link when you've got some photos available.  I can't wait to see it!

-Jeff "etumor" Allen
http://www.cybercoma.com/supercade

[SirPoonga]

etumor, you made supercade, huh?  I have to ask, how do you play trackball games?  Doesn't the top deck get in the way?  Or do you just player missle command, centipede, and marble madness?

Granted, I have never played any golf games, so I can't attest to their playability (nor do I care, but I understand that some people are quite fond of them).  But Missile Command, Centipede, Millipede, Marble Madness, and Crystal Castles all play beautifully -- and I can't imagine a game where you have to spin the trackball harder than Marble Madness.

SirPoonga has also complained that the double layer design makes it difficult to reach the upper controls -- this is absolutely not true.  I've had dozens of people play on my machine, and not a single one of them has ever complained about having to reach over the lower controls -- that was the whole point of the design from the beginning, was that the upper panel is raised up so that the controls in front of it don't get in the way.

As for SirPoonga, Since I posted my response to him, he has yet to respond.  I don't know if he has not seen my response or has chosen to ignore it.  Figures...

I don't even understand the question.  I play trackball games just like you would expect to play them (or at least like I would expect to play them).  I mentioned a few trackball games in an earlier post -- those are the trackball games that get the majority of use on my machine, and there is plenty of room to play them.

Whoops, didn't get through the whole thread before I posted.

As for golf games, I'll say it again -- I've never played Golden Tee and the like and have no interest in them, so I don't really understand what it is about them that would make them difficult to play.  Both Marble Madness and Crystal Castles require quick, hard spins of the trackball, and in both of those cases, it works beautifully.

You assume Golden tee golf, it's just a good example.  Yes, Marble Madness requires fast spins, but usually downward.

There are other games that require a sharp upward motion, like shuffle board, horseshoes, bowling, etc...  That shelf would definately get in the way.   Even mine gets in the way and people stub their fingers on it.  That's my point.

I know you can't make a control panel that does everything.  I'm just pointing out to others if you like those types of trackball games this layout will not work well.

[etumor]

I know you can't make a control panel that does everything.  I'm just pointing out to others if you like those types of trackball games this layout will not work well.

Alright, fair enough, and that was sort of my point as well -- everyone has their priorities, and I think you've made yours clear -- and that's great.  

But you might think about choosing your words a little more carefully.  Here are a few of the ones you used:

- "Actually, I find that a very bad layout.  to reach for that second tier and to play bowling and golf games on the tball are not practical."

- "No, supercade is bad.  You aren;t going to play bowling and golf games on it with comfort.  Plus reaching over controls will get annoying after awhile.  cool attempt though."

- "I don't like the Supercade layout.  Good idea, poor execution.  Basically the trackball is in a horrible spot.  Other than that it isn't that bad."

- "oh no, not another with that crappy trackball layout on the double decker design.  That is a horrible spot to put a tball unless all you play is missle command and centipede."

Rather than merely pointing out that there is a small subset of games that can't be played well on the machine, you make blanket statements that imply it's a bad design for everything.  I realize that part of this is my own pride, but statements like "Supercade is bad,"  "poor execution," and "very bad layout" are more than a little unfair -- particularly given the number of advantages the design actually provides.  It's roughly the equivilant of my saying that your cabinet design is horrible because "could you imagine trying to play Tron on that thing?  And you can't even play three-way Rampage!"

I don't want to belabor the point -- we could go back and forth forever about what you said versus what you meant, so this is the last I'll say on this matter.  Thanks for listening.

-Jeff "etumor" Allen

[SirPoonga]

Rather than merely pointing out that there is a small subset of games that can't be played well on the machine, you make blanket statements that imply it's a bad design for everything.

Right, I don't want to go back and forth either, but I have to point out a misconception here.  I will be a little more specific then

I guess I will educate the masses again.  Been awhile since I told people that there are alot of tball games that are good that you don't think of  Centipede, Rampart, Reactor, Quantum, Millepede, Missle Command, Crystal Castles, Marble Madness, Cabal aren't the only tball games   The majority of the tball games are the sport/sporty type of games like horseshoes, football, soccer, darts, shuffleboard, etc...

There are only about 50 unique (parent) tball games in mame.  Minus the "Classics" above the rest are mostly sport/sporty games.  There are about 8-10 bowling, 3-4 horseshoes, and 2 shuffleboard games (I played a real shuffleshot at the local billiard hall last week).  About 3-4 golf games, About 6 football and baseball games. A volleyball game.  A couple of soccer.  Blades of Steel for hockey, several Darts and billiards.  Then odd stuff like gridlee, snake pit, wacko, and irratating maze.  Hehe, this is all off the top of my head, I play most of these games regularly.  Out of the 50 or so parent roms only about 10 of the tball games aren't worth playing in my opinion.  I only play golf games with one of my friends, I can't see playing those single player and he's a big gtg fan, but gtg isn't really on mame except for the old ones.  But I didn;t make my mame cabinet for just me.  I made it for friends to play on to.  I usually just play the classics too when it is just me.

Actually, after re-reading what you said I think you meant a small subset of the entire mame package.   Sorry, I meant if you are going to put a tball on your control panel why only support the small subset of "classics" I listed above.  Especially if you play with friends  Drunken World Class Bowling rules.  I know you can't support all the mame games, that's impossible, I should know, I am the founder of the controls.dat project.  But if you are going to put the control on your panel might as well support as many of the games that use that control.
 
There, I covered my blanket statements with some good food for thought.