Why do all game sites keep gushing over Kinect's voice commands?

[VanillaGorilla]

Anybody wanna buy a 360/kinnect? PM me. Seriously, I'm done with it.

[shmokes]

I played Kinect Sports a bunch over the weekend.  Was visiting family and my nephew has it.  It was retarded.  Also very laggy.  Unfortunately he didn't have Dance Central (or any other game, as far as I know--actually I guess he has Kinect Adventures, or whatever comes with the camera, but I didn't play it).

[dre-w]

Or . . . it could be that it's been a long time since I played it.  I'm just sayin'

Two of the most commonly used phrases said when there's nothing left to back up their argument and ultimately give up w/o admitting defeat:

"I'm just sayin"  and  "Yeh but still"

 

[shmokes]

Or when you are forced to state the obvious, like in this case . . .

[lilshawn]

Yeah but still,  when you are forced to state the obvious, like in this case . . . I'm just sayin'

there i fixed your post for you.. 

[dre-w]

Yeah but still,  when you are forced to state the obvious, like in this case . . . I'm just sayin'

there i fixed your post for you.. 

 

[shmokes]

Lilshawn, putting aside the strangeness of advertising your broadband speed in every single post, what is up with your internet?  What kind of crazy service gives you 40 megs down but only 1/2 a meg up?  I mean it's always usually lopsided, but . . .

Also, when a sentence ends with, I'm just sayin' it always means the same thing as 'I hate to state the obvious'.  I'm just sayin'.   

[shmokes]

I just played Angry Birds for almost half an hour.  It's so ---smurfing--- bad.  Randy, what in god's name is wrong with you?  How can you like this game?  It's one of the worst games I have ever played.  Dora for Nintendo Wii is better. 

[RandyT]

Dora for Nintendo Wii is better. 

Sure it is.

[shmokes]

 

[lilshawn]

Lilshawn, putting aside the strangeness of advertising your broadband speed in every single post, what is up with your internet?  What kind of crazy service gives you 40 megs down but only 1/2 a meg up?  I mean it's always usually lopsided, but . . .

Also, when a sentence ends with, I'm just sayin' it always means the same thing as 'I hate to state the obvious'.  I'm just sayin'.   

it's supposed to be 50/3Mbs but I actually have the upload speed capped on my network firewall so my torrents don't get out of hand. if I go overboard on the upload, they'll shut it down. i don't do much uploading, so i's no big deal to have it at .5mb when all you sent out is HTTP requests

[Dartful Dodger]

I finally got a chance to play the Kinects.

Wow!
...I mean WOW!!!

There may not be any good games for it yet, but it's one heck of a gimmick.
If I had an xBox I'd buy it.

Luckily I own a PS3 and a Wii.
The PS3 cancels out any interest in buying an xBox and the Wii cancels out any interest in buying the Move.

[dre-w]

Also, when a sentence ends with, I'm just sayin' it always means the same thing as 'I hate to state the obvious'.  I'm just sayin'.   

Yeh but still, I was jus sayin'...


So I'm stating the obvious now

[Mikezilla]

I love how this thread is still kicking. 

[shmokes]

So, Randy, seeing as more than a year has gone by, I'm interested to know if your prognosis for the Kinect has changed.

[Malenko]

I ended up getting one, with 4 games GunStringer, Fruit Ninja, and Kinect Adventures came with it for $100ish, also got Dance Central 2. I think its pretty accurate and the kind of games made for it work well, but I still prefer a controller in my hands and I cant really say I like dancing (I am white after all)

[RandyT]

So, Randy, seeing as more than a year has gone by, I'm interested to know if your prognosis for the Kinect has changed.

Uncanny.  I was just thinking earlier today that I should resurrect this trainwreck of a thread.  In answer to your question; not really.  I don't often shell out $50+ for the latest releases, so I can't comment on what's out there now.  A few have caught my eye though.

But here's some recent updates on the tech in general.

66 million 360's and 18 million Kinects sold.
Kinect for Windows
Kinect for mobile devices
Kinect SDK
Interesting $10 Kinect diversion

Microsoft is still demonstrating an extremely strong commitment to the technology, and states "they are only starting to scratch the surface".  Must be something the consumer likes in that little black box.

[shmokes]

Oh, I never had any doubts that MS planned to do big things with it. If you'll recall, I simply didn't think it would be a success in the current generation. But I always thought, and said in this thread, that the tech would feature heavily in Xbox 3.

I'll freely admit that 18 million units is a good three times what I expected, but as an add-on peripheral that puts it at substantially shy of the success of the Wii Balance Board. Publishers are still faced with the same problem--focus the budget on the 66 million strong market, or spend the same amount of money on a game that is incompatible with 48 million of those 66 million Xboxes.

And like clockwork, the software support seems to be exactly what I predicted. MS is not seriously supporting the device. Neither are third parties. Still not a single AAA title for the device after like 14 months on the market plus however long dev kits were out prior to release. It's not taken seriously in this generation. Just a bunch of low budget party games and exercise programs.

With that said, there's an absolutely brilliant commercial for the upcoming Kinect Star Wars. I'd link to it, but I'm on an iPad and if I change tabs the stupid thing will reload the page when I switch back to this tab and I'll lose everything I wrote. The commercial is awesome, though. I recommend tracking it down. If the game is half as good as the commercial you may finally have your game with depth that I was hounding you about way back when. The commercial shows no gameplay, so there's no reason to think that will be the case. But it's awesome.

Edit: here it is

[Howard_Casto]

I hate to burst your bubble, but that game is going to be crap.  It was previewed all the way back at E3, and unless they managed to completely change gameplay mechanics it isn't all that great. 

Ever played the swordfighting mini game in Wii Sport Resort?  It's that.  The only difference is you have all of these unintuitive "force power" gestures that you have to deal with and because the Kinect sensor is involved instead of a proper wand/wiimote it often has problems tracking your movements, especially with the saber fighting. 


I still see Kinect being dropped completely.  Yes it has had a high adoption rate, and yes microsoft seems to be investing a great deal of time and money into getting the thing utilized.... but has that ever stopped them from dropping a product cold-turkey, without warning, before?

Sidewinder gamepads, Sidewinder joysticks, xbox-classic peripherals, true force-feedback, the 360 racing wheel, heck direct input!

These were all immensely popular hardware tech and software tech that Microsoft just up and ended support one day, without warning or reason.

It seems to me that the problem lies in M$'s huge bank account.  They'll string along a product for ages debating on if it's worth supporting.  One day they'll just decide to move on, because they can afford to do so.

Now if Kinect was doing fantastic then this would be less of a concern, but as you said, it doesn't even have the adoption rate of the balance board, and boy was that thing a flop. 

I think the Kinect could be popular on the PC for home theater applications, but that's about it. 

Oh and the funny thing is... I was going to resurrect this train-wreck as well, because of the original title and what Tyco and Gabe made a couple of weeks ago:

[shmokes]

Heh . . . it doesn't burst anything of mine. I'm just here for the awesome commercial.

[RandyT]

There goes Howard with his often times myopic "crystal ball" again

Comparing the Kinect to the Wii's "balance board", simply through the sales numbers, is just fanboi excrement.  I too bought one of those boards and played around with it a total of twice.  The Kinect, however, has seen a great deal of use, and I still like to play some of the games I have for it (when I can find the time.)  It's always a fun and satisfying experience.

As for MS dropping support, a handful of items were mentioned that were poorly adopted, and which still actually work without extra support required.  I do admit, though, that I have yet to plug my Sidewinder force feedback joystick into my Win7 machine to see if it recognizes it.  I'm guessing it will still work at some level.  Pretty sure my 360 racing wheel still works as well.

There are currently 74 games or "experiences" in the Kinect catalog.  It's not uncommon to see a new game with the Kinect sticker on it nowadays.

I still think they need to hybridize the control scheme with a simple "power glove" type device, with a button or two, to get the best use of the tech.  But I get the feeling they are doing everything possible to avoid the "Wiimote through the LCD TV" scenario.  I still believe they, or a third party publisher, will do this at some point.

The Kinect will not be "dropped completely", at least not until some better tech comes along to replace it.  The sales numbers show that quite a few folks bought a 360 because of the Kinect.  Few peripherals can tout this kind of popularity.  It's also an open ended item, as there is a lot one can do with 3D vision technology, with the right software.  Compared to a rudimentary 2.5 axis pressure sensor like the Wii balance board.....well, there's no comparison.  Also bear in mind that no-one here knows exactly what the capabilities of the Kinect hardware truly are.  How much more refined can the system become with the right software support?  Look at the first year titles from any video game system and compare them to those 3 years later.  Will the Kinect enjoy this kind of refinement?  Only Howard can tell you

It's not going to be for everyone, and it's obvious that those who view the technology as a "problem" fall into that group.  But developers are finding new things to do with it, and will continue to as long as the demand is there and they learn new ways to harness the data being generated by the hardware.

And regardless of the Star Wars game itself, the teaser is a riot    I think it will have to be a decent title, considering the franchise and the control it's owners have over the products bearing it's name.

[ark_ader]

The Kinect will not be "dropped completely", at least not until some better tech comes along to replace it.  The sales numbers show that quite a few folks bought a 360 because of the Kinect.  Few peripherals can tout this kind of popularity.  It's also an open ended item, as there is a lot one can do with 3D vision technology, with the right software.  Compared to a rudimentary 2.5 axis pressure sensor like the Wii balance board.....well, there's no comparison.  Also bear in mind that no-one here knows exactly what the capabilities of the Kinect hardware truly are.  How much more refined can the system become with the right software support?  Look at the first year titles from any video game system and compare them to those 3 years later.  Will the Kinect enjoy this kind of refinement?  Only Howard can tell you

A mate works for Microsoft and he said there will be a new Kinect coming out for corporate desktops soon.

Supposed to interact with Office.  Minority Report gestures?

[shmokes]

I think it will have to be a decent title, considering the franchise and the control it's owners have over the products bearing it's name.

Maybe it'll be decent, but not for the reason you said. There have been plenty of crap Star Wars games (and films) over the years. Hopefully it'll be great. From what I've seen of it, though (one screenshot), it doesn't seem to be getting triple-A treatment--at least not in the graphics department. But it might just be early. I think the game's not scheduled to come out till the end of the year.

[Howard_Casto]

There goes Howard with his often times myopic "crystal ball" again

Well if you would go back and look at some of the things I've predicted, I'm like 75-80% accurate.  The truth hurts sometimes. 

You like Kinect I get it... but don't desperately try to defend you purchase by predicting that such an off the wall device will ever be a huge success.  The fact that you like it and you are getting enjoyment out of it is more than enough. 

[versapak]

Umm...

How is 18 million sold in just over a year not a huge success?

[shmokes]

Umm...

How is 18 million sold in just over a year not a huge success?

Well . . . don't get me wrong. As a product at market 18 million is nothing to shake a stick at. But one way it has not been a success is as a platform on which developers can make fun games. In this way it is quite comparable to the Wii Fit. That peripheral sold 22 million, so at first blush it seems like the thing would be ripe for development. But publishers have for the most part just thrown together inexpensive crap for it. They don't commit big budgets to it. And of course they wouldn't. It costs the same to develop for the Balance Board as it does to develop for the normal Wii Controller. But while the Balance Board has a 22 million person market, the regular Wii has like 100 million or something. Kinect is in the same boat. It's a huge success when taken out of context. But it's a failure at doing what it's ostensibly meant for--to be a legitimate and compelling development platform. It's not nearly the success that it would need to be to overcome the problem of splitting the market. 18 million is a lot. But not enough to be taken seriously.

Thus, of the 74 games Randy mentioned, only two (Dance Central 1 and 2) have a >80 rating on Metacritic. I see no reason to think this situation will change between now and the end of the 360's life.

[Howard_Casto]

Umm...

How is 18 million sold in just over a year not a huge success?

If you mean successful in that M$ has made a lot of money from selling it, then that may be true, but otherwise it hasn't been sucessful thus far because:

1.  There are far more xbox 360's then there are Kinects

2.  The numbers sold figure is tainted by the fact that it includes console bundles.  It's like measuring the success of the number of wiimotes sold when one wiimote comes with every wii.  

3.  Only two games thus far have been released for the device (excluding pack-ins of course) have been successfull, namely dance central and dance central 2.  

Measuring the success of a controller is tricky.  Sales is definately important, in that low sales usually mean failure, but high sales doesn't always mean success.  That being said 18 million isn't high considering they sold roughly half a million 360's last march alone.    This is just a rought estimate, but in general a hardware accessory needs to have at least a 60-70% attachment rate before a lot of developers will start making games for it.  As Shmokes said earlier, it just doesn't make good business sense to develop for a controller that most of your users don't have.  Historically speaking... throughout the entire history of video game consoles, the only time a controller that wasn't shipped with the console has been successful is if the controller shipped with the console was "broken" in some way (like the genesis 3 button controller, or the ps1 digital-only controller).  

Just to give you an example, they have sold a metric ton of WiiMote Plus remotes, but I wouldn't consider the WiiMote Plus a success.  Why?  Well only two commercial games of any promenance use the device (Red Steel 2 and Tiger Woods) and in the first party department Nintendo has only released two Party Games (sports resort and wii play motion) and and Single Successful "real" title.  (Skyward sword.)  The wiimote+ is good tech, but it isn't a success, at least not this gen.  Boy it's lineup sure does sound familair doesn't it?  It's almost as if I picked that example on purpose.  

That being said, the wiimote+ will be successful in the long run because Nintendo is no longer producing the classic wiimote and any wiimote sales for the wii U will be wiimote+.  

Microsoft has this out as well.  If they force adoption by bundling the kinect sensor with every xbox 720 then it might be possible to get it popularized.  It's tricky though because even then it wouldn't be your primary controller.  Regardless, Microsoft, thus far, has been pretty bad about their optional components.  Even now they sell some 360's without a harddrive!  The wii U, on the other hand, is pretty much expecting consumers to buy wiimotes if they want to play multiplayer games, so it will be successfull.  

It's insainely complex, unfortuantely.

[Howard_Casto]

Heh... shmokes replied while I was preparing mine...

I agree 100% with what you said, of course we basically said the same thing. 

I think I found of a good example to put things into context and it mirrors EXACTLY what is happening to the Kinect.  The NES Zapper.

The NES zapper was heavily backed by NOA upon the nintendo's release.  It was even promenantly bundled with the console.  There were bundles that didn't include the zapper though and the gamepad was the primary controller that was included with every nes, bundle or no.

The zapper was praised by critics and gamers alike because of the potential it had, and everyone expected it to go far.

Initially get got two top tier games directly from nintendo, Duck Hunt and Hogan's alley.  Things were looking up... until the third parties decided to give it a go. 

The third parties were scared to fully commit to a controller so they optionally supported it, with the zapper support being far worse than the standard gamepad (Operation Wolf), made it a secondary part of gameplay that's basically forgettable (bayou billy) or just ignored it completely. 

Meanwhile, Nintendo was struggling to figure out what to do with the device besides shooting targets on the screen.  They experimented with games like gumshoe, but ultimately a standard gamepad would have been more efficient. 

Then then started to waine support themselves, going for the optional route (balloon fight).  Eventually they stopped making games for it and the third party developers did as well.

In the end you have a dozen or so games with partial support and a handfull with full support.  Out of that handfull, only two or three are considered to be good. 

This is EXACTLY what is going on with the Kinect right now.....  Microsoft's first-party lineup has been really short and really limited.  Thrid party support is either supplimental to a a gamepad game, shoddy, or non-existant, and everybody is trying to figure out just what the heck a 3d-camera is good for game-wise besides full body tracking, which isn't as useful as it sounds on paper.

Now of course, the sales are larger, but these days consoles sell a lot better, and of course 74 is a lot bigger number than a dozen, but this isn't the 80's when you had hurdles like quality control and getting a game burned onto a 80 dollar cart to overcome.  I mean hell, fruit ninja was originally an ipad game. 

My point isn't that the Kinect is a terrible controller, far from it in fact, it's just that it's a specilized controller that isn't the default controller for the console, and those almost never do well.

[versapak]

Of course I am measuring the success buy how well it has sold and made money for MS. Any other measuer of success is nothing but the opinion of an individual, and as such can have no real measurement. Just because you or any other individual doesn't like a game means nothing if the games continue to sell. They are successful, regardless of your or anyone elses personal opinion of them.

A direct comparison of the number of Kinect sold to the number of 360 sold is an unbalanced comparison. For starters the 360 has been selling alone without the Kinect for 5 times as long. Secondly, the number of 360 sold is not at all a realistic estimate of how many 360 are actually out there working. I personally have 4 360 that are not working along with my 2 that do work, but I personally count as 6 of those 360 sold. Obviously 4 of those 360 absolutely will not have a Kinect purchased for them, and of those two that do function, only 1 will ever have a Kinect connected to it.

Also, to dismiss Kinects sold in bundles is ridiculous. It is not like the 360 only somes with Kinect now. The Kinect bundle is only one of a few different choices that a consumer has when purchasing a 360, and anyone purchasing that bundle is doing so specifically to buy a Kinect.

[shmokes]

Of course I am measuring the success buy how well it has sold and made money for MS. Any other measuer of success is nothing but the opinion of an individual, and as such can have no real measurement.

Oh . . . I don't know. I think we could come up with an example where looking exclusively at units sold doesn't necessarily paint an accurate picture of success. For example:

the number of 360 sold is not at all a realistic estimate of how many 360 are actually out there working.

BTW, what would possess you to keep buying those things? I mean, one breaks and you're just unlucky. But when the second one does the same thing . . . doesn't that tell you something? No? Well surely when the third one broke you realized there was something wrong. Wait YOU BOUGHT A FOURTH ONE? And that one, like the previous three, broke. And yet you still bought numbers five and six? WTF is wrong with you, LOL?

Anyway, of course there are all sorts of legitimate and useful ways of looking at things besides absolute units sold. Attach rate, for example, is a very important metric for the success of videogame consoles, independent of console sales. Developer support is another (if for no other reason than the effect it has on attach rate). Developer support for Kinect is, objectively, poor.

[versapak]

Of course I am measuring the success buy how well it has sold and made money for MS. Any other measuer of success is nothing but the opinion of an individual, and as such can have no real measurement.

Oh . . . I don't know. I think we could come up with an example where looking exclusively at units sold doesn't necessarily paint an accurate picture of success. For example:

the number of 360 sold is not at all a realistic estimate of how many 360 are actually out there working.

BTW, what would possess you to keep buying those things? I mean, one breaks and you're just unlucky. But when the second one does the same thing . . . doesn't that tell you something? No? Well surely when the third one broke you realized there was something wrong. Wait YOU BOUGHT A FOURTH ONE? And that one, like the previous three, broke. And yet you still bought numbers five and six? WTF is wrong with you, LOL?

Anyway, of course there are all sorts of legitimate and useful ways of looking at things besides absolute units sold. Attach rate, for example, is a very important metric for the success of videogame consoles, independent of console sales. Developer support is another (if for no other reason than the effect it has on attach rate). Developer support for Kinect is, objectively, poor.

Ummm...

Those sales are still a sign of success, because I liked it enough to keep buying them.

Do you have official numbers to show poor developer support for Kinect? Do you have official numbers showing a low attatch rate for Kinect? I agree that you can measure degrees of success based on those, but they are only part of the picture? Was the N64 a failure? I don't think so. I loved that thing, but support for that was mostly poop.

It is not a core gaming device, and it will never have the kind of support that the console alone will have. I can't see that as a measure of its success, because it is something different. Core gamers don't want their core games to control that way, and even if it had been a part of the system from the very first day, you would not see it as the dominant form of control for the system.

I personally have:

Dance Central
Kinect Sports
Kinect Sports 2
Cheerleading (Don't remember the actual name of the game. It is my daughter's who is a cheerleader)
Your Shape Fitness
UFC Personal Trainer
Gunstringer
Kinectimals
Fruit Ninja (Freebie with Gunstringer, but I do play it)
Kinect Adventures (Freebie obviously, and I actually don't like it much at all)

Am I out of the norm with my 10 Kinect Games? I would think that 10 games a year is decent for an attatch rate.

[RandyT]

Well if you would go back and look at some of the things I've predicted, I'm like 75-80% accurate.  The truth hurts sometimes.  

Name some of your predictions that have come to pass, and some which haven't.  I'm genuinely curious about your accuracy, and can help you with the latter.

You like Kinect I get it... but don't desperately try to defend you purchase by predicting that such an off the wall device will ever be a huge success.  The fact that you like it and you are getting enjoyment out of it is more than enough.  

Howard, I do like it.  It represents a leap in interaction with games and computers that was not possible to this extent before.  It's technology that has captured the imaginations of innovators.  It's also responsible for the sales of a ton of 360's, simply because it was the only way to experience it.  It is, by any reasonable measure, a huge success.  You are simply applying a personal standard of "success" that it cannot measure up to.  I personally don't like much about the Wii I own.  The only reason it's not collecting dust is because I put it back into the box I bought it in.  I will not, however, argue that it was not a huge commercial success.  I am simply far too jaded to be enamored by the technology it uses, or the experience it provides.  That in no way means that there aren't millions of folks who think it, and the company which built it, are the best thing since toast. The most telling thing in this discussion is that a couple of the main detractors are folks who personally own neither the 360 or the Kinect.  

Oh . . . I don't know. I think we could come up with an example where looking exclusively at units sold doesn't necessarily paint an accurate picture of success. For example:

Please do.

BTW, what would possess you to keep buying those things? I mean, one breaks and you're just unlucky. But when the second one does the same thing . . . doesn't that tell you something? No? Well surely when the third one broke you realized there was something wrong. Wait YOU BOUGHT A FOURTH ONE? And that one, like the previous three, broke. And yet you still bought numbers five and six? WTF is wrong with you, LOL?

Have you never replaced an optical drive or hard drive in your PC?  If you have, what possibly possessed you to do so?  In the early days of CD-ROM drives, I replaced one after 6 months that cost the same as TWO 360's.  Why?  Because I wanted to use the capabilities that device could deliver.  The fact that so many continue to purchase 360's regardless of the failure rate should be telling you something.  Also keep in mind that few of the units end up in the trash.  They can be, and often are, very successfully repaired, to live long and useful lives.  I have two, and the one very early production model that failed took me two times to get it right, but it's fully functioning and in it's 5th year of operation.  Good luck doing that with a wonky hard drive.

Anyway, of course there are all sorts of legitimate and useful ways of looking at things besides absolute units sold. Attach rate, for example, is a very important metric for the success of videogame consoles, independent of console sales. Developer support is another (if for no other reason than the effect it has on attach rate). Developer support for Kinect is, objectively, poor.

You are simply applying a Howard-esque personal measurement.  Had you used the word "subjectively", your statement would have been more credible.  74 titles with many more on the way, indicates a good deal of developer support.  Your yardstick seems only to have quantities of "A's" on it, starting with three.  If the Kinect was only supported by a pile of fun $5 360 Arcade titles, it would be considered by any rational metric as "successful and supported".  Fortunately for those who have bought in, it goes well beyond.

[shmokes]

Tell that to Metacritic, Randy. Every system has shovelware. Kintect has it exclusively (almost).

Please do.

Next time you are looking for an example of something, it might help to look at the part that comes immediately after the words, "For example:"

But maybe this will help: Grim Fandango, Psychonauts, Beyond Good and Evil. We could leave videogames too. Arrested Development, Shawshank Redemption. Sales is not the only measure of success.

Anyway, without context absolute sales doesn't tell you much. You need context for the number to have any meaning.  18 million is a lot if you're talking about the number of dollars in your bank account, but not so much if you're talking about the number of dollars an oil company made in a year. The context here is a console add-on, a la the Sega 32x, Sega CD, N64 Memory Pack, etc.  I just don't see you providing any compelling evidence that 18 million is enough to render irrelevant the split market. 18 million is a subjectively large number. But 60 million is objectively larger. Publishers will put their money wherever they think it will generate the largest return. That seems pretty obvious. .

Now . . . if after all this time Kinect had a stable (or even a handful) of good games, I might be inclined to think that maybe 18 million really did surpass the magic number. But . . . Dance Central (1 and 2) is all there is. They are the ONLY games that made it out of 7 territory (which in Videogame review language is about the equivalent of a C or D grade). I guess I just don't see what in the world you're basing your position on.

 

[Howard_Casto]

Sorry guys, you all seem to think I'm forming an opinion of the Kinects success when I'm stating facts.  

When shmokes and myself are talking about "poor developer support" that is qualtifiable.  

Of your 74 games, 34 of them are ports form other systems.... since the kinect is such a unique device, those are obviously developers/games that aren't utilizing the devices potential.  Regardless, those games had poor sales and/or poor metacritic scores, so they can be ignored.

Of the 50 remaining, you have roughly 6 developers supporting the device, excluding microsoft... Ubi, Activision, ThQ, Sega, Konami and Mtv.  I also need to point out that many of the "original 50" are merely re-works of other games.... ubisoft has a rabbids party game, and thq has a biggest loser game, for example.

You can look up the games the support kinect, their sales figures and how well they sold.  As he already stated the only ones with a good metacritic score are the dance central games.  Those are the only non-pack-in games that have sold really well as well.  So you have two successful games in a year.  That isn't that great.  They did do amazingly well those two, I think about 3 mil a piece, but to put things into perspective, the "failure" that is the wii-balance board managed to push over 18 million copies of wii fit after it's first year.


Also just to dig the knife in a little deeper (because I'm awful that way.   )

From M$'s latest press conference "Kinect has shipped over 18 million units worldwide - that's shipped, not sold."

So the 18mil reference might not even be that valid.  


I'm sorry Randy, but your love for a basic 3d camera literally makes me laugh out loud whenver you talk about it.  Yes... a hd, 3d, camera is a pretty neat toy and you can do some really great things on it... if you hack it.... and run it on a pc... which actually has enough horsepower to do something with all the data it churns out.  Name one innovative thing it's done IN A GAME, over it's year run.  You can't.... because it hasn't.  The things it's being used for now were essentially done last gen via the eyetoy.  Mind you the kinect does a much better job, but you get my point.

[RandyT]

Tell that to Metacritic, Randy. Every system has shovelware. Kintect has it exclusively (almost).

If you need a website to tell you what to like and dislike, then I'm sure you can find some which are more favorable to the Kinect and it's games.  Would that change your mind about it?

Next time you are looking for an example of something, it might help to look at the part that comes immediately after the words, "For example:"

Next time you ask me to look at the example you provided, you might also note that I successfully disputed the one you provided, and which you conveniently ignored.

But maybe this will help: Grim Fandango, Psychonauts, Beyond Good and Evil. We could leave videogames too. Arrested Development, Shawshank Redemption. Sales is not the only measure of success.

No, but a major one.  One you are willing to conveniently ignore, unless discussing the Wii.

Anyway, without context absolute sales doesn't tell you much. You need context for the number to have any meaning.  18 million is a lot if you're talking about the number of dollars in your bank account, but not so much if you're talking about the number of dollars an oil company made in a year. The context here is a console add-on, a la the Sega 32x, Sega CD, N64 Memory Pack, etc.  I just don't see you providing any compelling evidence that 18 million is enough to render irrelevant the split market. 18 million is a subjectively large number. But 60 million is objectively larger. Publishers will put their money wherever they think it will generate the largest return. That seems pretty obvious. .

Now . . . if after all this time Kinect had a stable (or even a handful) of good games, I might be inclined to think that maybe 18 million really did surpass the magic number. But . . . Dance Central (1 and 2) is all there is. They are the ONLY games that made it out of 7 territory (which in Videogame review language is about the equivalent of a C or D grade). I guess I just don't see what in the world you're basing your position on.

Again, you are basing this on marks given by game reviewers who have a metric similar to your own.  Are you going to tell me that a title like Kinectimals, or other diversionary games aimed at a younger crowd, are unsuccessful because you are not part of that particular demographic?  Or that a game like Kinect Sports is unsuccessful because it does not hit high marks on your reviewers scale, even though it is fun and enjoyed by most who purchase it?  I think you just might.

And by the way, I wouldn't have an N64 without the memory upgrade, the Sega 32x made one of my then favorite games (Virtua Fighter) playable on the system, and the Sega CD was one of the first to offer FMV, and larger  games in general, to video gaming.  All of these things were pre-cursors to the modern gaming experience you are enjoying right now, and developed the market for products later introduced by their respective manufacturers.  If you want to look at non-sales metrics of success, you just mentioned 3 wildly successful items.

[RandyT]

When shmokes and myself are talking about "poor developer support" that is qualtifiable.  

Of your 74 games, 34 of them are ports form other systems.... since the kinect is such a unique device, those are obviously developers/games that aren't utilizing the devices potential.  Regardless, those games had poor sales and/or poor metacritic scores, so they can be ignored.

Of the 50 remaining, you have roughly 6 developers supporting the device, excluding microsoft... Ubi, Activision, ThQ, Sega, Konami and Mtv.  I also need to point out that many of the "original 50" are merely re-works of other games.... ubisoft has a rabbids party game, and thq has a biggest loser game, for example.

Just more "caveats" and artificial metrics of your own design

You can look up the games the support kinect, their sales figures and how well they sold.  As he already stated the only ones with a good metacritic score are the dance central games.  Those are the only non-pack-in games that have sold really well as well.  So you have two successful games in a year.  That isn't that great.  They did do amazingly well those two, I think about 3 mil a piece, but to put things into perspective, the "failure" that is the wii-balance board managed to push over 18 million copies of wii fit after it's first year.

So the balance board was a resounding commercial success.  The difference, however, between the balance board for the Wii and the Kinect is that there is still ongoing support and innovation happening for the Kinect.  Ergo, the Kinect is a much more successful product than the very commercially successful Wii balance board.  Correct?

I'm sorry Randy, but your love for a basic 3d camera literally makes me laugh out loud whenver you talk about it.  Yes... a hd, 3d, camera is a pretty neat toy and you can do some really great things on it... if you hack it.... and run it on a pc... which actually has enough horsepower to do something with all the data it churns out.  Name one innovative thing it's done IN A GAME, over it's year run.  You can't.... because it hasn't.  The things it's being used for now were essentially done last gen via the eyetoy.  Mind you the kinect does a much better job, but you get my point.

And I chuckle every time a fanboi compares the Kinect to an Eye Toy.

[Vigo]

And I chuckle every time a fanboi compares the Kinect to an Eye Toy.

And because Fanboy is spelt with an "i", you know it was written by someone who isn't a fanyboy themself. 

[shmokes]

And by the way, I wouldn't have an N64 without the memory upgrade, the Sega 32x made one of my then favorite games (Virtua Fighter) playable on the system, and the Sega CD was one of the first to offer FMV, and larger  games in general, to video gaming.  All of these things were pre-cursors to the modern gaming experience you are enjoying right now, and developed the market for products later introduced by their respective manufacturers.  If you want to look at non-sales metrics of success, you just mentioned 3 wildly successful items.

This has been my position all along. MS knew from the beginning that Kinect could never overcome the market split in this generation. The point was to legitimize the technology and position them, both from a technical and marketing standpoint, to compete in the next generation which would necessarily feature motion-based gaming. Same goes for Sony with the Move.

You're seriously misreading my posts if you think I'm applying a different standard to the Wii. When I point to the Balance Board's 22 million sold, I'm pointing that out as a failure as a development platform, in spite of selling even more than Kinect has sold. I guess I thought it pretty well goes without saying that nobody is releasing good content for the Balance Board.

BTW, critics have no problem giving good marks to good kid products. Have a look at the reception most Pixar films have received from the critical press. Or if you want to stick to videogames, look at the scores for many of the Lego games, or Pokemon games, or Mario Kart, or Kirby's Epic Yarn. I have no problem with games aimed at children. Hell, I run a website dedicated to reviewing videogames for children.

[shmokes]

And I chuckle every time a fanboi compares the Kinect to an Eye Toy.

Randy, Howard is about the biggest Microsoft fanboy on the planet. You're barking up the wrong tree.

[RandyT]

And because Fanboy is spelt with an "i", you know it was written by someone who isn't a fanyboy themself. 

If I know you are an adult you get the "i". 

Randy, Howard is about the biggest Microsoft fanboy on the planet. You're barking up the wrong tree.

I don't see it.  I'm not the biggest fan of MS on, oh, about 100 topics, but when I see them dump a ton of cash at great risk, into something innovative that pushes the envelope, then I have to give them credit.  There were a lot of folks who scoffed at MS when they entered the video game market as well.  Lots of hiccups along the way, and they kept pumping resources into it.  In the end, the gamers benefited. The Kinect is on the same path.